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The true problems with sorcs/sages(from a sage)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
The true problems with sorcs/sages(from a sage)

MagizZziaN's Avatar


MagizZziaN
01.27.2012 , 10:04 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by genesiser View Post
The problem with your argument is the bubble they get.

1 bubble more than makes up the armor difference of trooper vs sage with the amount of damage absorbed. Plus, with all their utility they also get an escape move via force sprint. Also, in case you weren't aware... Troopers do get an interrupt, just not the commando advanced class.

I'm not hating on sages, I just want an interrupt on my commando trooper.
That buble only takes top 1.5k dmg. And then im really generous. So ur point in this is pretty much invalid. Its just another utility to save ur ***. Troopers have heavy armor, sage/sorc light. Honestly you troopers are allready having an advantage. They should make other classes more competitive, instead of nerfing classes that aint really broken. Just not played well mostly.

If they keep nerfing classes, then im out of here so fast. I hated WoW for it. And im not going back in that endless cycle of screwing over a good game.

I love it here bioware, so please dont f*ck this game up...

Karenai's Avatar


Karenai
01.27.2012 , 10:27 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchAUstin View Post
I can tell you right now the biggest problem with the sorc/sage class is the hybrid spec potential.

Telekinetic spec offers good utility needed for the TK playstyle, the Root on the knockback, needed if you have 2-3 second casts, Force lift cooldown reduced, with longer lockout and increased shield all good if you are Telekeninetics spec.

Now that being said if you aren't TK spec you don't need all that utility.....

Balance offers some good utility as well, Lightning ticks make your next spell instant cast, force lift can stun, reduced CD on your main stun.

Thing is all of these utility talents are so LOW into the trees.

This is why you have people complaining that sorcs are SO OP because every sorc has ALLL of this utility, the utility designed for Telekinetics spec and the Utility designed for Balance spec into 1 hybrid that also deals MORE damage than any other class in the game....

So essentially what you have are sorcs with absurd utility combined with absurd damage and no other class comes close to being as good.

They are light years ahead of pre 1.1.1 Ops.
I am a hybrid sage. You are complaining about all this cool cc, because it is low in the trees.
Well let me tell you something: We do not spec all that cc.
It would be stupid and beside the point to put points into "all those great cc".
Why? Because those points are needed elswhere and are not so great either. It would gimp our damage way to bad.

I do not know what kind of "hybrids" you are meeting.

The only thing very much OP and very much needed, to even have the slightest chance vs. someone who is not a brain amputee is our shild. We are very, very squishy so we need it, but if you, like me, start to spam it on your team it is godly.

PS. dou you even know our cc? These skillpoints you mention are crap. 15sec cooldown on a 1min cooldown, for a cc that EVERYONE breaks. A cc that breaks from dots, from looking funny at the target. A cc that has a 2sec casttime.
10sec cooldown an a 1min cooldown stun, yeah...which holds up to 4sec and fills up the resolve bar to full.
2sec stun an a one minute cooldown cc, which makes it a 2sec stun, if the target had no cc whatsoever prior to that.

You want to talk about utility? Talk about meele stuns which stun you even with a full resolve bar. Talk about beeing stuck because some crazy lightsaber dude is jumping at you for what feels like seconds and stuns you right after that fnishing with several 5k+hits. Talk about meeles goining imune at 5% hp runing half the map to heal up. Talk about vanishing at 5% losing all dots and beeing imune to aoe. Talk about inivisible bomb defusing and planting. Talk about getting kicked or pulled into the green stuff in the pit, while your aoe kick has a huge delay and kicks what feels like half a meter.
Talk about cast delay for reps.

All that big numbers at the end of the match? Hover with you mouse over my damage. Biggest hit 3500 and that's if I am lucky and get my 3sec cast with all procs and every stim/trinket on a fresh lvl 50 target. Than hover over your damage with your 6k+hit or more.

slonep's Avatar


slonep
01.27.2012 , 10:28 AM | #23
Can we all agree that there is an overpopulation of posts like this in the forums?

I have a lvl 46 Sorc. I play PVP. I consider myself to be a slightly above average PVPer. I get wasted all the time by good players. I waste bad players all the time. I don't see and overpopulation of hybrid spec Sorcs. It seems to me that there are a bunch of different classes that have a bunch of different skills, some are powerful skills, some are not. You have to play smarter sometimes instead of saying the class is OPed. Try an interupt. Try teaming up on a guy. Where's the proof of this? Where are the Youtube vids of lvl 30 Sorcs/Sages laying waste to lvl 45 toons in warzones? I do well in PVP cause I play my *** off! I use every trick in my bag to make sure I win and that's how it should be.

Here's the situational mistake I see players make against me in PVP all the time....

If you like the mystery of why you're getting wasted by Sorc/Sages all the time read no further.

I'm on the edge of the battle. I cast Crushing Darkness, Affliction, and Death Field on you as you're attacking my teammate. You're already at 90% health. You then start your attacks on me. I interrupt your main skill, which you most likely lead with, and proceed to FL you to death because my DOTs have already got you down to 50% health and one of my teammates has also targeted you. You die. "GD Sorcs are overpowered" I see in /general. So you attacked me after I blindsided you (not a Sorc specific ability) and tried to rush me at 50%ish HP while my teammate and I destroy you and because my main DPS ability has a big flashy light it's my classes fault for being OP...

Similarly let me explain a situation I find myself in quite a bit. I'm running though a WZ. Suddenly I'm stunned by a stealthed Operative. I'm bubbled so that'll help a bit... I wait out the first stun and it lifts as I'm at 75% health. I pop a heal, stim, and both my relics. I'm stunned again. I can't break cause even though I thought it might my cool down from hasn't finished from the last time the Operative wasted me. Another enemy player joins in the fun. I’m stunned again. I die.

These are normal PVP interactions. There’s nothing OP’d about them. You shouldn’t be able to take out any character when you start your assault from a position of weakness.

If you're looking to spam two buttons all day and are under the impression that as you lvl up those two buttons should just get better and better until those two buttons are the best at whatever class abilities those buttons are used with... that's just not how MMOs are anymore. This is a modern MMO. Play more. Read more. Level up. Gear up. Try to have fun.

genesiser's Avatar


genesiser
01.27.2012 , 12:56 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by MagizZziaN View Post
That buble only takes top 1.5k dmg. And then im really generous. So ur point in this is pretty much invalid. Its just another utility to save ur ***. Troopers have heavy armor, sage/sorc light. Honestly you troopers are allready having an advantage. They should make other classes more competitive, instead of nerfing classes that aint really broken. Just not played well mostly.

If they keep nerfing classes, then im out of here so fast. I hated WoW for it. And im not going back in that endless cycle of screwing over a good game.

I love it here bioware, so please dont f*ck this game up...
A sage in epic gear will have about 16% dmg reduction, a trooper will have about 28% dmg reduction (unless in tank spec). The bubble absorbs around 2.5k, not 1.5k. The trooper takes an average of 12% less dmg per hit. Say people are hitting for 2k, it'll take about 12 hits taken to equal the amount the bubble absorbs.

So no, my argument isn't invalid.

Leiloni's Avatar


Leiloni
01.27.2012 , 01:12 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by genesiser View Post
A sage in epic gear will have about 16% dmg reduction, a trooper will have about 28% dmg reduction (unless in tank spec). The bubble absorbs around 2.5k, not 1.5k. The trooper takes an average of 12% less dmg per hit. Say people are hitting for 2k, it'll take about 12 hits taken to equal the amount the bubble absorbs.

So no, my argument isn't invalid.
Well I don't know where you got that 12 hits calculation from but I can tell you from playing both that the bubble is not as great in reality as it looks like on paper. Especially when you're stunned/cced while people beat right through your bubble. Then you're left with no bubble and a debuff so you can't reapply it and you go down fast because you're in paper armor. Merc on the other hand can withstand a lot of beating all the time and isn't reliant on a CD to do it.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1753652#edit1753270

lineschmidt's Avatar


lineschmidt
01.27.2012 , 01:24 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Caelrie View Post
And the war on utility continues...

Someday I might understand why MMO players hate utility so much and are so happy only being able to do one narrow little thing.
Because it's bad when only 1 class gets it all mmmkay?

Skuldar's Avatar


Skuldar
01.27.2012 , 01:50 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by lineschmidt View Post
Because it's bad when only 1 class gets it all mmmkay?
I don't see any class that "gets it all". Maybe Sorcs/Sages get more slices of the pie than other classes, but only one slice more than some in my opinion, and even then not a big slice more. Mercs/Commandos are very close behind in general utility, I'd say.

Part of the problem is that the balance picture differs between PvP and PvE. For example, Ops/Scoundrels were nerfed for PvP imbalance despite not having any great PvE advantage. I think Sorcs/Sages and Mercs/Commandos are a touch better other classes in PvE but not necessarily overpowered in PvP for those that properly deal with them.

genesiser's Avatar


genesiser
01.27.2012 , 02:56 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Skuldar View Post
I don't see any class that "gets it all". Maybe Sorcs/Sages get more slices of the pie than other classes, but only one slice more than some in my opinion, and even then not a big slice more. Mercs/Commandos are very close behind in general utility, I'd say.

.
I fail to see how mercs/commandos are "very close behind in general utility" than a sorc/sage. A sage has a 4 second stun, an aoe knockback, a 4 sec interrupt on 12 sec cd, a 10 sec cc that breaks on dmg on a 60 sec cd (pvp), their channeled spell also snares, and they can throw insta bubbles on other people.

A merc has a 4 sec stun, aoe knockback, and a 10 sec cc that breaks on dmg on a 60 sec cd an their channeled spell snares but where the sage snare starts as soon as they hit the button, the trooper version takes 1.5 seconds to start the snare. And last but certainly not least, they don't have an interrupt where as every single advanced class, even the other advance class you can choose for a trooper/bh has one.

It looks to me like a sage/sorc utility is light years beyond the merc/trooper.

Skuldar's Avatar


Skuldar
01.27.2012 , 03:06 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by genesiser View Post
I fail to see how mercs/commandos are "very close behind in general utility" than a sorc/sage. A sage has a 4 second stun, an aoe knockback, a 4 sec interrupt on 12 sec cd, a 10 sec cc that breaks on dmg on a 60 sec cd (pvp), their channeled spell also snares, and they can throw insta bubbles on other people.

A merc has a 4 sec stun, aoe knockback, and a 10 sec cc that breaks on dmg on a 60 sec cd an their channeled spell snares but where the sage snare starts as soon as they hit the button, the trooper version takes 1.5 seconds to start the snare. And last but certainly not least, they don't have an interrupt where as every single advanced class, even the other advance class you can choose for a trooper/bh has one.

It looks to me like a sage/sorc utility is light years beyond the merc/trooper.
I was only speaking about PvE utility. Sorry that I didn't make that clear. Where you see a disparity between CC, I see two classes both with a 60 second CC usable in combat so I give them equal scores on that count. I see one with light armor and interrupts, one with heavy armor and no interrupts, so to me that balances. I see both with spammable DPS if specced for it. I see both with heals. Sorc/Sage bubble is certainly better, but that's the small slice I referred to, I guess.

genesiser's Avatar


genesiser
01.27.2012 , 03:10 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Leiloni View Post
Well I don't know where you got that 12 hits calculation from but I can tell you from playing both that the bubble is not as great in reality as it looks like on paper.
If the sage dmg reduction is at 16% a 2k hit will hit for ~1724
If the trooper dmg reduction is at 28% (we are talking about dps trooper, not tank) then a 2k hit will hit for ~1562

A difference of ~162 dmg per hit.

A bubble absorbs around 2.5k dmg if talented for it in the middle tree.

For the trooper to have the same "damage absorbed" with their extra 12% dmg reduction, it would take ~15 hits of ~162 dmg reduction per hit to equal the amount absorbed by the bubble.

In other words, what I'm getting at is yes, while your bubble absorbs a little over 1 hit, the extra 12% dmg reduction basically lets a merc take 1 more hit than the sage if the sage did not use his bubble.

This whole notion that's out there that mercs can take a much bigger beating than sages because of their heavy armor is actually false because their ~12% less dmg taken only means about 162 less dmg per hit taken if people are hitting for 2k a shot.