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The Clone Wars (Old series and New Series) as cannon.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The Clone Wars (Old series and New Series) as cannon.

KryloKillian's Avatar


KryloKillian
01.22.2012 , 09:28 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Old? No, New? Yes

The old was pretty much nothing more then huge fight scenes, there wasn't really any backstory to it there were just bits and pieces of it.

The new has more story, and you get a feel for the characters as they are shown more and more throughout the show. Theres a perfect mix of both story and battles thrown in.
So Anakin's progression to the darkside fighting Asajj Ventress after she taunted him and wiped out his squad, or the black hand cave drawings when he saved those tribals from experimentation weren't character progression, nor was Grievous's lessons from Dooku about striking fear into the hearts of jedi to defeat them followed by doing just that to take down a group of five or six, but giving Anakin an apprentice blatantly, and admittedly, based entirely off of Lucas's own daughter who is made out to be a complete Mary Sue to the point of fighting Grievous to a stand still as a padawan is?

I mean, you're technically right. Old one isn't canon. Lucas struck it from canon when he created the CGI monstrosity, but your reasoning is basically ridiculous.
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good kick to the balls, kid.

tekkamansoul's Avatar


tekkamansoul
01.22.2012 , 10:16 PM | #12
My thoughts.

Old: It's got canonized battles and canonized events, maybe the whole thing doesn't adhere to Lucas' vision (what does), but the damn thing is only 2 hours long in the first place. It's got some great moments, and for me, it *is* canon. Plus its friggin Genndy Tartakovsky, the biggest mistake Lucas Enterprises made was -not- getting him to do the full series and instead switching to lifeless CG.

Keep in mind the only "real canon" is the movies. ( http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon if you need info on it )

New: I thought it was gonna be crap before I watched it, but it's got some really cool moments, and makes me care more about Anakin and the clone troopers than eps 1-3 ever have or will. For that reason, I consider it more 'canon' than parts of the prequel trilogy (lol midichlorians).

That said, I don't see how a four season (thus far) TV series can possibly be considered 'more' canon than a two-hour animation 'experiment'.

tl;dr Canon is what you make of it

Idunhavaname's Avatar


Idunhavaname
01.22.2012 , 10:48 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by bfishback View Post
The TV show is actually more canon than the games.

Game canon is on level with the books.
No book>game canon. Good example being TFU. Books will explain things opposed to the god power OP SOB character who steamrolls an army of stormtroopers and AT-AT.
.

RIP orange pixel

SeanC's Avatar


SeanC
01.22.2012 , 10:58 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Idunhavaname View Post
No book>game canon. Good example being TFU. Books will explain things opposed to the god power OP SOB character who steamrolls an army of stormtroopers and AT-AT.
C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

Basically I'm going to agree with the poster above you, canon is whatever you want to make it basically.

Theos_Braddock's Avatar


Theos_Braddock
01.22.2012 , 11:38 PM | #15
Old = Non Cannon / New = Semi Cannon

Reason for my choice is because I can not stand OP characters in ANY form.

Now it is true that the CGI version does have its far share of op moments; as mentioned above with Ashoka vs Grevious; but all that pales (imo) to the scenes from the animated version.

The one part were mace windu pretty much destroys an entire droid army single handedly; with his BARE HANDS no less; then takes out the droid super weapon in three seconds, followed by him force leaping to a nearby mountain top to get a drink is the most enraging.

That scene played out more like a Jedi Mountain Dew commercial than a cannonicly (sp?) accurate take on the Star Wars lore.

Also that scene with Grevious taking on the four (or was it five) jedi was a little over the top as well; espcecially when the cartoon show more or less tells the audience that General Grevious > the Star Wars version of an attack helicopter.

The animated version of the Clone Wars to me, sits on the same leve as the Force Unleashed video games. Pretty much a fanboy-ish take on jedi / sith and force powers in general.

I mean if mace windu was really that powerful then why even bother with the clone army? Just send him to each seperatist planet, and watch as he would proceed to faceroll the entire enemy army by himself.

More or less the animated clone wars series and the force unleashed games has given me a deep seated hatred of force users in general.

The whole: "Well, I have the Force so I automatically win at everything." veiwpoint is frustrating to me, and (IMO) does not match the way Jedi / Sith were portrayed in the OT.

/end nerd rage filled rant

EDIT:

One other thing I thought I would bring up concerning the GCI Clone Wars was the fact that the droids are mentally handicapped. I know I am stated as being against anything OP in a work of fiction but the opposite remains true as well.

Numerous times on the show Ashoka, Padme, Jar Jar, or some other character has confused droids about to capture them. Examples include but are not limited to pretending to be a bad guy with appropriate clearence, cause the droid to argue with each other and then slip by unnoticed, and sometimes even scaring the robots.

Granted this is a children's show and the droids operated the same way in Episode 3, but the fact that characters could bluff thier way past robots specifically designed and programed for the sole purpose of war is stretching it a little bit.

The most common explanation for this behavior is that the mass production of the droids have resulted in lower intelligence overall. While I can see this side to the subject; wouldn't the droids be more likely to shoot people on sight then ask questions, considering their function as BATTLE Droids.

The fact that Lucas gave the droids a "personality" in the form of having an actual personality detracts from the whole Clone Wars series as a whole (IMO). Not only because it makes the bad guys look like bumbling idiots, but it also doesn't speak very well of the Republic if it took them soooo long to win the war in the first place.

Maybe it's just my preference to robots like: The Terminator, or Warhammer 40K's Necrons that sets me against the light hearted CIS, but still the fact that they (droids) are called BATTLE DROIDS seems to detract from the seperatists over all.

Togruta-Padawan's Avatar


Togruta-Padawan
01.25.2012 , 05:37 PM | #16
Agreed on the droids part but as for Ahsoka in no way shape or form was she a match for him she was just trying to survive and escape she was extremely lucky, grievous probably underestimated her or was toying and didn't take out all 4 arms
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Bobinator's Avatar


Bobinator
01.25.2012 , 05:39 PM | #17
Old series, yes...because it was well done and great.

New series....**** no, its *********** CGI with gosh darn wooden puppets, I could care less about it.
As of right now, i'm rash free.

Kharnis's Avatar


Kharnis
01.25.2012 , 05:54 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by KryloKillian View Post
So Anakin's progression to the darkside fighting Asajj Ventress after she taunted him and wiped out his squad, or the black hand cave drawings when he saved those tribals from experimentation weren't character progression, nor was Grievous's lessons from Dooku about striking fear into the hearts of jedi to defeat them followed by doing just that to take down a group of five or six, but giving Anakin an apprentice blatantly, and admittedly, based entirely off of Lucas's own daughter who is made out to be a complete Mary Sue to the point of fighting Grievous to a stand still as a padawan is?

I mean, you're technically right. Old one isn't canon. Lucas struck it from canon when he created the CGI monstrosity, but your reasoning is basically ridiculous.
You have an example of Anakin's padawan fighting Grievous to a standstill, I trust? Oh, right. You don't. What you do have are scenes where she fights him for a grand total of fifteen seconds before she runs away as fast as she can.
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Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
01.25.2012 , 05:55 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by KryloKillian View Post
So Anakin's progression to the darkside fighting Asajj Ventress after she taunted him and wiped out his squad, or the black hand cave drawings when he saved those tribals from experimentation weren't character progression, nor was Grievous's lessons from Dooku about striking fear into the hearts of jedi to defeat them followed by doing just that to take down a group of five or six, but giving Anakin an apprentice blatantly, and admittedly, based entirely off of Lucas's own daughter who is made out to be a complete Mary Sue to the point of fighting Grievous to a stand still as a padawan is?

I mean, you're technically right. Old one isn't canon. Lucas struck it from canon when he created the CGI monstrosity, but your reasoning is basically ridiculous.
Theres many instances in the new show that shows Anakin's progression towards the darkside, moreso then the old series ever did. As for Grevious....he was such an OP character in that series, that im surprised he didn't kill Dooku or Sidious...infact im actually surprised that Mundi held as long as he did for backup to arrive.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

LukeDanger's Avatar


LukeDanger
01.25.2012 , 06:06 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Kharnis View Post
You have an example of Anakin's padawan fighting Grievous to a standstill, I trust? Oh, right. You don't. What you do have are scenes where she fights him for a grand total of fifteen seconds before she runs away as fast as she can.
This always gets me when people rail on Ahsoka vs Grevious; they keep forgetting that after a few seconds it's pretty clear that it's taking all she has just to avoid dying. Heck, she nearly died (would of if Anakin didn't have Rex set off the demo changes). Plus, I think Grevious was probably playing with his food, to be proverbial.

To put it in game terms; Grevious is about to take off the last bits of HP Rex had, so Ahsoka steps in and draws Grevious' aggro. Once she has it and Rex is clear, she runs like there's a crazed cyborg with multiple lightsabers after her so she doesn't get killed in a slug fest she can't win. Grevious follows her, Rex pumps out Adrenaline Rush (He's probably a Trooper) to patch up and gets the glowies with no baddies hanging around to be a problem

Anyways; I'm pretty much echoing the 'Old Series was really action, new one is more nuanced plot'. There definitely was plot in the 2D series, but it was definitely focused on action. Heck, IIRC there were some explanations that considerable chunks of the 2D series was meant to be propaganda, and some of it was made prior to Episode 3 (IE, Grevious in the 2D series was made before they finalized him for RotS), so there's that.

Really, it breaks down to this bulleted list, in my personal opinion.

2D Series:
- Action oriented; it's a thriller, no doubts about it.
- It had a good feel of the SW universe, even with less plot.
- The scale was definitely meant to be 'hundreds of guys at once'
- Overexadgerated a lot. I mean, FFS, Ventress, who's not exactly a hotshot like Anakin, taking out 24+ V-19 Torrents in a span of 5 seconds where explicit ace Jedi like Anakin need missiles to do the same? Artillery platforms exploding just because someone scratched it with a lance? Cool action none-the-less, but stuff like that really breaks your suspension of disbelief.

3D Series:
- Plot oriented. It certainly has its action (see Landing at Point Rain), but it is much more dedicated to story.
- It clearly shows characters as we really expected them to be. Anakin most notably probably benefited the most from TCW. He went from a whiner to being a hero, pretty much. A brooding hero with serious issues, but a hero none the less.
- (Likely due to budget reasons) The series scale is sometimes far too small for a battle; take the Bothuwai battle from Season 1 or the first round at Ryloth in "Storm over Ryloth". The Republic deploys what, 12 V-19 Torrents and the CIS only one squadron of droid fighters at a time? (Not counting cruisers). Kinda hurts your disbelief, but as time went on they got better at the scale.
- Too much of a hit/miss series. It's like a glass cannon. If it hits, it's awesome. If it misses... bring out the body bags. However, the misses are becoming much fewer as the team gets used to the series, so it's likely a lot of early misses were a case of early awkwardness. As episodes like "Rookies" show, from the begining they were capable of amazing things.