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Operative/Scoundrel from a Guardian's Perspective

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Operative/Scoundrel from a Guardian's Perspective

NickTo's Avatar


NickTo
01.22.2012 , 04:52 PM | #21
/signed!

Sith Sorc/ OP/ Trooper here!

BW TEST IT MORE!

Lagmonster's Avatar


Lagmonster
01.22.2012 , 05:10 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthChagras View Post
Don't get me wrong. But isn't that what WoW is, and it's highly successful. Community whines, Blizzard listens.
You know how many people I've seen over the years quit wow because of this method of doing things? To many to count

As no matter how much information is presented to them it doesn't change anything. Its nerf to the ground baby, and then years before anything will be addressed if something is under performing.

I won't be sticking around for years to finally be able to do true end game in Tor on my op as dps, when we are barely even a month into the game.

Gomfedj's Avatar


Gomfedj
01.22.2012 , 05:13 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by prochuvi View Post
this is the best sentence that i have read on these forums.
shadow can put the same number that the operative but he need cast clairvoyance 2 times and after use the cooldown to do 60 % more cirital on projectand then he can put 7-10k on 3 sec window as the operative,the problem is that the operative it is faceroll:knowdown,6k-3k-vanish-6k-3k
so it si pretty easy, nerf the burst dps and give some sustained or give them ram up time(hello retrys)
First wanna say i agree with the OP, very well thought out post instead of most of the stuff being posted saying "good job! qq more op/scounds!"....

I think this hits on a good point, there are not many scoundrels/operatives here would defend the fact you could double up on the stealth hit by using the vanish command, i for one think that the stealth opener command needs a good 10+ second cooldown (instead of NO cooldown like it has at the moment) a lot of em main say "yeah but we can only do that every 2-3 minutes" true, but honestly i don't think it was EVER intended to use that stealth opener twice in just a handful of seconds, in fact almost no mmo (that has a stealth/rogue/hidden class) allows that because that stealth opener is suppose to do about 20%-50% damage, most mmo's are like that stealth classes are ALL front loaded damage, if you allow that front load to go off twice well kiss almost ANY class in the game goodbye.

Now i know some will reply and say but but but! their cc breaker, they could knock back they could etc etc.. true... that is ALL true, if they CC break after the 1st attack, they can stand up, AND if they have a decent knock back they should get away.. but being a scoundrel myself (who has no knockback ability) i know if a operative wants to kill me, they are going too, simply due to the double opening stealth shot...

Escalith's Avatar


Escalith
01.22.2012 , 05:13 PM | #24
It's hilarious.

People are basing the fact that Ops/Scoundrels are OP on the fact that there's a video with a guy doing 10k crits.
All they really see is the huge number, 10k - omg, that's almost a one-shot.

Mayhaps so, but do people even know how that happened?

To hit 10k, he had 10%+ Expertise from gear, 15% Expertise from an Adrenal, 15% Expertise from a Warzone Buff, Surge from a Trinket, 20% increased damage from a Marauder - Hitting people that have no expertise aka are low level.

So, considering you can't stack Adrenal Expertise anymore, low levels aren't in the group anymore and the fact that you can't count an AoE buff that increases everyones damage into the rotation, because it's not that easy to set all that up - Also every other class also earns +20% to their damage.

So, if you reverse engineer that -

10k Crit on a level 20something player
-10% Expertise, normal for a 50 PvPer without BM Gear - 9k
You can not stack 2 15% Expertise Buffs anymore. - 7,650k
-20% from the Marauder buff that would increase anyones damage. - 6,120k
-20% damage nerf on Hidden Strike - 4,896k

The -20% Armor Pen is somewhat difficult to calculate, but it'd roughly remove another 300'ish damage off your first strike.


Thus, the burst stealth assassin does a wholly of 4,6k - on perfect conditions - after the nerf with their strongest ability that not only requires positional placement, yet also Stealth. And only if you manage to crit cause your crit chance will probably be only ~ 60% ish. If you don't crit and you have an average of 90% Surge - which should be normal for a lvl 50 decently geared Operative using a Surge Relic -

2203 damage on a non crit with out a hardest hitting ability.

And thats on a Sorc with no shield and not being guarded.
If they put up their shield and run around with it constantly it will fully negate your opener and if you crit it'll be for a number less than 1k.

This is quite clearly breaking the class. I can understand the time reduce on laying prone after hidden strike, I can even agree to lowering the damage or lowering the armor penetration - but 20% on BOTH is just overkill.


On the contrary, there are alot of videos showing Juggernauts without the 20% Marauder Buff hitting up to 9K AoE crits using a Rage spec. They can be reproduced every 21 seconds, require no positional alignment, do not require stealth.

If anything should be taken a look at it's balancing the Juggernaut trees before even touching a Burst Class that has less burst than a tank.

And as for Operatives bursting down people in 3-4 seconds flat being a tank and having a healer on them, that is just pure BS.

An Operative other than the initial crit does not hit hard enough anymore to kill someone that is being constantly healed. Let alone a tank that dodges, parries and shields most of the damage + has defensive cooldowns. Hell, you'll even have trouble killing a skilled, keyword -skilled- healing Sage on your own.



Oh, and as for the people whining "Once those 1,5 seconds are over I can't do anything anymore" - Yeah well, try to use your slow/root ability. Sever Tendon.


TL;DR
Post patch Operatives will hit like wet noodles in PvP
Juggernauts higher and less situational Burst
Stealth useless when dotted by a Sage/Sorc

Sathid's Avatar


Sathid
01.22.2012 , 05:29 PM | #25
If they go through with this i would really like to know what the true reasoning is,but i will not hold my breathe.

Fact is that the sorc/inquis/powertech already were doing a fine job taking our burst with gear on,now they will laugth at us and lets be honest those were the guys we targeted 90% of the time and those were guys that posted night and day to have us reduced and if this goes through they will have free reign,just watch.

Should our intial burst be toned down some,yes i agree to an extent but they should also give something back with these changes.

Add a buff that increases speed in or out of stealth for 5 sec's.

Increase the damage of Quick shot and grenade.

Lengthen Defense Screen some,

For the Operative i do not know the terms but same as above in relation.

Darth_WrathHeart's Avatar


Darth_WrathHeart
01.22.2012 , 05:34 PM | #26
I am a level 50 assassin champion geared tank with roughly 22k health with my rakata stim. I have gone up against some smugs that have nearly two shotted me. Now if im lucky enough to have my release trinket and every defensive cooldown ready I can usually eek a win from a geared smug. For anyone who thinks they do not need this nerf they either play as a smugg/op and dont want to lose their extreme burst power or simply don't know what they are talking about.

Azarii's Avatar


Azarii
01.22.2012 , 05:40 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_WrathHeart View Post
I am a level 50 assassin champion geared tank with roughly 22k health with my rakata stim. I have gone up against some smugs that have nearly two shotted me. Now if im lucky enough to have my release trinket and every defensive cooldown ready I can usually eek a win from a geared smug. For anyone who thinks they do not need this nerf they either play as a smugg/op or simply don't know what they are talking about.
.... I call total BS on this post. Unless you take off your gear mid-match and dance around.

Escalith's Avatar


Escalith
01.22.2012 , 05:42 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_WrathHeart View Post
I am a level 50 assassin champion geared tank with roughly 22k health with my rakata stim. I have gone up against some smugs that have nearly two shotted me. Now if im lucky enough to have my release trinket and every defensive cooldown ready I can usually eek a win from a geared smug. For anyone who thinks they do not need this nerf they either play as a smugg/op or simply don't know what they are talking about.
That's totally overexeggarated.

As I stated, alot of things have been changed in the patch already and OP's already suffered a -25% damage decrease due to the facts that you can't stack the expertise buffs anymore and you can't jump low level no expertise players.

If you're a champion geared tank with 22k health -

An even geared operative using hidden strike + cloaking screen + hidden strike will result in roughly 13k damage, blowing their cooldowns, stims, adrenals, relics. That's using their strongest attack twice and barely doing more than 60% health

And you whinge that you need to use your defensive cooldowns or similar to counter someone that is going ALL OUT with EVERYTHING they have?

1. It's not anywhere near to being 2-shot post patch 1.10
2. If someone goes all out and you are just herp derping doing nothing saying "I should be fine even if they go all out, I should just shrug it off and pat them on the head" you're delusional
3. You say that when you go all out you beat them as a tank.

Aka, on even terms using every cooldown and and going all out on fighting back you beat them - But that's not enough, you want to have an easy win on them? Without using cooldowns? Without even trying?

Yeah, right.

Herbey's Avatar


Herbey
01.22.2012 , 05:59 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by whitejackale View Post
I encountered full Battlemaster operatives when i was level 30 or so and lived to tell the tale.

Break cc, cc them, kite, win. Pretty easy.
This is clearly an operative / scoundrel spewing dribble

liquideyes's Avatar


liquideyes
01.22.2012 , 06:10 PM | #30
Im a Rank 60 Sorc and i have no prob to kill an Operative !!! I Have to kite ,dot, run , use near all of my Skills !! I say its not easy but after fight i stay with 50%+ life ... Maximum hit from an rank 60 operative was an 5k on me but its only the burst after that burst its defenetly to beat !

So stop QQing get same gear , learn to play ur class with all abilitys u have and u see that its possible to rip him !!

And now if u say , yeah but he uses stims etc ... for all PVPlers its a must have, to have this job !!!