Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

The real reason Empire is more popular than Republic

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
The real reason Empire is more popular than Republic

Lesaberisa's Avatar


Lesaberisa
09.18.2013 , 10:14 PM | #241
Incidentally, Bleeters, I agree about the Agent. It's probably the one story on the Imperial side where I felt like the player character was genuinely doing the most they could to "do right" by the galaxy (the LS SW was spoiled by knowing what the Emperor was actually up to, so it felt more like my LS SW was kind of being played).

Quote: Originally Posted by BradTheImpaler View Post
Loaded description, how? Tai Cordan was an opportunist who was simply installed by the Republic, and his attitude toward Zenith (sending him away, etc.) only proves this. I don't know where you get the idea he "doesn't want power").
How about the fact he actually doesn't want to be even the temporary head of the government because he feels inadequate. You also seem to have missed the point of why he sends Zenith away - it's because Zenith is a violent man that will upset any chance at rehabilitation for Balmorrans who collaborated with the Empire. Zenish is upset about it because....he wants to kill the collaborators. Trying to peacefully reintegrate people into Balmorran society so it actually functions isn't a power grab.

Quote:
The Alderaanian peace movement...don't get me started on those damn nobles. If he really wanted to help he'd have wiped them out and liberated Alderaan. Both factions are guilty of picking sides in a war where regular Alderaanians lose.
Your first sentence...uhh. As for your second, that only emphasizes the beneficial nature of the consular's presence - to ensure the talks go on in some form to try to broker a deal to make things better. Killing everyone (lol) would just make everything far worse and is something an Imperial or Sith might do.


Quote:
I guess the galaxy would have been just fine with the Star Cabal roaming around!
And the galaxy would have been just fine with the Imperial head of state getting exactly what he planned, were it not for the Knight, right? Again, the Agent (even if you assume they act solely out of some kind of altrustic motivation to save the galaxy) is hardly representative of the Empire, particularly given the rather strange way you tried to downplay the consular.


Quote:
In the core? No, I said outside of the Core. If you'll recall the Senators who walked out in protest before the start of the war. In any case, I've made my point about Coruscant and the sorry state of its undercity as well.
No, read what I quoted. You specifically stated "most of the citizens in the Core were left to rot". Maybe it was a typo, but it's not supported either way.


Quote:
The Republic is guilty of militarism and slavery, too.
Militarism, at times yes. Though that's largely due to the Empire, you know, invading and causing widespread devastation. Slavery is illegal in the Republic.


Quote:
As for your question, as I've said before it's the nature of the repression that means the Empire might motivate people toward fighting for something better. In the Republic, "peace" means ordinary citizens will be a lot more pacified under a bureaucratic regime and unwilling, even if able, to get rid of it.
This doesn't make any sense. There's no accepted dissent in the Empire; people who do dissent are jailed/tortured/enslaved/killed. I'm also unclear how "the Republic has a bureaucracy" logically leads to "people are unwilling to change and are pacified" when the Republic storyline includes multiple examples of correcting corruption and Republic citizens/personnel/politicians acknowledging the need to do better.

Quote:
If you're struggling to understand, I can't help you understand. Canon doesn't change the nature of the Republic, and in fact nowhere in canon is it stated that the Republic is incorruptible, so you are completely incorrect.
That would be convincing....if I ever said it was incorruptible. I said I couldn't understand why you seem to think political corruption that is seen as an ill to be cured by the Republic is comparable to Imperial slavery, atrocities and lack of respect for individual life or rights. I understand you're trying to be glib here, but the moral calculus of your argument is...disturbing.

Quote:
If that's how you feel, then let's get rid of the Republic, too. That would be a lot easier under the conditions that it faces when fighting the Empire, and that's why the Empire is a means to an end, even if as an end in itself it would be evil.
Except the only one claiming the Republic is 'morally bankrupt' is you, based on a mixture of conjecture and miapplication of in-game events. You still have yet to provide any kind of coherent reason for why political corruption is worse than an openly violent and morally reprehensible political system that routinely commits abuses worse than the Republic as a matter of course. So far, you've come up with "Well at least they're open about it".


Quote:
I answered the third question enough above. As for the legal system, anyone who knows what happens to the Republic knows that legal bureaucracy is a barrier, not an advantage, in getting rid of corruption.
Are you referring to Palpatine? If so, that's utterly irrelevant to discussions about the Republic in this era, don't you think?

Leaving that aside, I'm again completely baffled as to how "There's a system in place to deal with corruption that may not always work" is morally worse than "There's no system in place to correct corruption and if you bring it up you are likely to be killed or face other negative consequences".


Quote:
Re your first question: In the Republic. Until you understand this point you won't really grasp anything else I say.
Except you haven't made any kind of point other than to balance corruption and bureaucracy against torture, slavery, murder, the lack of legal due process and individual rights (oh, and corruption and bureaucracy) and apparently declared them either equal or somehow determined that the former is worse. That strikes me as a skewed moral scale, not a point.


Quote:
Alright, I will. The fact that political corruption can exist means the majority of people are denied the ability to govern themselves and to work for the common good rather than the enrichment of an elite (whether a mgocracy, nobility, etc.). That's the quick summary of it.
Except there is involvement and efforts made to improve things in the Republic. There is no legal or political recourse in the Empire. As Elara points out in her conversations, the same Imperials who talk about honor and the rules gladly put them aside when the Sith say so, and questioning that gets your loyalty questioned (and Elara herself was part of the Imperial elite, yet still faced that scrutiny). Your argument also falls flat on its face given the overarching theme of the Republic story is that its various members do come together for the common good and that because of that it enjoys a strength of purpose the Empire can't hope to match.


Quote:
Nope, from a quest on Coruscant as a Consular. They're pretty open about it.
What quest? And where's the evidence given that the Republic story includes helping many groups that are hardly oligarchs -

Spoiler


Even leaving aside your poorly supported argument about the Republic, how is this a point in the Empire's favor? The Empire is all about oligarchy, and its oligarchs don't even pretend to care about anyone else.


Quote:
The loss of the Emperor, whatever his true nature, struck a blow to Imperial morale, and the Dread Masters are doing damage to both sides, which the Empire naturally can't afford. Not to mention the manipulations of the star Cabal on Corellia. Still, you might actually be on to something here, but I'd have to be sure the personal abuse of power went unchecked to the point it did much damage relative to these other problems.
Darth Marr specifically tells you that Sith in-fighting was a severe problem in the intro to Makeb. The Inquisitor story on Corellia revolves around this. The events on Ilum are an example of the Imperial war effort being undermined by a power struggle. The SW storyline's main villain is guilty of undermining the Imperial effort to make a power play.


Quote:
Yeah, my wording was a bit vague because I was trying to keep it shorter, but what I mean is the Empire has precedent for removing corrupt persons in a way the Republic wouldn't dream of.
No...it doesn't. When those people are removed it's because of Sith/political power plays, not any kind of civic duty. (Minor trooper spoilers)

Spoiler



Quote:
1. Yes, it is.
No, you're claiming the Senate is corrupt based on what, the threeish senators out of several thousand that are corrupt.

Quote:
2. Democracy.
Direct democracy, I assume? Your language is imprecise here.

Quote:
3. It wouldn't, but I never said it would (I said quite clearly it's not something I'd expect but it was for the sake of argument about the Republic).
Why even mention it? LEaving that aside, the Senate clearly does have procedures in place for dealing with issues, including investigations, trials, etc. Things the Empire doesn't bother with. Of course, the "superior" Empire also doesn't bother with things like individual rights or a participatory political system either.


Quote:
Anyway, no, I don't have a pessimistic view of democracy. You're just confusing oligarchy (i.e. the Republic has nobles) for genuine democracy.
Again, your language is imprecise. Having nobles has nothing to do with being a democracy (also, are you talking about ranks of nobility from individual planets here?), unless you think countries like the United Kingdom in the present day world aren't democracies?

And you may not think you have a pessimistic view of democracy, but you definitely come across that way, seeing as the Republic has some pretty close parallels to modern day countries.

Quote:
That is the point, though. The Empire doesn't disguise its true nature and so there are oppressed people who would be more willing to take matters of governance into their own hands. In the Republic, they are confused as you are about what their system really is.
This doesn't make any sense on either end. There aren't any people taking up matters of governance in the Empire, they're not allowed to. If they try they get crushed. I have no idea what you're trying to say about the Republic because you're making an argument based on conjecture that has no substantive basis in-game.

Quote:
Gotten worse, perhaps, but it existed beforehand. Anyway, the part I bolded is the central flaw in your argument and we're approaching this from very different positions as a result.

Inequality, of the sort I'm talking about especially, is socially constructed in both the Empire and Republic at the expense of average people.
Except, of course, the Imperial rigidly enforces that inequality to maintain its political order, while a Republic citizen has the potential to change things in a variety of ways. There's a pretty significant difference between a system where inequality is an intended and desired goal and one where it occurs but isn't seen as a good thing.


Quote:
I recall a couple of those remarks on Hoth, but that's about it.
I'm not sure how you missed the repeated racist remarks Imperials make, even directly to a non-human (or non-pureblood in some cases) Imperial player character. Talking about Cathar on Taris as feral beasts to be put down? Discussing the inferiority of non-humans to an alien player character (followed by a "Oh, but you are different" line). No offense, but it's hard to take you seriously if you missed such a core aspect of the Empire, one that drives Malgus to declare his own Empire and that Marr addresses as well.

Put another way, if there's supposedly no institutionalized racism in the Empire, why is one of Marr's major points the need to set institutionalized racism aside and accepte non-humans that were traditionally discriminated against into the Imperial military?


Quote:
Corruption-free? No. They were fighting each other, sure, but isn't that the difference between this and Palpatine's Empire? They can keep each other in check. One Sith with no real challenger is not kept in check.
I don't understand why you bring up Palpatine when he has nothing to do with this argument. Ignmoring that, you initially claimed that the Empire was superior because it didn't tolerate corruption and was able to better focus its resources for the war effort. I pointed out that this was incorrect and that, in fact, Sith-infighting and inefficiency was a principal cause for the Imperial defeats thus far in the war.



Quote:
I know the prequels are unpopular, but give them a look. Even in this game, based on a couple of conversations in the Senate, it's well-established.
The prequels occur millenia after this game's time period. They're not relevant.


Quote:
What?
I'm not sure what's hard to understand. You take the gangs being on Coruscant to mean "The Republic doesn't care about its citizens and is awful", apparently ignoring the fact that the Republic quests are about the Republic getting its act together to show it does care and does intend to take care of its citizens (a theme reinforced at various points in the consular and trooper storylines in particular). Similarly, you confalte a corrupt Senator with the entire Senate being corrupt, even introducing arguments based on the movie prequels that have nothing to do with the game.


Quote:
By massacring political dissidents? Anyway, again you're confusing democracy with oligarchy.
Bleeters describes it perfectly, so I'd recommend reading their post. The entire point of the story is that the Republic admits what it did was wrong and tries to make amends. The Imperial side of things is "we should have thought of it first".

Your second sentence makes no sense, because you seem to confuse "there are nobles in the Republic" with "the nobles/oligarchs run the Republic".

Quote:
No, it didn't, and didn't pretend to care about those it hurt.
How about the people of Uphrades? The civilians on Balmorra unjustly thrown in the Gorinth Brig? The war crimes committed on various planets?

Again, why is it that openly committing atrocities isn't clearly worse for you than occasional corruption that people admit is wrong and try to fix?


Quote:
You should be, because this is not "political corruption in a democracy that is actively combated as part of the faction storyline".
Except, the Republic characters do combat corruption multiple times. Refusing to acknowledge that doesn't make it untrue.

Quote:
Maybe you didn't say it. I thought someone did. Let's just say the Empire relies entirely on hard power. The Republic uses soft power (I.e. hegemony) to mask inequalities and exploitation.
Again, why does that make the Empire preferable in any way? Your entire argument amounts to "Well the Republic deceives people into thinking it's a (direct?) democracy so it's worse than the Empire where complaining about corruption gets you enslaved or shot." You seem really hung up on the "insiduous" nature of the Republic's ills while ignoring the substantively worse circumstances the average person in the Empire lives in.

Put another way, let's assume every argument you've made about the Republic is true; it's a hypocritical oligarchy that doesn't actually believe in the ideals it claims to espouse.

The Empire is guilty of all of the above.

1. It's hypocritical - as Elara points out, a lot of Imperials will go on and on about how the Imperial military (and Empire in general) are morally right, honorable etc. (also see Quinn, General Rakton, etc.). Apparently the atrocities and war crimes they commit both of their own volition and at the behest of the Sith don't count, nor does it matter to you that people who point out that hypocrisy are treated as traitors

2. It is an oligarchy, run by the Sith who are plenty 'insiduous' themselves and guilty of endless numbers of crimes. Also, the head of the oligarchy, our dear Emperor

Spoiler


So it's an oligarchy run by a bunch of crazy beings with superpowers that have no moral qualms about doing awful things. Fun!

3. It doesn't practice the ideals it claims to uphold. See #1. Also consider how often Imperial NPCs blather on about bringing order to the galaxy...whily they run around destroying things 'for the evulz' and undermiining their own Empire as part of power struggles (Corellia, SW storyline, SI storyline, etc.)

Then let's throw on the greater context - the Empire has institutionalized racism, slavery, corruption, no legal protections for the average citizen, etc.

Tell me again how ithe Empire is a lesser evil when it takes all of the negative traits the Republic has, amplifies them by a power of ten and then throws more stuff onto the pile?
Finest mediocre fanfic this side of the Outer Rim:Trooper / Inquisitor

Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
09.18.2013 , 10:23 PM | #242
Quote:
No, you're claiming the Senate is corrupt based on what, the threeish senators out of several thousand that are corrupt.
To be fair, I think that's all of the senators who are involved with missions on Coruscant. In terms of narrative presentation, what we see of the Senate is decidedly corrupt.

And more on topic with this thread... I was sitting here and thinking "why is it that playing through on the Republic side is sort of uninspiring? After all, all of my Mass Effect runs are completely Paragon; it's not that being a hero is boring." And then I realized: the Republic has had noticeably little work put into how it runs on a day-to-day level. The Empire... either has had more such thought put into it, or simply provokes more because it's such a different society that you have to wonder how things work. The ability to integrate into both societies and get sort of a picture of their typical inhabitants is woefully low (this is one thing ME did quite well even with just background conversations; TOR is all military, all the time), but the Empire has a sort of allure to it that doesn't require you to empathize with it, as you can sort of just enjoy being the dark one; the Republic, meanwhile, being the more heroic side, sort of requires you to empathize with the society you're defending to get the most out of it, but I have a hard time actually achieving that with the rather paltry amount we got.

Lesaberisa's Avatar


Lesaberisa
09.18.2013 , 10:46 PM | #243
Quote: Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
To be fair, I think that's all of the senators who are involved with missions on Coruscant. In terms of narrative presentation, what we see of the Senate is decidedly corrupt.
There's only four senators I can recall specific to Coruscant.

Spoiler


Given that the Coruscant storyline is specifically about the Republic essentially getting its groove back and getting back on track, I don't think it makes sense to say "2-3 Senators are corrupt, therefore they all are."

Moving on to class missions

Smuggler spoilers
Spoiler


Trooper spoilers
Spoiler


There's also the guy on Belsavis, who you can expose.

So, including everyone that''s six senators out of hundreds/thousands, and you can turn all of them in and have them investigated and/or arrested.

Unless I'm missing someone, every other senator you work with or run into is basically doing their job or better (even if they're annoying, like Krasul).

Quote:
the Empire has a sort of allure to it that doesn't require you to empathize with it, as you can sort of just enjoy being the dark one; the Republic, meanwhile, being the more heroic side, sort of requires you to empathize with the society you're defending to get the most out of it, but I have a hard time actually achieving that with the rather paltry amount we got.
I can sort of get that. The Republic seems to be modelled pretty closely after a modern representative democracy, so I can understand why people might not find it terribly exciting. Some stuff is different than the world around us (i.e. Jedi, the galactic scale), but the "evils" of the Republic are generally pretty mundane when you're looking at its political structure/every day life.
Finest mediocre fanfic this side of the Outer Rim:Trooper / Inquisitor

Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
09.18.2013 , 10:48 PM | #244
Fair enough. I completely forgot that the person working with the Gree was in fact a senator.

I should continue the Consular story... but the female voice acting is rather meh, and I don't play male characters.

Any thoughts on the second part of my post?

Lesaberisa's Avatar


Lesaberisa
09.18.2013 , 11:02 PM | #245
The consular story ... is interesting to me. I think the ideas behind it are very interesting - your companions all challenge a LS Consular in some way, the story (particularly Acts 2/3) was interesting to me because you tackle issues that may not be glamorous but are essential to the Republic. The Knight is the superhero for the Republic, but it's the Consular that's going around forging alliances, rebuilding relationships, being a diplomat, etc.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that translates well to an MMO (it might have worked better in a single player RPG where it could have been explored more thoroughly), and it's not the kind of story that's going to appeal as much to the average gamer as the Knight story (where, again, you're basically The (Wo)Man ).

The voice acting definitely didn't help either, my consular sounded almost bored with what she was doing. They also made a mistake in having both romances (I don't count Tharan) show up so late in the story - I liked Felix, but the romance felt very poorly paced.

I don't know, it's not my favorite story (and definitely not my favorite voice acting), but I appreciate what they tried to do.

As to your point about the Empire and Republic - I sort of responded with my ninja edit to my previous post
Finest mediocre fanfic this side of the Outer Rim:Trooper / Inquisitor

Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
09.18.2013 , 11:04 PM | #246
Quote: Originally Posted by Lesaberisa View Post
The consular story ... is interesting to me. I think the ideas behind it are very interesting - your companions all challenge a LS Consular in some way, the story (particularly Acts 2/3) was interesting to me because you tackle issues that may not be glamorous but are essential to the Republic. The Knight is the superhero for the Republic, but it's the Consular that's going around forging alliances, rebuilding relationships, being a diplomat, etc.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that translates well to an MMO (it might have worked better in a single player RPG where it could have been explored more thoroughly), and it's not the kind of story that's going to appeal as much to the average gamer as the Knight story (where, again, you're basically The (Wo)Man ).

The voice acting definitely didn't help either, my consular sounded almost bored with what she was doing.

I don't know, it's not my favorite story (and definitely not my favorite voice acting), but I appreciate what they tried to do.
Indeed. The Consular story is definitely a nice change, but from what I can see of it, there's just not quite enough done with it. TOR is a game dominated by that: good ideas that fall short. It's a good story in-universe, but TOR can't tell it well enough.

BradTheImpaler's Avatar


BradTheImpaler
09.19.2013 , 12:01 AM | #247
You know what, your post is so riddled with non-sequiturs and strawman arguments that I'm going to just agree to disagree, because you seem more bent on attacking me than trying to understand anything I say in spite of that fact that you say you don't understand. This as an endless wall of text going nowhere, and I'm gonna opt out. Have a nice day.
In the Imperial Army, it takes more courage to retreat than to advance.

AlexDougherty's Avatar


AlexDougherty
09.19.2013 , 03:18 AM | #248
Quote: Originally Posted by BradTheImpaler View Post
You know what, your post is so riddled with non-sequiturs and strawman arguments that I'm going to just agree to disagree, because you seem more bent on attacking me than trying to understand anything I say in spite of that fact that you say you don't understand. This as an endless wall of text going nowhere, and I'm gonna opt out. Have a nice day.
Assuming your talking about Lesaberisa's post, then you're wrong.

Firstly, she tackled your arguments precisely and logically, her argument is fair and solid, which to be fair your argument wasn't.

Secondly, she never attacked you, she attacked and destroyed your argument, but she never said anything about you.

Thirdly, you also used the wall of text approach in creating your argument, so to criticise someone for countering it in the same style is so gauche. Of course she used more text, because she was responding to your argument, which naturally took more to respond to, it's a law of discourse, unless you use one word answers you use more text to respond.
Peace can be found, above all passions. Through passion, I may gain strength.
Through strength, I may gain power. Through power, I may gain victory.
But for every enemy fallen, a new foe rises.
For every chain broken, new chains bind me. Only the Force can set me free.

Xakthul's Avatar


Xakthul
09.19.2013 , 03:24 AM | #249
Why is there now a political argument over why people play the factions that they do?
Duelist Mixalot, Grand Champ Tellsa, Lord Saml, Apprentice Syynx, Captain Cirris, Skirmisher Janewei, Jedi Knight Jugger'not, Agent Ez'zio of <Wookies and Cream>, Harbinger
"Aim for the trolls! Kill the trolls!"- Gandalf

AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
09.19.2013 , 04:34 AM | #250
Quote: Originally Posted by BradTheImpaler View Post
"The Empire faction lacks substance and depth"? The Agent story and character has far, far more depth than the Consular, as just one example.
And that's why I hate the Empire - the Empire got all of the good stuff.