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I'm beginning to think Kreia was right -- the Force is sick

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
I'm beginning to think Kreia was right -- the Force is sick

LogicalPremise's Avatar


LogicalPremise
01.02.2012 , 07:28 AM | #1
Having played some different toons now, both Sith and Jedi, Empire and Republic, I'm starting to get the idea that the Force is much more messed up than I think it should be.

There are too many "greyish" situations where motivation seems to be more important than action, which seems backwards. Saving one life at the cost of millions is not a light side act. Condemning hundreds of soldiers to death from wounds to save a handful of thieving refugees who will die anyway if the soldiers are overrun is not a lightside act. Being unwilling to break rules , when those same rules are being used by a corrupt senator to results that could kill thousands, is very simply not a light side act.

Yet I am not saying BW fludged those assignments of LS/DS points. Not at all. I think Kreia was very right when she said the Force needed to be destroyed or purged. I think it's completely imbalanced in the time of the game, to the point where it is completely warped.

LS / DS points are just supposed to be an informal way to track your character progression, and to indicate which acts have consequences. But imagine if you didn't have the little LS / DS indicator there, gently informing you that kissing is a darkside act roughly equivilent to shooting someone in the head. What if you just played through and were only able to track your LS/DS level once you reached thresholds of 1000?

One would end up thinking the Force was merely twisting people to it's own ends. And I think it is. Most of the LS choices do nothing to avert war. On the contrary , too many of them seem shortsighted and will end up in the Republic back in the same mess it was before the Treaty of Coruscant. And that's what the Force wants, because it wants the Sith destroyed, regardless of the cost to various innocent lives.

The Force is not "good". Kreia was right.
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Gably's Avatar


Gably
01.02.2012 , 11:02 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by LogicalPremise View Post
Having played some different toons now, both Sith and Jedi, Empire and Republic, I'm starting to get the idea that the Force is much more messed up than I think it should be.

There are too many "greyish" situations where motivation seems to be more important than action, which seems backwards. Saving one life at the cost of millions is not a light side act. Condemning hundreds of soldiers to death from wounds to save a handful of thieving refugees who will die anyway if the soldiers are overrun is not a lightside act. Being unwilling to break rules , when those same rules are being used by a corrupt senator to results that could kill thousands, is very simply not a light side act.

Yet I am not saying BW fludged those assignments of LS/DS points. Not at all. I think Kreia was very right when she said the Force needed to be destroyed or purged. I think it's completely imbalanced in the time of the game, to the point where it is completely warped.

LS / DS points are just supposed to be an informal way to track your character progression, and to indicate which acts have consequences. But imagine if you didn't have the little LS / DS indicator there, gently informing you that kissing is a darkside act roughly equivilent to shooting someone in the head. What if you just played through and were only able to track your LS/DS level once you reached thresholds of 1000?

One would end up thinking the Force was merely twisting people to it's own ends. And I think it is. Most of the LS choices do nothing to avert war. On the contrary , too many of them seem shortsighted and will end up in the Republic back in the same mess it was before the Treaty of Coruscant. And that's what the Force wants, because it wants the Sith destroyed, regardless of the cost to various innocent lives.

The Force is not "good". Kreia was right.

I want to say that I don't really think that LS wants Sith destroyed, and DS wants Jedi destroyed. During my quest line, my actions of letting Jedi flee instead of killing them was considered a LS act (I am playing Imperial Agent). LS/DC determines your characters alignment, it's not connected to Force in any way. All classes have DS/LS points. A Sith Warrior can be fully 'light' aligned.

Although, while I was playing Jedi Consular during the beta testing, leaving a Jedi couple in love without letting the other Jedi know about it turned out to be a DS act (since learning the ways of the Force doesn't allow such relationships, at least that's what those 'Jedi masters' told me, which I find wrong). For such classes, or just in certain situations DS/LS is connected to the Force, but all in all, it's not, and shouldn't be.

Motivationman's Avatar


Motivationman
01.02.2012 , 12:22 PM | #3
If you look back at the Dural story recap videos you will see that the entire casus belli for this war was the attempted genocide of the sith by the republic/jedi.

cioran's Avatar


cioran
01.02.2012 , 12:32 PM | #4
Did you read Unifying Force? You may like that. Goes into this more.

And yeah, I'm racking up those DS points.
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JawaJedi's Avatar


JawaJedi
01.02.2012 , 03:03 PM | #5
Well your clearly referencing two quests, and frankly I completely disagree with you.
The one on Ord Mantell:
The Military on Ord Mantell is absolutely corrupt. Even as a trooper you see most of them are corrupt. Essentially, those medical goods are stolen from the refugees as well as they were "taxed" (read: extorted) on the way in. Not only is this illegal, but in most militaries this would earn you a dishonerable discharge.
Now, you may argue that the soldier protect the refugees and its fair the refugees pay towards it, but they're doing it the same way as the mafia would. By returning the medical goods to the military, you are 100% NOT supporting the protection the military is offering, but rather blind obedience to a system, and condoning its inherant corruption.
Anything beyond what would happen-the early ending of the war or further damage done to the refugees is conjecture, and thus does not have a place.

As for the senator quest, essentially, the lightside action is not breaking the rules to stop as a senator from trying to gather emperical support. I'd like to point out the action which does break the rules requires a self important arrogance-the same Anakin Skywalker has. I've heard the arguement "the Jedi are always right", but that's not true. And that's how a Jedi falls-he believes himself above the rest. Additionally, the future is not conjecture here, as the darkside action implies the senator actually gains strength through reenergization after you stop him.


Now, as for all the stuff about the force, I don't know. The Force certainally works in odd ways, I've always viewed it as neutral thoughtless-but not urgeless-sort of identity. Thus it can grow attached to certain individuals (Atton is fool, but a fool the force looks after), but has no master plan. Which I believe would go more under the Living Force. Which focuses essentially "living in the moment", which I suppose would reason why I find these results acceptable and you would not.
Quote: Originally Posted by Saevio View Post
I haven't understood anything anyone has said in this thread so far. That's common on these forums though.

Sylentmana's Avatar


Sylentmana
01.02.2012 , 03:41 PM | #6
The Force is not evil. It's just fickle.

Krafen's Avatar


Krafen
01.02.2012 , 04:02 PM | #7
I've encountered enough LS/DS choices that made me think "what!?" that I have given up and just choose the side I am following for that character. Many DS/LS choices seem shoehorned into otherwise decent storylines. Its as if the writers feel compelled to offer an alignment choice at the end of most stories, regardless of whether such a choice makes sense.

JawaJedi's Avatar


JawaJedi
01.02.2012 , 04:24 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Krafen View Post
I've encountered enough LS/DS choices that made me think "what!?" that I have given up and just choose the side I am following for that character. Many DS/LS choices seem shoehorned into otherwise decent storylines. Its as if the writers feel compelled to offer an alignment choice at the end of most stories, regardless of whether such a choice makes sense.
I will agree that sometimes I feel like a choice was forced. On Hoth I was forced to say whether I thought the Lt. did a good job....there was no way around it, even though the question was "Do you have anything you'd like to say"...but whatever.
Quote: Originally Posted by Saevio View Post
I haven't understood anything anyone has said in this thread so far. That's common on these forums though.

Erstok's Avatar


Erstok
01.02.2012 , 04:43 PM | #9
Understanding the force in a human mindset is equivalent to understanding any omnipotent religious deity. Force picks no side, it has no reason to. Doesn't have to fight for power, strive for food and glory, or anything. As the Jedi say, the force has a will of it's own.

Humans look at thing in a human capacity. Pure n' simple.
Computers are like Old Testament gods; lots of rules and no mercy. ~Joseph Campbell
Man only likes to count his troubles; he doesn't calculate his happiness. ~Fyodor Dostoyevsky

Rainfeather's Avatar


Rainfeather
01.02.2012 , 04:48 PM | #10
If you spend too long on the long term outcomes and distant correlations every action has you'll ultimately get no where in a time frame that matters.

Im not a lore buff in any sense but hasn't the slow pace of decision making by those who like to 'consider' the long game been a subject of endless debate both in and out of stories?

Ultimately I like to see doing whats right or wrong as a very specific thing. Unique to the moment. Every decision has a larger perspective or 'cost' that could have various outcomes but that doesnt change right from wrong on the smaller level.

Help some one or don't. Theres various beliefs on it. Yet ultimately its pretty obvious that most negative actions are exactly that and vice versa. In a choice to save someones life or not, you should be looking at the individual or the 'life' of that person as important beyond all measure. It may not account for situations where you can save one person or another one depending on choice, yet if you look too far ahead or too broadly you risk getting so muddled in confusion that nothing actually gets done at all.

Bottom line. You do the best you can at the time. You stick to your beliefs and if in your heart your intentions were 'light' minded or 'dark' minded this defines you because we cant be perfect. Just aspire to be close to it. We look too much for that perfect outcome, when ulitmately things are forced on us at times. They arent choices they are ultimatums that we have little control over.

Emotions are a hard thing to battle. Very much at the core of real life as well as with SWTOR.
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