Perhaps a different perception of pvp will harmonize better with your "builder" self.

 

You're not conquering, you're deconstructing reds.

Haha, good idea, but unfortunately not. Part of building is the notion of permanence, the feeling of progress and an upward trajectory. If they stayed dead, then deconstructing reds might be more meaningful.

To all you who are upset about my words:

 

Do you enjoy tackling people and forcing PVP when they're in the middle of doing other stuff and plainly aren't interested in playing patty-cake with PVPers? This is, of course, assuming it happens in places like these imminent Contested zones and the Outlaw's Den on Tat?

 

You see them doing stuff that has nothing to do with PVP, whether it's getting the HK part, or killing a Commander. Do you go "Well, they're busy right now, I'll wait for them to finish before I jump them."

 

Or do you just jump in there while they're distracted, focus the healers down and then let the boss wipe them?

 

For those of you honest enough to admit to the second option, what is your reason for doing so, other than to enrage and frustrate the other side and keep them from doing that non-PVP activity?

 

Bear in mind, we all know how 99% of the PVPers think and act in the above situations, so think about that established pattern of behavior before you proclaim virtue.

 

I just find it petty and vindictive and spiteful to ruin another person's fun like that. They're not there to PVP you, so why would anyone do it other than to make them angry and frustrated?

 

Again, before you claim otherwise, do remember that we all just got done with the Gree event on Ilum and the week-long ragefest that was Gen Chat filled with frustration and anger at the PVPers and the taunts and mockery from the PVPers.

I think part of this problem is that you can enter a PvP area without wanting to PvP at all. They put carebear objectives inside PvP zones. Many PvPers go there thinking that anyone who is flagged is down for some good old fun, and the PvE players who go there grit their teeth and flag themselves not because they want to PvP, but because they want to accomplish their PvE goals faster and more efficiently. This results in people flagged for PvP who really would rather not be and PvPers who attack flagged people thinking that it's totally OK, they're flagged so they must be alright with it. This is not a player problem, it's a design problem. The designers think it promotes fun, when it actually promotes frustration and misunderstanding between players of different play style preferences. I have never understood why they would put PvP flagging areas on PvE servers when this is the universal result. The PvPers have their own entire servers for that, and I'm glad they have a good way to enjoy it. It's simply nonsensical to put those zones on PvE servers.

The original problem in that direction is that the crafting route is several orders of magnitude slower. It's so ineffective as to be not a choice. I certainly won't be wasting my time on it, and I have heard comments from many others along the same lines.

It is *potentially* much slower. Depending on whether or not those mobs get camped and how much fighting goes on over them (of which I hope will be A LOT) it may or may not be any faster than just crafting what you need. But, let's say for the sake of argument that it is much, much slower to craft than to PVP for them. It should be. Crafting takes less people to do and it's a lot less risky, so there should be a downside to it (i.e time).

Again, I don't see the problem. You are given two options here. No one is forcing anyone to PVP. And if you're flagged, in a PVP zone, then you're consenting to PVP.

Haha, good idea, but unfortunately not. Part of building is the notion of permanence, the feeling of progress and an upward trajectory. If they stayed dead, then deconstructing reds might be more meaningful.

Since they usually come right back flailing and tunneling you like an enraged gorilla I can see your point.

It is *potentially* much slower. Depending on whether or not those mobs get camped and how much fighting goes on over them (of which I hope will be A LOT) it may or may not be any faster than just crafting what you need. But, let's say for the sake of argument that it is much, much slower to craft than to PVP for them. It should be. Crafting takes less people to do and it's a lot less risky, so there should be a downside to it (i.e time).

 

Again, I don't see the problem. You are given two options here. No one is forcing anyone to PVP. And if you're flagged, in a PVP zone, then you're consenting to PVP.

You have no idea what it takes to get those materials or how many you need, do you? Perhaps you're not familiar with an "order of magnitude" and its meaning?

I think part of this problem is that you can enter a PvP area without wanting to PvP at all. They put carebear objectives inside PvP zones. Many PvPers go there thinking that anyone who is flagged is down for some good old fun, and the PvE players who go there grit their teeth and flag themselves not because they want to PvP, but because they want to accomplish their PvE goals faster and more efficiently. This results in people flagged for PvP who really would rather not be and PvPers who attack flagged people thinking that it's totally OK, they're flagged so they must be alright with it. This is not a player problem, it's a design problem. The designers think it promotes fun, when it actually promotes frustration and misunderstanding between players of different play style preferences. I have never understood why they would put PvP flagging areas on PvE servers when this is the universal result. The PvPers have their own entire servers for that, and I'm glad they have a good way to enjoy it. It's simply nonsensical to put those zones on PvE servers.

I'll agree with that. It's a terrible design and part of why I hate PVP. If you want me to PVP, make it fun. Don't railroad me into it by putting PVE objectives in there and try to entice me into doing something I don't like. That doesn't make me like PVP, it just makes me hate the related PVE objectives, and in turn makes me hate TOR, too.

To all you who are upset about my words:

 

Do you enjoy tackling people and forcing PVP when they're in the middle of doing other stuff and plainly aren't interested in playing patty-cake with PVPers? This is, of course, assuming it happens in places like these imminent Contested zones and the Outlaw's Den on Tat?

 

You see them doing stuff that has nothing to do with PVP, whether it's getting the HK part, or killing a Commander. Do you go "Well, they're busy right now, I'll wait for them to finish before I jump them."

 

Or do you just jump in there while they're distracted, focus the healers down and then let the boss wipe them?

 

For those of you honest enough to admit to the second option, what is your reason for doing so, other than to enrage and frustrate the other side and keep them from doing that non-PVP activity?

 

Bear in mind, we all know how 99% of the PVPers think and act in the above situations, so think about that established pattern of behavior before you proclaim virtue.

 

I just find it petty and vindictive and spiteful to ruin another person's fun like that. They're not there to PVP you, so why would anyone do it other than to make them angry and frustrated?

 

Again, before you claim otherwise, do remember that we all just got done with the Gree event on Ilum and the week-long ragefest that was Gen Chat filled with frustration and anger at the PVPers and the taunts and mockery from the PVPers.

To your first question, being in a PvP specific area, warzones, Outlaws, commander zones, is an indicator that you are willing and looking for PvP. If someone's doing dailies, both sides will usually pass each other by, even on a PvP server.

Sometimes you'll see groups of people or individual stealth classes trying to gank people doing dailies. On the one hand they usually have a numerical advantage. On the other hand, they usually have negligible amounts of pvp gear or gear in general, and tend not to be terribly good at the game. So simply wearing PvP gear or using Heroic Moment will allow you to wreck them. Even if they gank a few people doing dailies, another group will form up inevitably to drive them off.

Now as for people actually geared in PvP gear? They move in a minimum of a group of four, and more likely in an OPs group trying to intentionally provoke opposite faction players to form up a group to go after them.

The notion of having two ops groups duking it out to allow a third ops groups to try and beat a boss is exciting in itself. For the more general situations(not in PvP specific zones), people are on a PvP server for spontaneous open world PvP. Even if you're ganking smaller groups of people on a PvP server, there is the expectation that it'll cause a group of people to form up and fight back. People who are looking to fight people who have no chance of fighting back are more likely to be on a PvE server, trying to exploit the flagging system.

I'll agree with that. It's a terrible design and part of why I hate PVP. If you want me to PVP, make it fun. Don't railroad me into it by putting PVE objectives in there and try to entice me into doing something I don't like. That doesn't make me like PVP, it just makes me hate the related PVE objectives, and in turn makes me hate TOR, too.

Do you understand the problem for simply rewarding Open World PvP for every kill? Kill trading.

The PvE element is there to tie the rewards for this PvP determined activity to a specific accomplishment. The boss isn't going to lie over and die on its own.

I think part of this problem is that you can enter a PvP area without wanting to PvP at all. They put carebear objectives inside PvP zones. Many PvPers go there thinking that anyone who is flagged is down for some good old fun, and the PvE players who go there grit their teeth and flag themselves not because they want to PvP, but because they want to accomplish their PvE goals faster and more efficiently. This results in people flagged for PvP who really would rather not be and PvPers who attack flagged people thinking that it's totally OK, they're flagged so they must be alright with it. This is not a player problem, it's a design problem. The designers think it promotes fun, when it actually promotes frustration and misunderstanding between players of different play style preferences. I have never understood why they would put PvP flagging areas on PvE servers when this is the universal result. The PvPers have their own entire servers for that, and I'm glad they have a good way to enjoy it. It's simply nonsensical to put those zones on PvE servers.

The problem here is not with Bioware's design. The problem is player entitlement.

If you are in a PVP zone, why you're there doesn't matter. What you're there for doesn't matter. How much you hate PVP doesn't matter. Whether or not the quest itself requires you to kill someone doesn't matter. All that matters is that you're red. And Red = Dead.

The PVPers killing other players in a PVP zone are where they should be doing exactly what they're supposed be doing. YOU are the one who shouldn't be there. Bioware even gives options to skip the PVP content - the quests in the PVP area during the Gree Event are marginal, there is a second way to get mats for your ship - and yet a bunch of entitled players will still enter zones knowing that they're about to be flagged and attacked and then whine and cry.

And I'm sorry, I don't buy the fact that making an equal path would somehow stop the tears of the carebears. The two PVP Gree quests (which are marked *PVP* and you get a big flashing warning when you enter the zone) are completly optional and not necessary at all to max out your rep. And guess what? Every time single the event rolls around, people freak out. Entitled whiners like this will not be happy until all PVP is removed from their servers completely.

I'll agree with that. It's a terrible design and part of why I hate PVP. If you want me to PVP, make it fun. Don't railroad me into it by putting PVE objectives in there and try to entice me into doing something I don't like. That doesn't make me like PVP, it just makes me hate the related PVE objectives, and in turn makes me hate TOR, too.

If demonizing all who play PVP makes you feel better sure do your thing. If you're half as analytical and interested in truth as you behave like you are on this forum then you obviously know how bogus that is.

There are some bad designs where the two meet, from some views. I don't have a problem with it. But it's easy to see why PVE-only types wouldn't appreciate PVP being central in the new content. On the flip-side I'm sure PVP-only types are less than thrilled that boss fights are.

The problem here not with Bioware's design. The problem is player entitlement.

 

If you are in a PVP zone, why you're there doesn't matter. What you're there for doesn't matter. How much you hate PVP doesn't matter. Whether or not the quest itself requires you to kill someone doesn't matter. All that matters is that you're red. And Red = Dead.

 

The PVPers killing other players in a PVP zone are where they should be doing exactly what they're supposed be doing. YOU are the one who shouldn't be there. Bioware even gives options to skip the PVP content - the quests in the PVP area during the Gree Event are marginal, there is a second way to get mats for your ship - and yet a bunch of entitled players will still enter zones knowing that they're about to be flagged and attacked and then whine and cry.

 

And I'm sorry, I don't buy the fact that making an equal path would somehow stop the tears of the carebears. The two PVP Gree quests (which are marked *PVP* and you get a big flashing warning when you enter the zone) are completly optional and not necessary at all to max out your rep. And guess what? Every time single the event rolls around, people freak out. Entitled whiners like this will not be happy until all PVP is removed from their servers completely.

I agree that the people who went into the PvP area during the Gree event need mental help if they didn't want to PvP. I didn't want to so I didn't go, regardless of whether or not I could've gotten rewards for it. I accept that there are small things I'm not going to get if I don't PvP. When I get killed in the Outlaw's Den trying to do something PvE, I don't whine about it, I just go on. They're not breaking the rules.

That said, if those zones weren't PvP flagging areas I'd be happier for it. Honestly, I WOULD be happy if the only PvP on PvE servers was in Warzones. Tickled pink, happy as a clam. There are entire servers for PvP, people should use and enjoy them.

There are some bad designs where the two meet, from some views. I don't have a problem with it. But it's easy to see why PVE-only types wouldn't appreciate PVP being central in the new content. On the flip-side I'm sure PVP-only types are less than thrilled that boss fights are.

This is where the misconceptions come in. If the Commanders were not in PvP flag zones on PvE servers but PvP was allowed as normal on PvP servers, PvPers who are looking for a fight and not unequipped uninterested victims would lose nothing. I would never advocate removing that option from PvP servers.

Do you understand the problem for simply rewarding Open World PvP for every kill? Kill trading.

 

The PvE element is there to tie the rewards for this PvP determined activity to a specific accomplishment. The boss isn't going to lie over and die on its own.

And therein lies the problem. The Commanders are 'there' deliberately to get people to do World PVP. That's not 'fun.' That's railroading. That's saying that they realize that World PVP sucks so much that they'll put a much needed aspect of Guild Conquest in Contested Zones, even on PVE servers, to try and lure people into it.

That's not a sign of confidence in TOR PVP. That's a sign of 'If we don't put something in there that they need, they'll never do it." And, to which I say, Duh. Many of us rolled on PVE servers to avoid World PVP.

If you want to put something in there for the World PVPers, put stuff in there that's related directly and solely toward PVP. Make the Commanders rarely drop a unique-skin Walker or a Battle Bantha that's carrying missile racks and a gatling gun on its head. And throw a 500k credit purse, too, to be split up between the members of the raid group, but the Commander can only be accessed when both factions are there in equal sized groups.

I would cheer them on and wish them well from my non-PVP server and non-PVP zones.

The mistake here is classifying this as a PvE reward in a PvP zone. It is neither. This is an open world PvP reward for open world PvP play.

Open world PvP is a an entirely different form of play. Some people who like instanced PvP like open world PvP, but others don't. Some people who like PvE play, but dislike instanced PvP will still enjoy open world PvP. They are all valid play styles, and different people will like parts of it.

Asking for these rewards to be available without the open world PvP is akin to asking for Ranked PvP rewards to be available without doing ranked PvP. It's also the same thing as asking to be able to solo operations so you can see the story (and get the rewards) without having to play with other people because you prefer solo play.

Each type of play has some portion of the game that can't really be experienced if you don't play that style. This is just one of them.

Frankly, I'm glad Bioware offered two paths to achieving the same ends, neither of which requires you to play the other style. To get upgrades to your guild flagship you can do one of these, or a combination of both.

• Open World PvP objectives
  
• Craft
  

If they can bring the cost to craft frameworks into a more reasonable level, we should be all set.

And therein lies the problem. The Commanders are 'there' deliberately to get people to do World PVP. That's not 'fun.' That's railroading. That's saying that they realize that World PVP sucks so much that they'll put a much needed aspect of Guild Conquest in Contested Zones, even on PVE servers, to try and lure people into it.

 

That's not a sign of confidence in TOR PVP. That's a sign of 'If we don't put something in there that they need, they'll never do it." And, to which I say, Duh. Many of us rolled on PVE servers to avoid World PVP.

 

If you want to put something in there for the World PVPers, put stuff in there that's related directly and solely toward PVP. Make the Commanders rarely drop a unique-skin Walker or a Battle Bantha that's carrying missile racks and a gatling gun on its head. And throw a 500k credit purse, too, to be split up between the members of the raid group, but the Commander can only be accessed when both factions are there in equal sized groups.

 

I would cheer them on and wish them well from my non-PVP server and non-PVP zones.

This. Why don't more people understand this? Isn't it obvious from the way they use PvP zones in various quests? They know people won't OWPvP because it's fun, so they have to lure you there with something so you'll put up with it for a little while. That's certainly not fun. I'd love to see some OWPvP rewards like he proposed instead of this "lure the bait in" garbage they've done for ages.

If they can bring the cost to craft frameworks into a more reasonable level, we should be all set.

I'd be totally OK with that. Good post all around.

To your first question, being in a PvP specific area, warzones, Outlaws, commander zones, is an indicator that you are willing and looking for PvP. If someone's doing dailies, both sides will usually pass each other by, even on a PvP server.

 

Sometimes you'll see groups of people or individual stealth classes trying to gank people doing dailies. On the one hand they usually have a numerical advantage. On the other hand, they usually have negligible amounts of pvp gear or gear in general, and tend not to be terribly good at the game. So simply wearing PvP gear or using Heroic Moment will allow you to wreck them. Even if they gank a few people doing dailies, another group will form up inevitably to drive them off.

 

 

Now as for people actually geared in PvP gear? They move in a minimum of a group of four, and more likely in an OPs group trying to intentionally provoke opposite faction players to form up a group to go after them.

 

The notion of having two ops groups duking it out to allow a third ops groups to try and beat a boss is exciting in itself. For the more general situations(not in PvP specific zones), people are on a PvP server for spontaneous open world PvP. Even if you're ganking smaller groups of people on a PvP server, there is the expectation that it'll cause a group of people to form up and fight back. People who are looking to fight people who have no chance of fighting back are more likely to be on a PvE server, trying to exploit the flagging system.

This entire post seems reasonable, well thought out, and sounds like fun.... therefore I completely reject your reality and substitute my own.

In all seriousness, what you describe above is what I envisioned PvP to be about in terms of open world pvp. Perhaps there is a lot of merit to "People who are looking to fight people who have no chance of fighting back are more likely to be on a PvE server, trying to exploit the flagging system."

The issue doesn't exist on the PvP servers because, well ... everyone understands and purposefully joined a PvP server. The issue on the PvE servers, is generally people (some, not all) who join the PvE servers expect... well, just PvE.

I've said it before, PvP is an aquired skill, and it is built over time, and practice against another "thinking opponent". The people who have serious issue with the Open PvP areas, haven't honed that skill... gear is part of it, but experience is a huge factor.

And therein lies the problem. The Commanders are 'there' deliberately to get people to do World PVP. That's not 'fun.' That's railroading. That's saying that they realize that World PVP sucks so much that they'll put a much needed aspect of Guild Conquest in Contested Zones, even on PVE servers, to try and lure people into it.

 

That's not a sign of confidence in TOR PVP. That's a sign of 'If we don't put something in there that they need, they'll never do it." And, to which I say, Duh. Many of us rolled on PVE servers to avoid World PVP.

 

If you want to put something in there for the World PVPers, put stuff in there that's related directly and solely toward PVP. Make the Commanders rarely drop a unique-skin Walker or a Battle Bantha that's carrying missile racks and a gatling gun on its head. And throw a 500k credit purse, too, to be split up between the members of the raid group, but the Commander can only be accessed when both factions are there in equal sized groups.

 

I would cheer them on and wish them well from my non-PVP server and non-PVP zones.

I don't see why its a problem that the Commanders are there to incentivize large scale World PvP. Loot drops on bosses are there to incentivize PvE ops groups.

If a boss isn't progression, you'll typically find most people stop doing it. So your complaints lodged against using this incentive as PvP? Equally applicable to PvE. If these drops weren't used for upgrading guild flagships, people would never go do them on PvE servers, even if it were a non-PvP zone.

This is currently the only PvP-leaning method of acquiring upgrades to flagships. PvPers don't necessarily want to raid. Consequently they don't get raid mats. The crafting method is PvE oriented, and even this method requires people to do some PvE.

Both PvPers and PvErs can attempt to get framework pieces by placing in the top ten in conquests.

They put carebear objectives inside PvP zones.

No...they put valuable, time saving items, inside the PvP zone. Risk vs reward.

The mistake here is classifying this as a PvE reward in a PvP zone. It is neither. This is an open world PvP reward for open world PvP play.

 

Open world PvP is a an entirely different form of play. Some people who like instanced PvP like open world PvP, but others don't. Some people who like PvE play, but dislike instanced PvP will still enjoy open world PvP. They are all valid play styles, and different people will like parts of it.

 

Asking for these rewards to be available without the open world PvP is akin to asking for Ranked PvP rewards to be available without doing ranked PvP. It's also the same thing as asking to be able to solo operations so you can see the story (and get the rewards) without having to play with other people because you prefer solo play.

 

Each type of play has some portion of the game that can't really be experienced if you don't play that style. This is just one of them.

 

Frankly, I'm glad Bioware offered two paths to achieving the same ends, neither of which requires you to play the other style. To get upgrades to your guild flagship you can do one of these, or a combination of both.

 

• Open World PvP objectives
  
• Craft
  

 

If they can bring the cost to craft frameworks into a more reasonable level, we should be all set.

If they were to simply add PVE aspects to Encryptions and Frameworks, the problem wouldn't be a problem. If people are concerned with Encryptions being farmed too fast, then put a limit on how many encryptions can be gained per person per week, and/or limit a Guild to only one Framework gained per week.

The issue doesn't exist on the PvP servers because, well ... everyone understands and purposefully joined a PvP server. The issue on the PvE servers, is generally people (some, not all) who join the PvE servers expect... well, just PvE.

Precisely. Given the option, we signed up for PvE and we expect PvE.

I've said it before, PvP is an aquired skill, and it is built over time, and practice against another "thinking opponent". The people who have serious issue with the Open PvP areas, haven't honed that skill... gear is part of it, but experience is a huge factor.

Yes, and that skill is something many people on PvE servers don't care about, don't want to waste time on, and don't want to bother with at all. We rejected it as a possible aspect of our game experience and resent it when that choice isn't respected.

If they were to simply add PVE aspects to Encryptions and Frameworks, the problem wouldn't be a problem. If people are concerned with Encryptions being farmed too fast, then put a limit on how many encryptions can be gained per person per week, and/or limit a Guild to only one Framework gained per week.

The crafting method is the PvE route. You do operations to get mats.

Now its radically overpriced, but I agree with Brewski that if the prices are brought down to a reasonable level, it works just fine as an incentive to do operations and flashpoints.

Yes, and that skill is something many people on PvE servers don't care about, don't want to waste time on, and don't want to bother with at all. We rejected it as a possible aspect of our game experience and resent it when that choice isn't respected.

That's fine, the Commanders weren't meant for you. Warzones weren't meant for you. The Outlaws Den wasn't meant for you.

Different content is created to appeal to different people.

That's fine, the Commanders weren't meant for you. Warzones weren't meant for you. The Outlaws Den wasn't meant for you.

 

Different content is created to appeal to different people.

*whiff* Right over the head....

You didn't actually get the point of what I wrote, did you?

*whiff* Right over the head....

You're asking for PvP content to become PvE content. You clearly don't understand that the content was not designed with you in mind.