Bioware has already stated it was not going to alter current companions to include SGRA options a number of times if I am not mistaken, so for the time being absence of direct evidence that this is going to happen reduces this to little more than wishful thinking.

While Mr. Rieds statement:

Same gender romances with companion characters in Star Wars: The Old Republic will be a post-launch feature. Because The Old Republic is an MMO, the game will live on through content expansions which allow us to include content and features that could not be included at launch, including the addition of more companion characters who will have additional romance options.

Mr Hickman wrote in the last state of the game:

I realize that we promised SGR to you guys and that many of you believed that this would be with a companion character. Unfortunately, this will take a lot more work than we realized at the time and it (like some other pieces of content we talked about earlier in the year) has been delayed as we focused on the changes required to take the game Free-to-Play. As we have said in the past, allowing same gender romance is something we are very supportive of.

Additionally Mr. Hood wrote on twitter:

Angela ‏@margitan

@hallhood Any chance of some day revisiting species recognition in quests for things like this: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5696401#post5696401 … I admit it is funny.

@margitan That's one of my many points of pain in our current game. When those lines were written playing Chiss wasn't an option. Sigh.

@hallhood Oh, I bet. Were Chiss added as playable pretty late, or just didn't think they'd ever be on the Repub side?

@margitan Both! If we had known in advance, I'm sure Jennifer would have written an alternate joke involving Ugnaughts.

@hallhood Haha, interesting. Thanks for the insight. Is revising it even a possibility?

 

@margitan It is possible--and on the to-do list.

and

Lent ‏@biancapatzelt

@hallhood One more thing, any chance of Corso Riggs becoming available as an SGR option?... would really, really endorse that.

@biancapatzelt So noted. ;-)

@hallhood In case that ever happens, I'd like to suggest lifetime subscriptions to go along. )

Also can you please explain why the 100.000+ views of the APAC thread are more than the 300.000+ views of the SGRA thread. Because you might have found a new kind of number theory here because according to my maths the SGRA thread has more than three times as many views.

It is not petitio principii simply because you disagree with the premise.

No, but a valid argument cannot depend on the form of the words. In effect, you’ve left out a premise: viz ‘core’ means PvP etc etc.

When instead ‘core’ means ‘what makes the game playable enjoyably for markcymru’, your argument comes out like this: Considering how well the game works, does anyone really expect Bioware to spend massive amounts etc etc [to which the answer would be “Yeah, of course”].

Your argument comes out as: Considering how badly the game handles the things I treasure, does anyone really expect BioWare to spend massive amounts etc etc.

By framing the features that you treasure as ‘core’, or shall we say ‘fundamental’, you make your conclusion apparently inescapable. If you had described them simply as ‘the features I treasure’, your argument wouldn’t really stand up – it would simply be you saying ‘I want BioWare to spend their money on what I want’.

I offer as evidence the innumerable threads dominating the more travelled forums (General and PVP) demonstrating a clear concern on the part of the player-base concerning PVP-Balance and Bug Fix/Optimization cycles.

 

In the aftermath of 1.2 the PVP forums have essentially exploded, with concerns over balance reaching a new zenith with the confluence of Rage-Spec Marauders and Backlash-Barrier Sorcerers more recently.

You will recognize at once that no inference can be drawn about relative numbers of pro-PvPers vs. Pro-SGRers in the player-base from relative numbers/activity in the forum [i'm trying to keep my syntax manageable by using an easy-to-remember tag for the two sides]. I mention this because for a true debate to take place, there has to be some way of agreeing on the premises.

We all know…

All men are mortal

Socrates is a man

Therefore Socrates is mortal.

Just as valid as an argument, though, is…

All men have immortal souls

Socrates is a man

Therefore Socrates has an immortal soul.

Willingness to accept either one of these arguments depends on one's willingness to accept the first premises.

You [iceHawk] can make arguments based on ‘small minority’ ‘minuscule proportion’ etc and they might have all kinds of logical validity, but unless you can provide some justification for your premises your arguments have as much or as little weight as the ‘immortal souls’ argument above would have to an atheist.

I highly doubt that mDPS or DPS Sorc/Mercs would support your contention that their particular Endgame core component is in anything but a broken state.

Probably true, but it seems to me that there’s always someone complaining about their class being nerfed, and if other posters in other threads are to be believed, trying to achieve class balance is a perpetual problem with all MMOs. So from my perspective, why should BioWare keep spending resources to fix an ‘unfixable’ problem for a minority of the playerbase [even if PvPers were most of the playerbase, which I dispute, the people complaining about their own class are a minority within that playerbase] when they could be fixing a real problem [need for new story content that includes SGRAs]

I would frankly be unsurprised if Bioware placed new companions, SGRA-capable or otherwise, on the Cartel Market at this point.

No argument here – BioWare may well do that. It would be a big mistake as far as I’m concerned, but that’s just my opinion.

That different segement you refer to is the overwhelming majority of the player-base. That is evident both in the superintending concern Bioware places on their satiation at every patch and new piece of content as well as the general dismissal threads such as this one have receievd.

But you could just as easily argue from that evidence the following:

Both player segments are the same size [or even that the ‘SGR’ segment is bigger], but the fix that one segment requires is easier to pull off quickly than the fix that the other segment requires. BioWare obviously chose to make one segment happier quickly rather than leave both segments unhappy for a long time. And being strapped for cash, that decision kept being made for months until finally enough pressure was brought on them to commit to providing SGRs, beginning with a gesture on Makeb.

Also, how are people who are dedicated to the story-mode of the game (presumably leveling alts) going to engage in that endeavor with SGRA unless Bioware develops class-specific SGRA-capable male and female companions?

You’re making the assumption that that’s the only way that would keep us Pro-SGRers happy. But it could be done differently. Here are some suggestions that have been made:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=583335

Which returns me to my original question.

If Bioware lacked the funding to extend class-specific missions in Makeb, what makes any of us think they are going to dedicate the time and resources to create class-specific SGRA companions that will fit the current 1-50?

Development on Makeb began a long time ago and was continuing while BioWare was going through what we all believe was a financial crisis. So they probably did what they could with the resources that they had – hence the Makeb that we’re going to get. That was then -- F2P has happened along the way, and it’s quite possible that the cash is rolling in [God knows I hope so ! ]. In that case a good move on BioWare’s part would be to re-invest that cash into providing as much new stuff as possible to keep as many segments as possible happy. And I expect one of them will be my segment… which I believe is a sizeable chunk of the base.

My argument has never once been that SGRA should not be included in the game.

That is the caricatured assumption individuals assume simply because I find the manner of the SGRA proponents' interactions with their opponents more than a little distasteful.

This is an interesting comment. Have you seen the way the anti-SGR crowd interacts [probably not... because the distasteful ones are quickly deleted and the posters suspended/banned]. How would you have characterized the ‘interaction’ of a poster, in a thread that was deleted today, who suggested that he would appreciate the option of dragging an ‘SGR’ character behind his pick-up truck?

This game did not lose a million subscriptions because SGRAs were not included and I doubt we will gain any net subscriptions if they ever are actually included.

We don’t know, do we? Maybe they lost a million subscriptions because the players found the whole concept of endgame boring – No story! No romances!

Who knows? To me, that scenario is just as plausible as the scenario that you imply: viz players finish the levelling, with its stories, and then want to do pointless PvP and PvE [pointless because it doesn’t lead anywhere other than cranking up your brownie point score] month in month out.

I would prefer Bioware spend its time and my money on firming up its principle three components of gameplay and move on to special interest group concerns such as SGRA, SSSP, Guild concerns, mini-games after a major PVP-Balance Patch, and Optimization Patch, and maybe a new look at crafting.

 

After that they should move on to including these extraneous pieces into the game, ideally in mini-content patches on a regular basis.

 

SGRA is not a priority to a vast majority of the player-base, nor should it be, I would argue, a priority to Bioware at this moment.

I’m not sure what the names of these informal fallacies of argumentation are, possibly ad populum, maybe ad hominem, possibly petitio [depending on your exact definition]. We keep seeing this type of thing – ‘pandering’, ‘agenda’, 'special interest group’, ‘vocal minority’ – where the opprobrium attached to these terms is intended to strengthen the argument. Quite often, as I’ve pointed out elsewhere, the argument deflates at once if you use more neutral terms [like ‘a certain proportion’ or 'a specific segment']

I'm not really sure how to respond to the OP. He (yes, I'm fairly certain it's a male) made no suggestion, he asked no question and he made no assertions.

So here goes: It's happening. Get used to it.

please dont focus on SGR,i know its gonna come,but put it on the back burner and focus on warzones,planets,flashpoints,and events!

It's been on the back burner for long enough.

While SGRA and a host of other extraneous items would be great to see in the game Bioware needs to focus its largest efforts on maintaining and expanding its core components before addressing these specialized interests.

To make it short, no. Diversity is the way to go and not down the path the presumed "majority" suggests. WoW did that with Cataclysm and tanked horribly. Like, horribly. I think they lost 2 million subs afterwards.

See me leave, if what you suggest BW should do actually happens. There is no majority, just as there are no core components in game playing. All of us are minorities in the way we play a game differently and the sum of content makes a great game, not "core components" that are tweaked to the extreme.

You know nothing about what makes games successful, apparently.

I would prefer Bioware spend its time and my money on firming up its principle three components of gameplay and move on to special interest group concerns such as SGRA, SSSP, Guild concerns, mini-games after a major PVP-Balance Patch, and Optimization Patch, and maybe a new look at crafting.

Bioware has been doing exactly that for about 7 years. It's time to let other people get some stuff too.

Bioware has been doing exactly that for about 7 years. It's time to let other people get some stuff too.

7 years?

7 years?

The game's been in development since what, 2005?

I'm not advocating for something a small majority wants added to a game, so I'm not pushing a agenda.

First of all I am not flaming and to a degree perhaps you have a point However,I asked this of the OP now I am going to ask this of you. Could you kindly provide proof that the player base that wants SGR's are a minority? Also I do not think it is completely fair to label those who are in favor of SGR's to be having a agenda. The reason in my opinion for the hostility is that this feature was always going to be put in the game but was always pushed back because of other more important game priories and this we understand. But now that it is finally getting implemented some people are calling for it's removal without solid reasons and thus we feel sometimes we are being pushed into a corner. Again I am not saying you do not have a point but I think it is a bit more complicated than simply saying it is a agenda.

I'm not advocating for something a small majority wants added to a game, so I'm not pushing a agenda.

Throughout this debate we keep seeing the same weasel words used by the anti-SGR crowd: for example. “agenda”, “vocal minority”, “pandering”, “vast majority”, “core features”. All of which are designed to win the debate by putting down the pro-SGR position by using words that beg the question or appeal to the prejudices of the reader.

The pro-SGR posters never discuss anything else but their reasons for wanting SGRs in SWTOR (at least I’ve never seen it on this forum). So to say “agenda” about the wish to see SGRs in SWTOR is not only slimy arguing but it’s also false AND is against the rules of this forum: it’s bringing into the debate the terminology and reasoning of the extreme real-life anti-LGBT groups and should therefore be a bannable offense.

Throughout this debate we keep seeing the same weasel words used by the anti-SGR crowd: for example. “agenda”, “vocal minority”, “pandering”, “vast majority”, “core features”. All of which are designed to win the debate by putting down the pro-SGR position by using words that beg the question or appeal to the prejudices of the reader.

The pro-SGR posters never discuss anything else but their reasons for wanting SGRs in SWTOR (at least I’ve never seen it on this forum). So to say “agenda” about the wish to see SGRs in SWTOR is not only slimy arguing but it’s also false AND is against the rules of this forum: it’s bringing into the debate the terminology and reasoning of the extreme real-life anti-LGBT groups and should therefore be a bannable offense.

I fully agree.

First of all I am not flaming and to a degree perhaps you have a point However,I asked this of the OP now I am going to ask this of you. Could you kindly provide proof that the player base that wants SGR's are a minority? Also I do not think it is completely fair to label those who are in favor of SGR's to be having a agenda. The reason in my opinion for the hostility is that this feature was always going to be put in the game but was always pushed back because of other more important game priories and this we understand. But now that it is finally getting implemented some people are calling for it's removal without solid reasons and thus we feel sometimes we are being pushed into a corner. Again I am not saying you do not have a point but I think it is a bit more complicated than simply saying it is a agenda.

I am not sure what thread you are reading. This thread does not call for the removal of anything. It merely states my opinion that putting SGRs in ahead of other much needed fixes and additions that a much smaller portion of the player base is being catered to. It is of my opinion that there are other things that they could have done that would positively affect this game for most everybody.

Nowhere have I said that SGRs do not belong or that they should be removed.

The romance options in this game are lacking in my opinion as it is. Once you complete the story arc, there is no change in the way you interact with your companions at all. My trooper hasn't said anything of consequence to Elara since last January.

To waste design time on such a flawed concept is a bad use of resources. There are many more things on the "wall of crazy" that demand design time to make this game progress.

Because previous Bioware games have had SGR, I will say that it should have been included at the beginning since there was romance options for heterosexual characters.

But, at this point in time there's so many issues in this game that I felt that the resources used could have been spent more wisely. That does not mean that I think SGR should be taken away, just that I think people could have waited until we got a real expansion instead of the 10 dollar one planet no personal class story patch.

A few days ago I said that this thread was simply mean spirited. I stand by that statement. All moral and political arguments aside, the thrust of the argument is "Why should those people get what they wanted, when I haven't got everything I wanted yet?"

What I wonder about the OP (and the people like him) is, does he have no sense of enjoyment in seeing other people being made happy?

This is not a romantic themed game it's a star wars themed game. And do I hate romantic scenes in a action flic? Yes.......

Guessing you hate a lot of action films then as vast amounts of them have romance scenes of varying degrees of cringeworthyness.

/OT I don't believe the addition of SGR flirts for NPCs on Makeb consumes meaningful amounts of resources as they will almost certainly just make those NPCs PCsexual (Hawkesexual if you prefer DA2) and if they were going to add the flirts for one gender it costs tiny amounts to have both genders VAs' read them.

Besides if you want to look at things draining resources look at the Cartel Market and it's "new" armour every week.

Sorry you feel it's mean spirited, but adding SGR ruins my Star wars experience and takes out any immersion that might of been there.

 

And because it's from the 80's does not mean you can now add your agenda into the game because you think it was not in the story due to a time frame. Many novels and movies had SGR stuff before the eighties and makes your point null.

Why does adding a button labelled [flirt} ruin your experience?

Really? Name 10 heck make it five mainstream 80s movies with SGRs in where the people participating where not either:

a) dead or mortally ill by the end of the film or

b) villains

or c) both

You can suspect all you like. You would not be able to back any of your suspicions up with evidence.

 

See how that works?

 

You are entitled to suspect. I am entitled to go on believing that SGRs cater to a small minority of the player base. What makes you think that you can require that I provide evidence to voice my opinion while you provide none to refute my opinion?

No actually I don't see how that works. But the fact of the matter is the burden of proof is on you not me because you are the one who originally made the statement. Also until you do back it up it will not be taken into account as a serious claim despite the fact the it is your opinion. Also, just because it is a opinion does not mean your responsibility to back up your what your saying is not there. Also personal opinion does not shield one from criticism and on a public forum like this, you risk not being taken seriously or being viewed as unintelligent especially around highly debated topics such as one.

Also just to clarify I am perfectly entitled to require to you provide evidence because if you seen my other responses in this thread you would have noticed that I have put my support behind the implementation of SGR right from the get go meaning I never gave a further opinion on the matter. You on the other hand have spent the majority of the time claiming people are not aloud to call you out on your opinion because it's just how you feel. I'm sorry but a real adult debate does not work like that. You will not get away with making such a bold statement involving the player base without having to back it up as this affects many people and until you actually prove your belief people like myself will continue to call you out on it.

Bioware scriptwriter of Dragon Age and Mass Effect:

http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/40361886357/on-romances-in-games

Summary:

A friend of mine and I had a discussion regarding romances in Dragon Age. He said he had a problem with the fact that not all of the companions were romanceable, stating that there should be some way to, not necessarily on the same playthrough, convince every member of your party to have some manner of relations. I stated that it wasn’t feasible because of the effort required, and the sacrifices to other gameplay aspects it would cause.

[...]1) Romances are a side show, not the main game. Yes, some people like them a lot, and I have absolutely no beef with them doing so. In fact, it’s very gratifying. While I suppose a game could be made where the romantic plot takes a level of importance equal to that of the critical path, that has never been the case with the games BioWare makes. These plots are tertiary, optional content… something to add to your enjoyment, and add to your level of emotional investment in the characters… and that seems to get forgotten when people discuss it at length.[...]

2) I dislike the idea of every character being sexually available to the player. Not that it cheapens them, necessarily, but it would lend itself towards their objectification.[...]

I would, however, resist making the romance elements of our games more prominent without also changing the nature of that content. Adding an element of failure, for instance, or by having not all characters be available to all player characters (they’re attracted only to certain types, for instance)

Bioware has spoken. Discuss.

I fully agree.

Word.

Bioware scriptwriter of Dragon Age and Mass Effect:

http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/40361886357/on-romances-in-games

Summary:

Bioware has spoken. Discuss.

If you want discussion, put up the whole thing, not edited pieces out of context.

It's David Gaider on his private tumblr, though, not Bioware.

Ok havn't writen about this subject before but after reading that MakeB is going to be a planet for SGR I finally feel I have no choice This is an MMO this game isn't a shouting board for being proud to be SGR. I have Gay friends and even they don't feel a Computer game should be used in this way.

It feels like a small minority just love to shove it down our throats about there sexuality and keep on about sexual equality THIS isnt LIFE its an MMO were we are meant to come and relax after a hard days work to enjoy playing a game that you can as a father enjoy with your children.

If this game is going to shove SGR down our throats then I feel your taking Star wars in completely the wrong direction and i'm sure Disney wouldn't be happy with this.

You have SGR in your Bio-ware Mass effect games and I have played them all if you want to do SGR then bloody well make a MASS EFFECT MMO but don't pander to a small minority who think by posting every day on your forums they will get there way.

If I really thought that was the way to go id post every day about the bloody BUGS in this game and ask you to sort your teams out to actually make this game worth paying for.

I don't push my Sexual preferences down players throats so I don't see why players who wish for SGR should push it down mine.

Most players who I have had topical consultation with on this subject normally are young Boys who are like yeh we want SGR so we can get girls character to kiss girl companions.

looking forward to Star Wars 7 with a few SGR going on in the film see how long that lasts in a cinema with a PG rating.