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Are most new players just plain stupid?


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No, it's not a rhetorical question. I gave up on pve a long time ago since pug team after pug team barely have any idea of even the most basic concept of their class or role.

 

Just today:

 

1. Maelstrom prison, final boss fight. Me and 3 melee's, I explain that they need to los right away and not stand in the middle. Wipe 3 times in a row because they just stand in the middle and get sniped.

 

2. Athiss HM, I'm running heals. 1/3 of the way of a dps sage is throwing out heals and saying that they are both dps and heals because "their gear allows them to." Tank runs into every other mob half dead and dies 5-6 times.

 

I feel I like I need to find a new MMO that is more raw so it weeds out the basic button mashing players.

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I need to find a new MMO that is more raw so it weeds out the basic button mashing players.

That's the main explanation. The class quest and KotFE story are so easy that you can get to max level without knowing how your class or the basic mechanics work. Then we have the endgame, where some flashpoints are laughably easy whereas others are as hard as they have always been.

 

The problem is that the divide between solo play and group play is too big, the learning curve is too steep for the majority of players. With the Eternal Championship, BioWare wants to introduce more players into endgame but I have doubts that this will be successful.

 

My suggestion would be to keep running group content in PuGs and be willing to explain. For example, in the Maelstrom run you had, it is possible that the players didn't even know what LoS is. So instead of saying "LoS the boss", maybe "hide behind the pillars" would have helped.

But I've also seen my share of players unwilling to learn. I just try to ignore those players and focus on the ones who want to improve.

Edited by Jerba
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I believe the recent influx of new gamers is the cause, mainly due to the hype of the new Star Wars movie.

 

Once that starts dwindling though, the typical casual and clueless gamers will slowly start to fade away, and the genuinenly interested people will remain, and will get better in functioning with a group.

 

Granted, you will always have certain types out there who just can't figure things out the way they're supposed to, or are just plain ignorant and bent on playing the game their own way with no regard for their fellow members in the group (but you'll have that in every game with an online aspect).

 

Every once in a while a new wave of players arrive with this game (due to star wars movie/cartoon hype, release of a new expansion and whatnot), but I noticed that in due time, the majority of them will get bored and leave.

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Yes. I remeber my first year in this game - I was *********** horrible. I would have kicked myself from most groups for absolute stupidity and inability to communicate.

 

Skill comes with time and experience.

 

I was awful too.

I broke CCs, couldn't pass most dps checks, queued as a healer or tank without noticing.

 

Players were rightfully furious at me.

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Humans go the way of least resistance and will only learn when it's necessary. If you design your game so that it's necessary to use all your tools to defeat the endboss of your story chapter, deal proper damage, use defensive cooldowns, interrupt the big hitters of the boss and the like then players will learn because they have to. If you otoh continously dumb the game down over the years to the point when you can reach endgame without doing anything but watching your companion defeat the mobs for you then you'll grow a playerbase of braindead twits incapable of handling their class at even the most basic level. It's the logical conclusion of BioWare's quest for casual "mass appeal" and the "bigger audience".
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Are most new players just plain stupid?

 

I think most new players are ignorant. They don't know their roles. They don't have the experience of group play. And in the case of lowbies bolstered to any of the high end TFP's (meaning Battle of Ilum, False Emperor and beyond), they usually don't have the skill set to be effective.

 

There is a lot of stupid, though, but that's not necessarily restricted to new players. I've seen a lot of stupid over the years, and I'll admit, I've done some stupid things, myself (force push a mob off a cliff/ledge and immediately force leap to them). :eek:

 

The stupid ones are the ones that won't speak up and say they have no idea what to do, or won't listen to advice. Again, there are a lot of new, and vets, that fit into this category (standing in a burn patch taking 2k damage per second - yeah that's a smart move, moron!) :rolleyes:

 

Queuing for the wrong role can happen to anybody once. I've done it without thinking before. In those cases, I'll tell the group that I forgot to uncheck the box and let them know which role I am.

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Stupid, well maybe some of them, ignorant probably.

 

I can't help but think of a quote from Darth Baras (no not the blind, deaf comatose patient one :) ) but this one:-

 

 

"The pacing of the trials is deliberate. Only immersion over time produces results" - Darth Baras to Sith Warrior during his trials on Korriban.

 

Maybe the pacing of the pre 12x xp was deliberate (even if grindy) for players to learn how to play, since 12x xp event along with 4.0 levelling, abilities come so fast now plus the game difficulty means players never seem to learn their roles etc.

 

Of course there are other reasons!

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I know everyone here would have kicked me out of most groups when I first started playing. Hell, I would have kicked myself out of a group(and did get kicked at least once).

When you're brand new, you're going to be a little lost and confused. And if I'm in a PUG where someone is clearly new and confused, I will always help.

But if you're a DPS pulling before me, the tank, or any other situation, you're an idiot.

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I'll bite back the acid I want to post by reflex, and instead settle for a more serious answer;

 

For the most part, no. New and returning players come in all shapes and sizes and, for the most part, are not inherently stupid.

 

Does the game do a piss-poor job of explaining FPs and above, class roles, how to utilise certain mechanics in a group scenario and how much characters can and cannot get away with vs FP enemies? Yes, yes it does.

 

Is this not helped by a generally toxic approach to anything other than perfection by the majority of long term players in this community, along with a general and total failure in communication in game? No, hot helped at all.

 

And, finally, the Tactical changes to FPs with the boosting of under-level characters and removal of role requirements (I never thought I'd say THAT was a bad thing...) has completely turned everything on it's head and then some.

 

So....does that answer the question?

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Humans go the way of least resistance and will only learn when it's necessary.

 

This is the reason why in PvP you find FOTM groups with the biggest DPS farming innocent Newbies. Because people take the way of least resistance - Newbies who haven't learned much yet - as their target - and will only learn if these Newbies provide more resistance than expected.

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This is the reason why in PvP you find FOTM groups with the biggest DPS farming innocent Newbies. Because people take the way of least resistance - Newbies who haven't learned much yet - as their target - and will only learn if these Newbies provide more resistance than expected.

 

While I don't support Pug farming, trail by fire is how we all learned.

Let them suffer for a bit and try to overcome.

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As a new player, but one with lots of MMO experience, I understand your frustration. As experienced SWTOR players, maybe you can help me with mine.

 

I'm finding it bloody difficult to figure out how the game balances class interactions given the trivial content I'm hitting. And I'm struggling to figure out how my small family group can go through and do things that are more difficult.

 

Example: this afternoon, the wife and one kid (college age) and I go to do a flashpoint -- the next one in line, Taral V. We want to experience the content as much as we can, so we take the quest from what appears to be the "correct" questgiver (on Balmorra/republic side) and then figure out how to find the cruiser from fleet -- so far so good. But in talking with General not-Yoda each of us end up with a [sOLO] flashpoint in addition to our "complete the flashpoint" quest. And we then struggle to actually start the flashpoint -- it looks like the choices are "solo", "tactical" and "hard mode".

 

So we start it in "tactical" mode (I'm guessing that's "normal") but we have these three droids that trivially destroy anything in our path. So much for planning on tank, healer, ranged DPS and our one (melee) DPS companion. I gave up on tanking, I never could get aggro, so it seemed pointless. I can't imagine how I'd even figure out what "aggro" is if this was my first MMO.

 

Is there a way to play it "correctly" -- meaning tank, healer, 2 DPS? Is that now only for Hard Mode? Can we do Hard Mode while leveling?

 

It's just as frustrating for want-to-be-skilled-players, I promise.

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You got the gsi god-mode droids in tactical mode? That's not supposed to happen. They're only meant to be there in solo mode.

 

You are correct that Tactical Mode is meant to be normal mode. In theory, tacticals are "role neutral". In practice, having a dedicated tank, dedicated healer, and two dps people is nearly always the best combination as that was how flashpoints were originally designed.

 

I hate solo mode on my tanks and healers because we can't set the god-mode droid to full damage mode and let me feel useful in the way my character is built.

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As a new player, but one with lots of MMO experience, I understand your frustration. As experienced SWTOR players, maybe you can help me with mine.

 

I'm finding it bloody difficult to figure out how the game balances class interactions given the trivial content I'm hitting. And I'm struggling to figure out how my small family group can go through and do things that are more difficult.

 

Example: this afternoon, the wife and one kid (college age) and I go to do a flashpoint -- the next one in line, Taral V. We want to experience the content as much as we can, so we take the quest from what appears to be the "correct" questgiver (on Balmorra/republic side) and then figure out how to find the cruiser from fleet -- so far so good. But in talking with General not-Yoda each of us end up with a [sOLO] flashpoint in addition to our "complete the flashpoint" quest. And we then struggle to actually start the flashpoint -- it looks like the choices are "solo", "tactical" and "hard mode".

 

So we start it in "tactical" mode (I'm guessing that's "normal") but we have these three droids that trivially destroy anything in our path. So much for planning on tank, healer, ranged DPS and our one (melee) DPS companion. I gave up on tanking, I never could get aggro, so it seemed pointless. I can't imagine how I'd even figure out what "aggro" is if this was my first MMO.

 

Is there a way to play it "correctly" -- meaning tank, healer, 2 DPS? Is that now only for Hard Mode? Can we do Hard Mode while leveling?

 

It's just as frustrating for want-to-be-skilled-players, I promise.

 

You can do HM when you hit level 50. In order to queue for that through the GF you need a tank, healer, and 2 dps.

 

Those droids (let alone having three of them at the same time) take all of the joy out of playing as either a tank, healer, or even dps. It does everything for you. I hate doing solo flashpoints with that droid because I may as well put my character on autorun, steer them around corners, and let the droid clean it all up while my weapons remain stowed. That droid is probably the singular thing you could point at for the demise in quality of new players. At least before a new player would have to change SOMETHING in their playing to get through content or risk hitting a wall over and over. That droid takes away any incentive to get better or learn how to play any of the classes.

Edited by aerockyul
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So we start it in "tactical" mode (I'm guessing that's "normal") but we have these three droids that trivially destroy anything in our path. So much for planning on tank, healer, ranged DPS and our one (melee) DPS companion. I gave up on tanking, I never could get aggro, so it seemed pointless. I can't imagine how I'd even figure out what "aggro" is if this was my first MMO.

 

Is there a way to play it "correctly" -- meaning tank, healer, 2 DPS? Is that now only for Hard Mode? Can we do Hard Mode while leveling?

If you had the droids, you entered it on solo mode, not on tactical. Even though it is called solo mode, you can enter it as a group but it's already easy enough alone. So you should definitely do tactical mode. Hard mode requires level 50-65 but you should only do it if you are 65 and already know the bosses and have good gear, so tactical is better.

For tactical, the class combination doesn't matter but having a healer is a good idea, and having a full trinity group (tank+healer+2 dps) is perfect.

 

Since you say you have MMO experience, I'll just explain the flashpoint phasing in detail, hope you'll understand it:

  • You can only enter a flashpoint if you have the quest for it. You can get this quest by talking to the questgiver in front of the entrance, and you enter the mode that you have the quest for. E.g. there is a quest "[sOLO] Taral V", "[TACTICAL] Taral V" and "[HARD] Taral V". You can only have one of those three quests in your log, so if you have the solo quest but want to run tactical, you need to abandon the [sOLO] quest and then pick up the tactical quest from the questgiver. The quest will say something like "Complete the flashpoint Taral V".
  • Once you're inside the flashpoint, you'll automatically receive another quest, this is the phase quest and cannot be abandoned, it is usually called "[FLASHPOINT] Taral V". This quest will tell you what you have to do, like which consoles to click or which bosses to kill. If you leave the area, you will automatically lose this quest but the game remembers your phase for an hour or so. So if you go back inside the flashpoint, you will continue where you left off. But if you wait too long or log out, the phase will be reset and you have to start from the beginning of the flashpoint. You can manually reset your phase by right-clicking on your portrait and clicking on "Reset all active flashpoint phases" - this is helpful if the flashpoint is buggy. Abandoning the solo/tactical/hard quest does not reset the phase.
  • There is also a one-time story quest; in this case it is for completing first Taral V and then Maelstrom Prison. You first have to talk to an NPC, then the quest will say "Complete Taral V" and automatically give you either the solo or tactical quest. But you can complete it one any mode, so if you have the solo quest but want to run it as tactical, just abandon the solo one and then pick up the tactical one from the Taral V questgiver. Do not abandon the story quest or you will have to restart the story quest from the beginning.

Anyway, it gets a little more complicated when you take Group Finder into account but I hope you understood this. The whole phasing in SWTOR is not documented anywhere so you just have to learn it by trial & error (like I did) or find something to explain it to you.

The gist is: If you want to run it with your family, make sure you have the tactical mode and then it should work. If you are three people, you can either take along one companion, or pick up a player from fleet or Group Finder to complete the group, but you should be able to do the flashpoint with 3 players as well if you have MMO experience.

Edited by Jerba
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If you had the droids, you entered it on solo mode, not on tactical. Even though it is called solo mode, you can enter it as a group but it's already easy enough alone. So you should definitely do tactical mode. Hard mode requires level 50-65 but you should only do it if you are 65 and already know the bosses and have good gear, so tactical is better.

For tactical, the class combination doesn't matter but having a healer is a good idea, and having a full trinity group (tank+healer+2 dps) is perfect.

 

I agree with the post except for doing HM with 65's only. HM are bolstered, so gear is less of an issue (you don't want to be naked, though :p ). The mechanics are what make HM more difficult, but they don't have to be if you run it with someone experienced, read a guide or two, use your abilities (CC, stun, etc. etc.), avoid red circles, and on and on as we've posted many times. I've been taking guildies through HMFP's lately, and though there are a couple deaths here and there, they've never been something we couldn't overcome through even basic communication (we aren't even using VOIP, another thing that is not necessary for HM like some people say). I am well aware that running it with guildies and friends is different than the GF. That is just luck of the draw as far as getting at least 1 or maybe 2 other people that know what they're doing and won't cause endless wipes and rage-quitting.

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The replies are very helpful. My wife's comment was "thank you, thank you, thank you." We all currently have the [sOLO] Maelstrom Prison quest -- we'll drop it and go at it in tactical mode.

 

And yes, the "god-mode" droid really does trivialize it. Much obliged, again.

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No, it's not a rhetorical question. I gave up on pve a long time ago since pug team after pug team barely have any idea of even the most basic concept of their class or role.

 

...

 

I feel I like I need to find a new MMO that is more raw so it weeds out the basic button mashing players.

 

I honestly don't think it's as much a matter of the players' potential ("stupidity") as much as it is gameplay design.

 

Players are encouraged from character creation onward to have zero accountability towards their own survival. Essentially all solo content is more of a movie than a game. Then, once they want to stick their feet into the endgame they are literally clueless as to what to do. They'll either get carried through some of the easier content or be utterly lost on the average/difficult content.

 

I used to think - back ~ 2.0 or so - that the chasm between SM and HM was too wide.... I always felt that SM should have less mechanics but they should have consequences. Instead, in many cases, the mechanics still existed but you could ignore them. As a result, many "casuals" struggled when experiencing HM for the first time because mechanics weren't really respected.

 

But now it's miles worse. The best content in the game - IMHO - is the higher difficulty Operations content. It's a blast. Unfortunately, there is no clear progression path that adequately prepares anyone for it - or more accurately, the game itself does not provide one. It's a shame.

 

This game badly needed the "LFR" type of setup - it's really what they mean by "Story Mode" after all. As much as I can say things like SM UL were absolute jokes for my team and for most typical HM/NM groups, I recognize that encounters like that were horribly tuned for "LFR" types.

 

If they had simply put in 4 tier model like WoW, or at minimum left the old 3-tier (with proper tuning) they could get many, many more miles out of end-game content - provided they accompanied it with a complete cessation of all these stupid dumb-down moves in the path leading up to it (12x/tactical/sm gf coms rewards etc)

 

So many people talk about how the "minority" is the group of people that enjoy doing Operations, yet three tiers of content can last a group of people that spend 1-2 nights per week working on it a long, long time. IMO it sort of balances out in the end - at least when the game is not actively pushing people away from it.

 

TL;DR - Yes, the current average PuG is is of questionable skill, but blame the game. The game created the player in your PuG by incenting him to not see a need to develop any degree of skill.

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HMs can be done at least at 60 without much trouble - if you don't get kicked instantly for "underlevel" of course

 

As a new player, I am very reluctant to try something in hard mode if I haven't done it in tactical first -- I don't want to be learning the basic mechanics there. And I can't really learn the mechanics in solo mode.

 

It's a bit overwhelming feeling like "here I am at level 65, not quite halfway through the story, having never used a single XP booster, and I'm really unsure what to do when the fit hits the shan." Hopefully starting in on tactical mode will help with that.

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That's the main explanation. The class quest and KotFE story are so easy that you can get to max level without knowing how your class or the basic mechanics work. Then we have the endgame, where some flashpoints are laughably easy whereas others are as hard as they have always been.

 

The problem is that the divide between solo play and group play is too big, the learning curve is too steep for the majority of players. With the Eternal Championship, BioWare wants to introduce more players into endgame but I have doubts that this will be successful.

 

My suggestion would be to keep running group content in PuGs and be willing to explain. For example, in the Maelstrom run you had, it is possible that the players didn't even know what LoS is. So instead of saying "LoS the boss", maybe "hide behind the pillars" would have helped.

But I've also seen my share of players unwilling to learn. I just try to ignore those players and focus on the ones who want to improve.

 

Bioware wants to introduce more players to endgame? Lol what endgame would that be? Solo mode heroics and fps?

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As a new player, but one with lots of MMO experience, I understand your frustration. As experienced SWTOR players, maybe you can help me with mine.

 

I'm finding it bloody difficult to figure out how the game balances class interactions given the trivial content I'm hitting. And I'm struggling to figure out how my small family group can go through and do things that are more difficult.

 

Example: this afternoon, the wife and one kid (college age) and I go to do a flashpoint -- the next one in line, Taral V. We want to experience the content as much as we can, so we take the quest from what appears to be the "correct" questgiver (on Balmorra/republic side) and then figure out how to find the cruiser from fleet -- so far so good. But in talking with General not-Yoda each of us end up with a [sOLO] flashpoint in addition to our "complete the flashpoint" quest. And we then struggle to actually start the flashpoint -- it looks like the choices are "solo", "tactical" and "hard mode".

 

So we start it in "tactical" mode (I'm guessing that's "normal") but we have these three droids that trivially destroy anything in our path. So much for planning on tank, healer, ranged DPS and our one (melee) DPS companion. I gave up on tanking, I never could get aggro, so it seemed pointless. I can't imagine how I'd even figure out what "aggro" is if this was my first MMO.

 

Is there a way to play it "correctly" -- meaning tank, healer, 2 DPS? Is that now only for Hard Mode? Can we do Hard Mode while leveling?

 

It's just as frustrating for want-to-be-skilled-players, I promise.

This post sums it up. Even for someone attempting to become knowledgable and skilled they are blocked from doing so. I don't know exactly how, or where, it happened but Bioware shattered its progression trail.

 

gather round, it's story time.

 

This is a tale of a PvE player:

After finally making it the level 65 with the help of their almighty and overpowering companions they are now in a position where they decide they want to get in flashpoints and maybe even operations. They start in solo mode FPs all the while being carried by a GSI droid and/or an over powered companion. This gets them introduced to the environment that future FPs will happen, however, THE GSI droid and/or the companions do their very best to protect Bioware's almighty important subscriber. all the while this player goes through life with no consequences. Red on the ground, no problem.

They then brave the same content but in a group scenario. He's not ready for HM yet so he goes tactical and matches him with random people with random people. Roles mean nothing, so as a dps he starts pulling enemies cause if he doesn't, who will? By doing this he feels like the leader so he continues believing he's doing his group a favour. Success. Time to bump up to HM....He gets #rekt. Casual bob queues up with a group that insists he not pull everything because that isn't his role but casual bob doesn't really know his role. So he has two choices: (1) learn from these people, or (2) return to tactical and remain casual for the rest of his swtor career (lasting probably a month until sub runs out).

 

But good news! casual bob chooses option (1). The story continues.....

 

He joins his group's guild and they nurture him. They show him dulfy and her guides. They introduce him to parsers. They teach him about buffs, cool downs and team play and one day they even invite him to do a SM operation. Casual bob is stoked. he goes in, he's rough but in the end successful. It happened, he's got the bug. Now it's all he can think about and all he wants to do when he plays. Casual bob works on his skill and his gear and eventually joins his guild HM team (if they have one, if they don't, he either remains a SM warrior for life or leaves them to find a HM guild).

 

Casual bob gets promoted and the narrator of his story starts calling him "mildly adept" bob. Mildly adept bob starts on EV and KP as he's told they are the easiest HM operations and a good starting point. His guild already has these operations on farm so he experiences it, yells "success!" and carries on with his 220 gear (or even 224 if its the Highlighted that week) He has yet to progress in anything because ever since he met his guild they have helped hold his hand.

Then, one day, Mildly adept bob travels into uncharted territory with his team and they try DF HM. He's been told this one is a bit harder and is one his team hasn't fully cleared yet. Mildly adept bob is excited to test his skills, knowledge and gear with the challenge. They clear Nefra with it being a bit shaky through the encounter but nonetheless walk away victorious. At this point mildy adept bob has convinced himself he is the king at this game. He naturally plays a marauder (because two lightsabers...) and is toping the parser cause...well.....he's a marauder. Nothing could stop him now....Enter Draxus.

 

Gets eaten alive, destroyed, obliterated, turned inside out and spat out.

 

Humbled to his core, mildly adept bob doesn't feel deserving of his title (and his narrator agrees) but he has one of two choices: (1) say "screw this" return to SM and easy HMs or (2) don't give up, keep learning and pressing on.

Hooray, recently humbled, mildly adept bob chooses option 2. The story continues.

 

After months of bashing his head on the second boss of every HM op with his team, he finally decides he needs to find a more "skilled" guild to run with. The decision is hard but this is what he wants to do so he rips the social fabric that created him and starts to forge himself into something new. He becomes Newly improved mildly adept bob. He solidifies a tryout with a HM guild on the verge of going NiM. He performs in his tryout (which was new to him in the first place) and joins this team. They show him their strats and help him in clearing a majority of HMs (all except master/blaster in Rav and Revan in Tos). His life narrator promotes him to HM raider Bob (yes, bob gets a capital now).

 

After months of highlighted hardmode completion (more or less) HM raider Bob is decked out in 224s and his team has become so efficient in HM that they start making fun of it buy putting tanks in Dps gear or single healing it. They feel like gods. Masters of HMs and feel they deserve to start calling them selves players in the top percentile of the game. The next logical step....NiM

 

HM raider Bob experiences his second humbling process but unlike before he is left confused. He has the best gear. Plays the best class. Has the best team but cannot make it past any of the first bosses in NiM. HM raider bob never learned how to mechanic, dps (without tunneling), cooldown, adrenal, and be raid aware all at the same time, and even if he did, not to the level NiM requires. He now realizes there is a group of players that far exceed him and has his choice of leaving his group for a NiM guild, working on his current team to pass these incredible challenges or quit the game.

 

Well, Bob's narrator explains that very few NiM guilds remain and those that do are on life support. Not to mention the fact that they won't take him cause he has "no NiM experience" which in itself is flawed because how do you get NiM experience to join a NiM guild if they are the only ones who can do NiM? The answer is, these raids have been cleared over and over (at tier) by these guilds and they will not tollerate failing to a 3 year old op which has been level bumped 3 times (*looks at you TFB*). Because of this NiM guild dwindle in numbers and the players that bring the community the Dulfy guides, star parse, parsely, etc. don't play this game anymore and sooner or later won't support this game anymore leaving (recently promoted) "Enlightened" Bob in a swtor world with no dulfy, no parser, no leaderboard, and likely very few successful kill videos explaining how to do said operations.

 

Enlightened Bob thinks to himself and says NiM only drops vanity items, there really isn't a need to do it. So Enlightened Bob remains a HM raider for a few months and starts to get bored because of how well his team crushes HM. Then Enlightened Bob notices (as he does not live in the US) that his subscription to the game with the exchange rate to USD is actually casting him $23/month for a game that bores him and stunts his progression as opposed to $15/month.

 

And then it happens...Enlightened Bob finally sees. Bioware's focus isn't on him, it's on a former version of him, the dumber version of him. The version that didn't understand the company that makes this game. Bob is sad. He turns of his computer and walks away, never signs in again, and the community is sad that this story ended...

 

[Edit] My employer will not be very happy if they knew that they paid me to write this lol

#BoredAtWork

#BoredInSwtor

 

[Edit#2] Holy **** this thing's long lol. I don't even want to re-read it to fix grammatical errors and spelling mistakes lol. Don't waste any part of your week end reading this lol....save it for like monday or something haha.

Edited by Joran-Koon
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