For all of those not familiar with this set up, I'm have been compiling a series of lists cataloging the most powerful Force users, Jedi and Sith created through discussion and debate, as opposed to simply giving our own personal opinions. These lists are now complete - though likely subject to change in the near future - and can be checked out in the index. In this case however I am moving a way from Force abilities, and looking to another integral skill of Force using individuals - lightsaber skill. Note that I'm not asking for a list of who you think the most powerful Sith lightsaber duelists are - and by power I do indeed mean skill. As before we'll do this one position at a time.

So without further ado, lets move on to the next list in the series. Sith lightsaber duelists. There are no canon statements regarding the most skilled duelists, however the first five positions will be pre-determined in accordance with the original lightsaber duelist thread. Also note that this list consists of Sith only, which excludes any informal Force users who may have drawn on the dark side of the Force.

Anyway, the template!

1. Darth Caedus

2. Darth Sidious

3. Exar Kun

4. Darth Vader

5. Count Dooku

6. Darth Maul

7. Blademaster Kas'im

8. Darth Krayt

9. Ulic Qel-Droma

10. Darth Bane

NOTE: Again before some wise guys draws our attention to this quote: "If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old Masters." you should take note that ancient Sith are not been considered for this list due to lack of information. Not that this quote is entirely irrelevant to the skill of lightsaber duelists in the Old Republic era.

Like before I'll update this list as we go along, so first on the agenda - who gets #6?

I'd also like to draw everyone's attention to a proposed revision made my myself to the REAL Most Powerful Sith list:

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I think I'd like to revisit this list because I feel that Traya should take #8 as opposed to Malgus.

Now this may just be my fanboyism talking, but I have reasons.

Namely I feel that Traya's abilities in terms of Alter have been underestimated. Malgus has shown himself capable of choking out Jedi but there are limits to his capabilities. He was only able to choke Jedi in the throes of fury and in such throes was unable to kill more powerful Jedi such as Ven Zallow, his Padawan and the the Zabrak Jedi on Alderaan who collapsed building on him - who we can assume was above-average/powerful.

Now I'm sure its obvious why I'm drawing attention to this, and that is because in KOTOR II Traya effortlessly Force chokes a well prepared Darth Sion - much more powerful than Zallow and the like - proclaiming "your strength is as meaningless as the strength of my hand." Now the tenuous argument can be made that she was using Malachor's energies but it is, tenuous. For one she does it in such a relaxed and nonchalant manner indicating that this is of no difficulty to her, and she has choked Force sensitives with ease in the past.

I'd also point to one version of the Jedi Council meeting where Kreia Force crushes each Jedi as she berates them in turn. Now while this was cut from the actual game I feel only because it seem disjointed and just not as cool as her Force draining them - not because they began second guessing whether she was capable of doing this. Clearly that scene and this one were demonstrating how dwarfed these individuals are by Traya.

And of course, a comparison between Sion and Malgus can be drawn. With Sion arguably being capable of channeling his anger to a much greater extent than Malgus. Indeed I feel he is underestimated somewhat, we are forgetting that he was able to sustain almost any injury simply through raw Force power.

Force drain is also worth a mention, as Darth Bane demonstrated that it demanded a great deal of raw power, yet Traya was able to annihilate the entire Jedi Council with it. I think that matches Malgus' impressive feats in terms of telekinesis, lightning etc. and she already has the advantage in terms of Control and Alter.

And finally I'd throw in the fact that this would be more congruent with the Most Powerful Jedi list, in which we have Revan and Meetra inhabiting #7 and #8 and Satele Shan at #10 i.e. in different (though not massively different) leagues. And I think we'd all agree that Traya is most certainly in league with Revan and Meetra. Whereas Malgus seems more on par with the likes of Shan, of whom the disparity between is minimal to say the least.

Anyway this is just my opinion, I encourage discussion on this matter.

I also encourage that we reconsider Sion's capabilities, I feel brushing him aside doesn't do justice to his power.

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As this is a community drive series, I'd like everyone to consider this before any action is taken. But it would be great if we could have any many opinions as possible to reach a most accurate conclusion.

Feel free to make any brief comments here but more lengthy posts should be directed to the thread itself.

We're including Dark Jedi in this list, yes?

Also note that this list consists of Sith only, which excludes any informal Force users who may have drawn on the dark side of the Force.

Fraid not.

My nominations/suggestions for 6th are Maul, Bane, and Krayt for now.

Ulic Qel-Droma could be interesting as I'm not sure if he supposed to be considered for this list or the general lightsaber list. What you guys think?

Also what about the Kun vs Vader for #5 Sith?

PS-Beni I think you should also provide a link in the index thread to the "REAL Most Powerful Sith Lord" thread you made like a month ago.

PPS-Doing this at the same time as a BattleZone!! My Life is now complete!

(A lot of disjoint thoughts in this post )

Edit: Kas'im may be a suggested nomination for later in the list

We're including Dark Jedi in this list, yes?

Is Ventress who you're referring to?

Fraid not.

Alright then. My nomination for #6 will be Darth Maul. I've always thought of him as very close to Dooku in terms of lightsaber skill.

Is Ventress who you're referring to?

Amongst others, yes.

I agree on Darth Maul being the logical choice for #6 - I can't think of anyone else who could rival your skills.

Not sure what that has to do with this topic, but thanks for the compliment.

Could Asajj Ventress technically be considered for the title of Sith? I mean kind of... technically... Palpatine wanted to institute the Rule of One and he had all but thrown out the Rule of Two and only used it as a pseudo-mechanism to keep Tyranus and the likes from ganging up on him.

So technically, maybe, sort of she could possibly be considered a kind of Sith Apprentice.

Could Asajj Ventress technically be considered for the title of Sith? I mean kind of... technically... Palpatine wanted to institute the Rule of One and he had all but thrown out the Rule of Two and only used it as a pseudo-mechanism to keep Tyranus and the likes from ganging up on him.

 

So technically, maybe, sort of she could possibly be considered a kind of Sith Apprentice.

Regardless given that she has not mastered a single lightsaber form, I doubt she'd make this list. She may be powerful but she is lacking in skill and very much outclassed by other Sith Lords.

Also what about the Kun vs Vader for #5 Sith?

Erm, what about Malgus vs Traya for #8 as suggested above?

no to both. Traya doesn't have big enough feats to topple Malgus I feel. Same with Kun topping Vader. While Traya and Kun may have more esoteric abilities I feel both Vader and Malgus have greater raw power. And to me Raw power beats out esoteric by a slight margin when talking about "most powerful."

No to Traya over Malgus, yes to Kun over Vader, I dont feel Vader beats Kun out in raw power, i'd say they are near equals, Kun just has Sorcery and Alchemy on top of that.

EDIT: Am not actually sure on Traya vs Malgus, honestly I'd lean to Malgus because he mastered some really big time powers himself and that is on top of his powerhouse type of connection he has to the Dark Side.

no to both. Traya doesn't have big enough feats to topple Malgus I feel. Same with Kun topping Vader. While Traya and Kun may have more esoteric abilities I feel both Vader and Malgus have greater raw power. And to me Raw power beats out esoteric by a slight margin when talking about "most powerful."

So I don't feel its a question of esoteric vs raw power here. I think that's what we are mistakenly assuming.

EDIT: I just see the fact that Traya could choke powerful Force users Malgus was incapable of choking as a strong indication that she was the superior Force user. Malgus just seems to be more outward in his showings.

Given that Galen Marek was not considered for the Most Powerful Sith list then I'm afraid not.

 

Regardless given that she has not mastered a single lightsaber form, I doubt she'd make this list. She may be powerful but she is lacking in skill and very much outclassed by other Sith Lords.

That's nonsense. She is very clearly a master duelist.

That's nonsense. She is very clearly a master duelist.

That is pure conjecture I'm afraid. Wookieepedia not counting as evidence.

I'm not using Wookieepedia.

I'm not using Wookieepedia.

I personally agree with Unduli's assessment.

That is pure conjecture I'm afraid. Wookieepedia not counting as evidence.

She duelled with and survived: Obi-Wan, Anakin Skywalker, Darth Tyrannus, General Grievous, Mace Windu, Sora Bulq, Luminara Unduli and a long list of other names, she beat plenty of them and fought equally even with Windu.

The evidence speaks for itself.

I'd like to see where exactly its stated that Ventress mastered a single form.

 

I personally agree with Unduli's assessment.

Unduli's assessment of her skills was early in her career (if you trust the timeline the Wookiee gives on her page, which incidentally makes Plo Koon vastly superior to Unduli )

Regardless, through simple observation we can judge that Ventress is a master of Jar'Kai and Makashi.

She duelled with and survived: Obi-Wan, Anakin Skywalker, Darth Tyrannus, General Grievous, Mace Windu, Sora Bulq, Luminara Unduli and a long list of other names, she beat plenty of them and fought equally even with Windu.

 

The evidence speaks for itself.

The duel with Sora Bulq is a bit circumstantial.

The duel with Sora Bulq is a bit circumstantial.

Every duel contains circumstances, however her ability to duel with and contend with these names is indicative of a larger skill than a lot of people credit her with

Unduli can say what she wants but she has always represented just another Red Shirt Jedi to me.