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Scoundrel dirty fighting score card

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
Scoundrel dirty fighting score card

WasabiJack's Avatar


WasabiJack
02.01.2013 , 01:24 PM | #1
Ravashakk has inspired me to try dirty fighting. I've been a die hard scrapper since Beta.

My spec is a little different and I tried a 31 dirty fighting and a sawbones and scrapper hybrids. I think the scrapper/dirty fighting hybrid is the best for max dps.

Here are the results. I was able to out dps all classes except very good smashers. I was able to get 975 dps on a voidstar which unfortunately I did not screen shot and 780k dmg on a civil war which I thought I screen shot but it's not in the folder. I will next time and it's reproducible I think.

Full Dirty Fighting

Full Dirty Fighting

Full Drity Fighting

Dirty Fighting / Sawbones

Dirty Fighting / Sawbones

Dirtyfighting / Scarpper

Dirtyfighting / Scrapper

Ravashakk's Avatar


Ravashakk
02.02.2013 , 10:52 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by WasabiJack View Post
Ravashakk has inspired me to try dirty fighting. I've been a die hard scrapper since Beta.

My spec is a little different and I tried a 31 dirty fighting and a sawbones and scrapper hybrids. I think the scrapper/dirty fighting hybrid is the best for max dps.

Here are the results. I was able to out dps all classes except very good smashers. I was able to get 975 dps on a voidstar which unfortunately I did not screen shot and 780k dmg on a civil war which I thought I screen shot but it's not in the folder. I will next time and it's reproducible I think.

Full Dirty Fighting

Full Dirty Fighting

Full Drity Fighting

Dirty Fighting / Sawbones

Dirty Fighting / Sawbones

Dirtyfighting / Scarpper

Dirtyfighting / Scrapper
First off, I want to say I'm glad I inspired you to try a spec that most consider terrible.

As for my opinion on your assessment of hybridizing the spec, I have a few thoughts. By hybridizing with sawbone you lose a lot of dps in favor of getting more survivability. This might be favorable in situations where you don't have healers, so you rely on yourself. For the DF/scrapper hybrid, I think it doesn't work and here is why.....you can't get high enough in the tree to get the really good dps talents without sacrificing even better ones in DF. You get an upper hand ability in the scrapper tree, when you should be using Cull (which does more dmg than shoot first when specced accordingly) So what you're left with are some decent utility talents that don't really give you a lot compared to the dps you'd lose from not taking top DF talents. Now, if you make it work, then by all means. These are just my opinions on the matter when I tried hybridizing. Lot of which got disproven when I found out how much our main attack gets boosted by our top talents when lined up.
Medicine/Lethality PVP Patch 2.3
I don't tab dot to fluff my damage...I tab dot so that when I'm done wrecking your buddy, I can move right on to wrecking you.

WasabiJack's Avatar


WasabiJack
02.03.2013 , 10:16 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravashakk View Post
First off, I want to say I'm glad I inspired you to try a spec that most consider terrible.

As for my opinion on your assessment of hybridizing the spec, I have a few thoughts. By hybridizing with sawbone you lose a lot of dps in favor of getting more survivability. This might be favorable in situations where you don't have healers, so you rely on yourself. For the DF/scrapper hybrid, I think it doesn't work and here is why.....you can't get high enough in the tree to get the really good dps talents without sacrificing even better ones in DF. You get an upper hand ability in the scrapper tree, when you should be using Cull (which does more dmg than shoot first when specced accordingly) So what you're left with are some decent utility talents that don't really give you a lot compared to the dps you'd lose from not taking top DF talents. Now, if you make it work, then by all means. These are just my opinions on the matter when I tried hybridizing. Lot of which got disproven when I found out how much our main attack gets boosted by our top talents when lined up.
Actually I've been playing all three quite a bit, and switching it around. The Scrapper/DF hybrid seems to have the best dps potential.

Let me explain. I exchange cull (wounding shot) for sucker punch. Sucker punch, in my mind is better because I don't need to have two dots on the target to get max dmg, it cost a lot less. The reason not having dots is better is you can dot everyone up, throw your dot grenade on a group but select a target close to you to do your close up rotation which becomes back blast -> blaster whip -> sucker punch. Now Sucker punch will grant upper hand 50% of the time. So you got another sucker punch half the time which improves damage more. Consider these two thigns and the cost of back blast is lower and the damage on blaster whip is higher, your dps output overall is higher.

Waht you miss out from the full DF tree is the 15% more damage to people under 30% health is not that great because the people under 30% health don't stay below 30% for more than 1 dot tick. If even that. They either get healed up or killed. The other talent that prelongs the dot is good because you don't have to reapply dot and you will still get the crit for energy regen but to get max dps you want to be reapplying that dot anyway. The damage is not good from this prelong effect anyway.

I like hemorrahaging blast (top tier talent on df) but the damage for energy with this in combination with cull (wounding shot) is still about the same or worse than sucker punch with flying fist and round two.

I'm just getting more practice with the scrapper hybrid and will post some results later. I got 800k the other day but I think this build has potential for much more. It unfortunately requires a good support team to execute well.

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
02.03.2013 , 05:10 PM | #4
I think your analysis of the specs are a little off. You've stated you DoT everyone up then go with a low level Scrapper rotation on one person. Thats going to give you high damage numbers in any class but its not useful damage. Balance Sages can crack the million mark by just DoTing people up and FiBing groups but I wouldn't rely on one to kill anything.

A better measure of effectiveness in WZ is how quickly you can burst someone down or control an area/stop a cap. DoTs are terrible for both of those (aside from boosting Wounding Shots) and really just pad your damage numbers at the end. Scrapper is by far the best bursting spec, especially since they open from stealth with a knockdown so they've got potentially 9k damage on the target before they can respond.

DF on the other hand either opens with Shoot First which gets attention, then has to apply some DoTs before it can do its next round of burst or else they apply the DoTs and then go for a burst rotation either dropping into stealth or forgoing Shoot First

You can get similar (yes lower, but similar) numbers using full Scrapper and just DoTing everyone up, likewise full DF would also get similar numbers but DF is clunky because of UH generation which is what really holds Scoundrel DF back from Gunslinger DF in PvE, less of an issue in PvP where you can get back into stealth and use Shoot First more often.

TL;DR: Spamming DoTs and getting high numbers means nothing. Its not EFFECTIVE damage. Both Scrapper ad DF are better for EFFECTIVE damage.
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Ravashakk's Avatar


Ravashakk
02.03.2013 , 10:54 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
A better measure of effectiveness in WZ is how quickly you can burst someone down or control an area/stop a cap. DoTs are terrible for both of those (aside from boosting Wounding Shots) and really just pad your damage numbers at the end. Scrapper is by far the best bursting spec, especially since they open from stealth with a knockdown so they've got potentially 9k damage on the target before they can respond.
I've seen my corrise dart/vital shot double crit for 1500-1600 a piece. I'd say the average is in the 1-1.3k though.

Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
DF on the other hand either opens with Shoot First which gets attention, then has to apply some DoTs before it can do its next round of burst or else they apply the DoTs and then go for a burst rotation either dropping into stealth or forgoing Shoot First

You can get similar (yes lower, but similar) numbers using full Scrapper and just DoTing everyone up, likewise full DF would also get similar numbers but DF is clunky because of UH generation which is what really holds Scoundrel DF back from Gunslinger DF in PvE, less of an issue in PvP where you can get back into stealth and use Shoot First more often.

TL;DR: Spamming DoTs and getting high numbers means nothing. Its not EFFECTIVE damage. Both Scrapper ad DF are better for EFFECTIVE damage.
I agree with the idea that you shouldn't hybridize either spec, that they perform better when you specialize in that tree. I also agree with the UH generation issue in the spec. However, I do disagree with a few points.

1. No such thing as useless dmg. Some dmg is harder to heal through, but as a healer it is nerve wracking when everyone's health is going down and it feels like you can't keep them up. If someone is 3-5k health weaker when you switch burst targets, that is 3-5k dmg you don't have to do before that guy dies. This also makes it harder on the tank for guard swapping, since everyone is taking dmg. It is a matter of choice.

2. I disagree with Scrapper being the best burst spec. From a numbers point of view, scrapper cannot put out the burst that DF can. The difference, which you were hinting at, is the setup time. Scrapper's burst is front loaded and runs out of juice without blowing cooldowns, where DF's burst is back loaded and really never runs out of juice. Scrapper relies so much on coming from stealth, doing a rotation and getting back into stealth after killing. This doesn't happen often in competitive games, because someone is usually around to help out. If BW made the combat dropping mechanic similar to WOW's, you'd see scrappers doing a lot better in group encounters. Scrapper efficiency is also based on the class they are facing. Doing very well against weaker armor and not so well against heavy armored targets. DF does well against any armor class....which pisses tanks off when they take so much dmg.

My opinion, obviously.
Medicine/Lethality PVP Patch 2.3
I don't tab dot to fluff my damage...I tab dot so that when I'm done wrecking your buddy, I can move right on to wrecking you.

WasabiJack's Avatar


WasabiJack
02.04.2013 , 01:47 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
I think your analysis of the specs are a little off. You've stated you DoT everyone up then go with a low level Scrapper rotation on one person. Thats going to give you high damage numbers in any class but its not useful damage. Balance Sages can crack the million mark by just DoTing people up and FiBing groups but I wouldn't rely on one to kill anything.

A better measure of effectiveness in WZ is how quickly you can burst someone down or control an area/stop a cap. DoTs are terrible for both of those (aside from boosting Wounding Shots) and really just pad your damage numbers at the end. Scrapper is by far the best bursting spec, especially since they open from stealth with a knockdown so they've got potentially 9k damage on the target before they can respond.

DF on the other hand either opens with Shoot First which gets attention, then has to apply some DoTs before it can do its next round of burst or else they apply the DoTs and then go for a burst rotation either dropping into stealth or forgoing Shoot First

You can get similar (yes lower, but similar) numbers using full Scrapper and just DoTing everyone up, likewise full DF would also get similar numbers but DF is clunky because of UH generation which is what really holds Scoundrel DF back from Gunslinger DF in PvE, less of an issue in PvP where you can get back into stealth and use Shoot First more often.

TL;DR: Spamming DoTs and getting high numbers means nothing. Its not EFFECTIVE damage. Both Scrapper ad DF are better for EFFECTIVE damage.
Scrapper will obviously do better at bursting someone and I agree it is better than spreading dots, however dot damage is far from useless. Putting dots on people and draining their health slowly puts tremendous pressure on the healers. They still have to heal it.

Scrapper can not come anywhere close to the DF damage I think. If you have, I'd love to see a screen shot and how you did it. I mean post 1.6.

randiesel's Avatar


randiesel
02.04.2013 , 06:48 AM | #7
Neb, you've started a revolution. I see a lot of DF/Lethal specs running around warzones now.

And yeah, there's no way a crapper is going to compare. Did you see the screenshot of the kind of numbers Neb has been putting up? Think its in another DF thread.
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banehammer's Avatar


banehammer
02.04.2013 , 07:07 PM | #8
Loving the dialogue guys. Very constructive.
I'm a fairly fresh lvl 50, still really trying things out in 50 WZ's. This is all very helpful.

Keep it comin'
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JaingSkiratapwns's Avatar


JaingSkiratapwns
02.05.2013 , 01:11 AM | #9
I'm too lazy to upload a screenshot, but I did 700k+ in a voidstar dirty fighting spec.
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