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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Powertechs/Vanguards PvP-wise?


Siphorus

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I think you guys base your claims on the numbers you see at the end of the battlegrounds, but these are just stats they are just one viewing angle and they don't encompass the whole picutre, sometimes having the enemy's number low and winning is better than having your own numbers high and losing, it certainly pays better anyways.

 

If you want to win your 1 vs 1 roll a duellist class, PT is not a duelling class it might have been in the past, we enjoyed it but I don't think that was really the purpose of the class, every body likes to win duels, but sometimes you have to accept that is not what your class was designed/intended for.

 

PT shine at decreasing enemy's mobility, this in turn improves our team damage potential, and reduces enemy damage potential, and it stack very well with our other tools specifically dedicated to debuffing enemy's raw damage output.

 

Your whole argument does not stand and has been debunked in many posts either in this thread or in others, no matter how much font and colour you use.

 

a) the assumption that because PT/VG can use a tank spec then their DPS spec shouldn't be on par with "pure" DPS classes isn't valid, these specs are just unrelated. Your point is disproved by the 2 other tank classes that are capable or hitting high number in pvp and killing people quickly and by extension, the healing capable classes (at least for sorc and merc). Moreover, what is the point of playing a dps spec from tank capable class or healing capable class like commando/ sorc/AS? In the end, there is no point in playing a de facto average spec.

 

b) in your "analysis", you do not put back into context the current situation of the PT/VG as opposed to other classes be them assassins/commando or sentinel. Since 2.0, you will have noticed that dmg has been tremendously increased for the majority of the class but a few like VG/PT and perhaps AS (not sure about this class and ultimately, it doesnt matter in this thread) as well well as the number of HP.

 

c) I do not see how PT/VG "shine at decreasing enemy's mobility" unless they use a sort of hybrid build. Full dps spec are barely making an impact compared to other classes. That s a fact.

 

Pyro spec are fragile, have low burst, average utility, average sustained dps: what would be the point of playing them?

AP spec are less fragile, have even less burst, slightly lower average sustained dps and higher utility thanks to reduced CD: again what would be the point of playing one compared to another class say assassin?

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Your whole argument does not stand and has been debunked in many posts either in this thread or in others, no matter how much font and colour you use.

 

So you say, I disagree period. My opinion weights the same as anyone else sorry. lets settle this with backing up the arguments right ?

 

a) the assumption that because PT/VG can use a tank spec then their DPS spec shouldn't be on par with "pure" DPS classes isn't valid, these specs are just unrelated
.

 

WRONG,

 

all PT specs have a mass range taunt, a single ranged taunt, all 3 specs can use them without burning mana or GCDs

 

No Sniper spec have taunts.

 

Taunts are amongst the most powerfull pvp abilities in the game, there has to be a counter part to dps spe who can use them in favor of dps class/spe who can't use them.

 

See why the assumption is totally valid now, thanks. lets move on.

 

Your point is disproved by the 2 other tank classes that are capable or hitting high number in pvp and killing people quickly and by extension, the healing capable classes (at least for sorc and merc).

 

HARDLY

 

PTs can hit big numbers in PvP charts too, sorry if that does not happen to you, maybee you can't or maybee you do something else that is usefull. Numbers are merely a ( fail ) attempt at summarising the WZ,

they don't show who forwent his dps to cap,

to go reinforce while others finished their kills 5 vs 3,

they don't show that someone chain snared the enemy's marauders/juggs/sins and kept whoever in his team stayed on the move alive

they don't show your efforts in dragging 3 ennemies in chain chasing you around the map while your team defending the objectives 7 vs 5 endlessly bodied the rest of their team

etc...

 

Pts do just the same in a diffrent style, if you play your pt the way sins play it fails , if you play a sin the way you play a PT it fails, same goes with the juggs.

 

Moreover, what is the point of playing a dps spec from tank capable class or healing capable class like commando/ sorc/AS? In the end, there is no point in playing a de facto average spec.

 

then play your tank as a specialized tank, and roll a specialized dps class to dps if you don't like hybrids. proto PTs , pyro PTs, proto/pyro , shield/proto, shield/pyro are all hybrid dps/tanks like it or not, don't play them if you don't want totally you call.

 

But don't come here pretending you should have a snipers dps output just because you promise never to use your taunts in PVP, cause people like me will gladly take the sniper DPS and we will keep on taunting everytime it is up, and that wouldn't be fair to people who rolled a mara or a sniper.

 

b) in your "analysis", you do not put back into context the current situation of the PT/VG as opposed to other classes be them assassins/commando or sentinel.

 

I would if i could but i can't, and neither can you or anyone else, so cut the crap and bring facts, everyone can find a truckload of people ranting their class/spe sucks compared to X and Y, and we can find 7 times ( 23 times) more people ranting said class ( spe) is OP.

 

Since 2.0, you will have noticed that dmg has been tremendously increased for the majority of the class but a few like VG/PT and perhaps AS (not sure about this class and ultimately, it doesnt matter in this thread) as well well as the number of HP.

 

Very few classes have been buffed as much as PTs you are so biased. We are more damaging, more mobile and more resilient after 2.0, again it only matters with regards to other classes, and WE DON NOT HAVE ACCURATE DATA, all we have is a bunch of whiners emphasizing puny nerfs and blatantly ignoring the numerous huges buffs we got as the counterpart.

 

c) I do not see how PT/VG "shine at decreasing enemy's mobility" unless they use a sort of hybrid build. Full dps spec are barely making an impact compared to other classes. That s a fact.

 

That must be your problem, you fail to understand where classes/spe can outperform others now,

 

you focus only on your feeling that the class is **** because it doesn't outprform others in the departments "YOU" think it should outperform others. Read, think, engineer, try, tweak , test, adapt.

 

ook closer and you'll see. there are plenty things PTs can do well, do that and leave the rest to other class that do the rest better, and that includes both heavy dps and healing I am affraid.

 

It very welll might be that Pyro spe is slightly underperforming, pay 0, respec and play diffrently, or again roll a friggin DPS, or undust that one you left when people started to notice Pyro was overperforming and you followed the Fotm.l

 

Pyro spec are fragile, much less than before, have low burst, average utility, average sustained dps: what would be the point of playing them?

 

details please those staements look false to me or exagerated to the point of no credibility, I think you are biased.

 

AP spec are less fragile, have even less burst, slightly lower average sustained dps and higher utility thanks to reduced CD

 

details please those staements look false to me or exagerated to the point of no credibility, I think you are biased.

 

: again what would be the point of playing one compared to another class say assassin?

 

Go play an assassin, stop making a fool of yourself here, and enjoy your playtime as an assassin tis the best I can hope for you.

 

are asssssins OP ? maybee, but in what crooked logic would that be ground for a buff to PTs, if anything this is ground for a nerf to the incriminated class/spe/spells.

 

 

 

Burst, baby, burst.

Without burst any dps class in pvp just useless piece of sh*t.

 

WRONG,

 

flat dps pressure, dots, and AE damage are what put people in a situation where burst can be applied to finish them, and where the enemy's healers and tank have to guess which one of the whole half life dotted to death teammember is the one going to receive it.

 

burst dps in the only aprt of the iceberg noobs manage to see, but it is only one single variable into the equation.

 

Also on a side note to you all WZ chart centric scrubs, burst doesn't give big fat dps score at the end of the BG, if you burst well and focus well with other bursters, your score is low because people you focus die after receiving 10k damage from you, they are not healed for 70 k before falling.

 

And hell, pt tanks way worse for pvp than juggs and sin tanks. No guardian leap, no stealth, few cc... lolz.

 

Biased statement probably , care to detail to back up your claims please ? cause I fail to see for example how stealth help in protecting others, which makes me wary concerning the credibility of the rest of your statement.

Edited by Ajuntalee
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If you played pyro you would know how broken the spec is. It is pathetic. From your posts it does not sound like you play a vanguard or powertech. It sounds like you were making "nerf powertech" threads since launch. There is no burst in the class. Oh yeah thats right we have our little 10m tickle bomb.
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are asssssins OP ? maybee, but in what crooked logic would that be ground for a buff to PTs, if anything this is ground for a nerf to the incriminated class/spe/spells.

 

Uh, no.

 

Right now, the only dps subclass that can match the output of a healer is Rage/Focus. Assassin dps is also worthwhile because of their stealth and single target finishing abilities. These classes are OP relative to other dps subclasses, but they are fine relative to healers. Either those two classes AND healers need to be nerfed or the other dps classes need to be buffed (some more than others).

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I main a PT, I play hybrid tank/proto or full tank most of the time.

 

I would probably have written nerf pyro posts before for the same reason i think you can't have the dps of a sniper and taunts in the same character it is simply too much for one character and would make mara/sniper unwanted classes in BGs, i am for diversity of classes in BGs.

 

Pyro spec might be broken but you are not honest when you say it is

 

Because there is no way in hell you know yet, there are 8 classes , 24 spe, not even counting hybrids, not even factoring itemization, and countless play style and situations, noone can know all about all already.

 

What i can grant you is that Pyro and proto spe damage has been toned down.

 

what you can't deny me is our new shield mechanic, the defense stat new mechanic, hydraulic overides for all, Kolto overload,globally bigger healing outputs, the global nerf of unmitigated damage output , the increased damage granted to tank spe and the increased tanking granted to tank spe. all of which benefit us

 

The rest is pure speculation, PTs are diffrent, who here can say they have no room in PvP premades, I love mine, I have fun with it, noone asked me to reroll to keep on playing in the premades.

 

What i can tell you, based on verifiable facts , is that 90% of players who can taunt (sins/juggs/pts underperform in Bgs regardless of spe/class, and 50% of players who can taunt have a protection score of "0" at the end of the game which mean they never ever pressed the buttons. since there is no other explanation to this but "outright plainly sucking",

 

then

 

Surely you can understand my doubts here when people state PTs are useless while I know 50% of those very persons did 0 protection in their last WZ, and failed to use their most powerfull abilities. So yes Thoses PTs are really useless, but that is nowhere the class's design that is to blame.

Edited by Ajuntalee
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look closer and you'll see. there are plenty things PTs can do well, do that and leave the rest to other class that do the rest better, and that includes both heavy dps and healing I am affraid.

 

 

 

details please those staements look false to me or exagerated to the point of no credibility, I think you are biased.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, I eagerly await your detailled answer about what Pyro and AP PT/VG are good at. I dont care about the tank spec since it is a thread about VG/PT dps. Taunts are good but assassin and juggs can do that as well so you will have to go further than that. Oh and bring numbers and details please.

 

Now some number for the pyro spec:

 

when criting, HIB/Railshot hit for 6kish, FB/IP hit for 3kish, SS/RP hit for 4kish, SG/flechette hit for 3kish. Very similar to lvl50 pre2.0.

 

This isnt too dissimilar from pre 2.0 bar the fact that CGC/ Plasma cell DOT has been reduced by around 50%, TD/Assault Plastique isnt hitting for that much anymore.

 

In the meantime, HP have been increased, crit rating has been reduced and lots of classes can now hits for 7k+ in a regular manner.

 

I get these numbers with 2850 aim/ 754 dmg bonus /24.5% crit/75.6% surge/ 1882 expertise & 28-29k HP. I get high dmg number on the end chart but barely any kill. Why? because all these dmg are made mainly by weak dots from flame sweep, in short it s fluff dmg. However, playing Pyro spec before lvl55 will grant something that was always part of the pyro spec, that is: burst.

 

My survivability relies on:

- movement/placement (everybody can do that)

- heavy armor (provide 5% more protection than medium, doesn't protect from force/elem attacks)

- a shield that is on a 2min CD for 15 sec (reduce dmg by 25%).

- an immunity to movement impairement (not stun/mez though, 6 sec on a 30 sec CD)

- a HOT that heal me when I m under 30% HP and doesnt heal over meaning that it doesnt prevent me from being hit by execute moves from oter classes.

- arguably, a single stun and an aoe stun but they are also used for other purposes.

 

all that for a class that is fighting at 10m. The snare from sweltering heat is at 30% which is obviously weaker than most of the snare that melee have (50%).

 

Now I dont have number for AP, but they hit for less in exchange of increased survivability but since burst is king in pvp, it s a bit useless.

 

For further readings, go on the vanguard and powertech forums.

you have a video of the pyro dps here showcasing its lack of burst: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=642654

 

That written, I recommend that you stop making assumption about people, forgo bright colours in your post and have more respect for your fellow players especially when you dont know what you are talking about.

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I main a PT, I play hybrid tank/proto or full tank most of the time.

 

I would probably have written nerf pyro posts before for the same reason i think you can't have the dps of a sniper and taunts in the same character it is simply too much for one character and would make mara/sniper unwanted classes in BGs, i am for diversity of classes in BGs.

 

Pyro spec might be broken but you are not honest when you say it is

 

Because there is no way in hell you know yet, there are 8 classes , 24 spe, not even counting hybrids, not even factoring itemization, and countless play style and situations, noone can know all about all already.

 

What i can grant you is that Pyro and proto spe damage has been toned down.

 

what you can't deny me is our new shield mechanic, the defense stat new mechanic, hydraulic overides for all, Kolto overload,globally bigger healing outputs, the global nerf of unmitigated damage output , the increased damage granted to tank spe and the increased tanking granted to tank spe. all of which benefit us

 

The rest is pure speculation, PTs are diffrent, who here can say they have no room in PvP premades, I love mine, I have fun with it, noone asked me to reroll to keep on playing in the premades.

 

What i can tell you, based on verifiable facts , is that 90% of players who can taunt (sins/juggs/pts underperform in Bgs regardless of spe/class, and 50% of players who can taunt have a protection score of "0" at the end of the game which mean they never ever pressed the buttons. since there is no other explanation to this but "outright plainly sucking",

 

then

 

Surely you can understand my doubts here when people state PTs are useless while I know 50% of those very persons did 0 protection in their last WZ, and failed to use their most powerfull abilities. So yes Thoses PTs are really useless, but that is nowhere the class's design that is to blame.

 

Okay fair enough, I just did not see how pyro was overpowered pre 2.0. The Squishiest class that I can think of. It relied on one thing burst. That was pyros defensive cool down was their burst. Sure right now we can pull good numbers in PVP. We cant kill anything. Unlike a mara, sniper or jugg or in some cases a sorc. Don't even get me started with PVE. Operatives just laugh at us as we chase them around with our weak*** dot. Try and burst down a good healer. No healer should ever stalmate a dps.

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Fix the pyro powertech defensive CD's and we're good. Seriously.

 

Our rails hit as hard as your average SMASH, but we have nowhere near the kind of survivability sents have.

 

Average rail shot is about 6k the average smash is about 8.5k.

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I get these numbers with 2850 aim/ 754 dmg bonus /24.5% crit/75.6% surge/ 1882 expertise & 28-29k HP. Man you ve got some stuff i have 2200 aim 600 damage bonus/ 18% crit 70% surge/ 1600 expertise & 29 k HP, 10 % def, 30%shield, 20% absorb and 50% mitigation.

 

I get high dmg number on the end chart but barely any kill. Why? because you don't hit the same target as others and directly compete against a healer.

I get low damage numbers on the charts and plenty kills WHY ? Because I am such a pain in the *** for healers or focused target mobility that the real DPSes around me make short work of what they punch.

 

More important question how much damage do you prevent on that endchart ?

 

because all these dmg are made mainly by weak dots from flame sweep, in short it s fluff dmg. there is no fluff damage, unless you do split where the point is mostly CCing metagame oblivious *******, passive healing is a joke.

Aoe and tab dotting helps, it is not all about burst, it is very easy for a healer or 2 to maintain a single focused guarded someone alive against taunted ennemie. However it is very difficult for a healer and even two to decide who among the 6 players here including themselves has to be cleant and burst healed because everyone in the team is dotted, debuffed, snared and already half across his helath bar and one of them in 3 seconds is going to receive a serie of 3 heavy burst damage moves and die

However, playing Pyro spec before lvl55 will grant something that was always part of the pyro spec, that is: burst., you still have it, it is a bit less strong than before and you still have powerfull dots, delayed damage , aoe and debuffs the enemy still receives 2 heavy burst damage move and one medium burst damage move : yours, it is gonna pull the trick okay, give more credit to your decent wear and tear abilities, they are just as important as your decent execution abilities.

 

My survivability relies on:

- movement/placement (everybody can do that), not once you rooted, pulled, snared, stunned, carbonised them

- heavy armor (provide 5% more protection than medium, doesn't protect from force/elem attacks) it is still 3% more time for the healer to keep you afloat granted it is not as good as the 15% imrpovement I get, maybee you could consider a bit less damage centric gearing doctrine in the light of the fact it only really favors the classes tailored for DPS with spe tailored for DPS, you do know crit / surge ar on exponential diminishing returns you 'd get a lot of accuracy / defense by sacrificing a little of those two, and you could toss some aim and tech power in favor of a shield

- a shield that is on a 2min CD for 15 sec (reduce dmg by 25%). and in pyro spe reflects substantial amount of damage you forgot to mention

- an immunity to movement impairement and a slight speed boost (not stun/mez though, 6 sec on a 30 sec CD) an invaluable ability once you understand how much movement translates into efficiency, survavibility and teamwork.

- a heavy HOT that heal me when I m under 30% HP and doesnt heal over meaning that it doesnt prevent me from being hit by execute moves from oter classes. that passively triggers at the appropriate time and also a great buff considering how it was pre 2.0

- arguably (why arguably don't you have them ) , a single stun and an aoe stun on but they are also used for other purposes.

 

all that for a class that is fighting at 10m. better than 4 ask the MDPSes I burn in my oilslick spider net while orbiting them on hydraulic overrride at 7m. The snare from sweltering heat is at 30% which is obviously weaker than most of the snare that melee have (50%). Yes pyro has the weaker snares, but they can spread it on people at 30 m very efficiently without entering the fray, it only costs tapping tab, tips of the day pair it with a taunt, hush hush it is a secret.

 

Now I dont have number for AP, but they hit for less in exchange of increased survivability nope they hit harder the tankies like me and ( normally ) you and lesser the squishies like the mara healers sniper etc . But since burst is king in pvp, or so you've read on forums, you took it for granted , and maybee even it was true at the time, but still, has it ever occured to you it could be a biased statement of some fanboys, or only merely a bit outdated ? it s a bit useless. a conclusion based on a flawed hypothesis, and a fishy reasonning might very well be erroneous, lets just call that a belief , that is your belief, i have another one.

 

For further readings, go on the vanguard and powertech forums.

you have a video of the pyro dps here showcasing its lack of burst: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=642654

 

I can shoot a video of a marauder underperforming, and in a few weeks one of a jugg underperforming, i can even shoot a video of an Operative underperforming. Surely that will close the whole argument about operatives being overpowered. or maybee not because that doesn't prove anything, anyone can shoot a video of them doing their worst.

 

That written, I recommend that you stop making assumption about people, I am not making assumptions when I say one taunter out of two doesn't taunt AT ALL check it out yourself, hence there is a 50% chance you are part of that half, I am assuming nothing but I keep that statistic in my mind when I read the posts on that thread yours included. Forgo bright colours in your post well you already knew i wouldn't BANG you got me I am so predictable, props to you dude that was a tough one . and have more respect for your fellow players especially when you dont know what you are talking about. Isn't it you who are assuming stuff here and lacking respect ? by any chance does it simultaneously suggests that YOU know what you are talking about, ouh I sense a double assumption there. be carefull my young apprentice it appears you too are assuming a lot.

Edited by Ajuntalee
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I am not making assumptions when I say one taunter out of two doesn't taunt AT ALL check it out yourself, hence there is a 50% chance you are part of that half, I am assuming nothing but I keep that statistic in my mind when I read the posts on that thread yours included

 

Prove both of your statements please.

 

The rest of your "text" is based on the same kind of loose arguments.

 

I provided numbers that seem to be experienced by other PT/VG and the video was supposed to show how good pyro were at dpsing according to its author.

Edited by ceelaniri
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No, AP's problem is that it's hardest hitting ability is PFT - basically a slow stupid channel skill.

 

Most good players just walk or jump out of the AOE cone, despite the slow. The other half of the time, you just get bumped, pushed, or CC'ed out of it like a ping-pong ball.

 

If you can't land a lot of PFT, you are going to sit at the bottom of the DPS pile as AP. You have to remember to hit the hydraulic overrides before you fire it.

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Average rail shot is about 6k the average smash is about 8.5k.

 

Rail hit for about 6.5 or so if you're geared for it, I rarely see smash hit for more than 7-7.5 or 5k if you're AP.

 

That's close enough, considering we can chain rail back to back every six seconds.

 

The problem is defenses and healing. Pyro has none.

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What you need to do is go tank tree...

Being a vanguard tank, you are the third best tank.

Being an dps vanguard you are the 8th.

 

I really love the person who stated that a tank class shouldn't have a finishing attack as an argument against vg/pt having one. While strangely omitting that the other two tanks have them.

 

Again, vg/pt dps is on par with where it was, but everyone gained from gear increases while vg/pt gear increase brought it back to where it was nerfed.

 

How to fix it

 

PT/VG Overall

Shoulder cannon doesn't CD when it runs out of ammo It still holds its max(four or seven respectively), but they always regen at the normal rate.

 

Pyro/Assault

Restore the dot from assault/pyro tree.

Increase way to achieve more action. Something like if you have four targets on fire, your action bar increases 2x

Attack that makes all your dots finish their dots and do their accumulated damage at once on their targets(2 min cd)

 

Tank tree

*gains an attack that dimishes healing by 20% high in the tree,

*a grapple reset

*increase the chance of the ion proc

*ion proc prevents and takes players out of cover

 

AP

Increase area stun duration by two

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Rail hit for about 6.5 or so if you're geared for it, I rarely see smash hit for more than 7-7.5 or 5k if you're AP.

 

That's close enough, considering we can chain rail back to back every six seconds.

 

The problem is defenses and healing. Pyro has none.

 

I ve seen some smash from juggs hit me for 9k and i have 1880 expertise.

 

Not asking for railshot to hit for that amount but having it reach 7-8k would be nice and back in line with the amount of HP people have.

 

Or make TD hit for that amount, a bit like HSM for arsenal merc...

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