Help me with this.

So I pop onto a veteran flashpoint for the first time in years... I'll admit that maybe I've forgotten how things work. Get onto Hammer Station with a group of pubs. I'm tank. DPS person runs ahead, agros TWO groups of enemies by shooting at them from around a corner. I jump in to take all agro off of the DPS (my job as tank, if I remember), and DPS, without saying anything, runs ahead and leaves me and one other DPS to fight them alone. Everyone dies. Then they call me an idiot for attacking two groups of enemies, and start running ahead without telling us a dang thing about what they're really doing. Then he says we don't really know how to run a flashpoint.

 

So... is there something I'm missing? Was he just trying to speed run it or something? If so... shouldn't he either explain what he's doing first since he's with a bunch of random people with varying degrees of experience or save that kind of thing with a group of his friends or something? I mean, I'm fine speedrunning, I suppose, but is it automatically assumed when you start these days that it WILL be a speedrun?

but is it automatically assumed when you start these days that it WILL be a speedrun?

In FPs as old as Hammer Station, absolutely it's assumed that it's a speedrun.

 

And also, spamming speedruns of Hammer Station is the new meta for how to build your end-game gear. The explanation is a bit complicated, but less complicated than the new gearing system.

Yeh, Hammer stations are automatic speedruns those days. Also everybody expect using corner LoS, i.e. aggro pack, hide behind corners and wait them to come for aoe (that's why dps run too much away, so mobs could keep moving).

 

As for tank doing vets - preserver set will do a job with no healers around. Also it works in masters when healer is not geared enough.

I mean, I'm fine speedrunning, I suppose, but is it automatically assumed when you start these days that it WILL be a speedrun?

No! You can assume that there's a good chance that someone will want to do a "speed run", but you certainly can't assume that everyone will be doing a speedrun. And you're not obligated to "speed" yourself.

Flashpoints like Hammer Station are normally done fairly quickly these days by skipping a lot of mobs and taking short cuts, so it may seem like a speed run, but usually, people are progressing at a normal pace.

Occasionally you will run into some idiot who wants to speed run - speed runs are fine if most people in the group know what the speed runner is doing - but, as you can see, sometimes the speed run ends up taking longer because of party wipes, rage quits, etc.

Part of the problem is that there is a large group of people, such as myself, who regularly do Flashpoints just for grins, or to level up an alt, etc. But recently because of Conquest(?) there's also a group of non-regular players who want to do speed runs. Unfortunately, these people seem to think that everyone wants to speed run. 🤔

These days, if I encounter a speed runner in say, Hammer Station, I just let them run ahead. If they succeed to kill mobs, that's fine, and if they die trying, that's also fine. 🙂 Meanwhile I continue on at the normal pace.

 

I was in an HS group just the other day with a speed runner who rage quit after the first boss, because the rest of the group wasn't keeping up. I guess he thought restarting from the beginning would somehow be quicker. 🙄

 

P.S. There's really only 1 group in Veteran HS near the start that "needs" to be LOS'd. The rest of the groups are all close enough together to just be AoE'd normally.

Edited February 2, 2020 by JediQuaker

Even on speedruns you don't pull as a dps player. If dps players still do it, warn them twice, then vote kick them. If the vote kick fails, you can consider leaving the group yourself, which will have them wating for a substitute tank for quite a bit. And I'd generally put dps players who regularly pull mobs on your ignore list.

Even on speedruns you don't pull as a dps player. If dps players still do it, warn them twice, then vote kick them. If the vote kick fails, you can consider leaving the group yourself, which will have them wating for a substitute tank for quite a bit. And I'd generally put dps players who regularly pull mobs on your ignore list.

 

You seem to have missed that this is about veteran mode HS.

 

Anyone of any role pulling like an ape is likely to get kicked and get replaced by a companion or a very quick queue. Tank role is definitely not special in a FP where a dps can be 50 real levels higher than you.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Gyronamics

Even on speedruns you don't pull as a dps player. If dps players still do it, warn them twice, then vote kick them. If the vote kick fails, you can consider leaving the group yourself, which will have them wating for a substitute tank for quite a bit.

In veteran mode flashpoints, nobody "needs" to tank and tanks are not required, so you only have to wait for another player of any type - plus, of course, most of the time the missing player is just replaced with a companion - at least until a substitute shows up.

 

P.S. There's really only 1 group in Veteran HS near the start that "needs" to be LOS'd. The rest of the groups are all close enough together to just be AoE'd normally.

 

That's incorrect, not everyone has that 30m aoe range, plenty only have 10m range aoe. LoS just speeds things up. It's not necessary, but then you really don't have to los that mob right outside the starting area either.

 

Even on speedruns you don't pull as a dps player. If dps players still do it, warn them twice, then vote kick them. If the vote kick fails, you can consider leaving the group yourself, which will have them wating for a substitute tank for quite a bit. And I'd generally put dps players who regularly pull mobs on your ignore list.

You do if the 'tank' is level 20 and you're level 75. If a tank is over level 40 or so I'll usually let them try to tank, but anything less than that and they really can't do much.

 

That plus there are plenty of players who que as tank when they obviously don't know anything about the flashpoint. You really should play dps or heals when you're new to flashpoints. I don't mind if they at least say they're new, but hardly any of the clueless players do, they just run around like a headless chicken.

Even on speedruns you don't pull as a dps player. If dps players still do it, warn them twice, then vote kick them. If the vote kick fails, you can consider leaving the group yourself, which will have them wating for a substitute tank for quite a bit. And I'd generally put dps players who regularly pull mobs on your ignore list.

 

You seem to be missing that this discussion is about a veteran flashpoint, usually there is no tank there.

 

So yes, one of the DPS players will be pulling. Even if there is a guy marked with a tank icon, unless he is lvl40-50 or higher, he can't really survive anything if he pulls. Usually, the DPS player who can manage his personal defenses the best will be pulling, as he can confidently run into any group of mobs.

 

And well, these days Hammer Station have been run thousands of times, so many people will just automatically assume it's a speedrun, ignore what roles are there and just start running forward. The fact that most classes will not have any troubles surviving on their own ensures that roles really don't matter in HS. In quite a few other veteran fps it won't work like that, but there are also plenty of fps similar to HS in difficulty.

 

If it's Master Mode, then yes, I would expect the DPS players to wait for the tank to pull. It can be a bit frustrating for the DPS players if the tank is being unreasonably slow but in that case, personally, I would ask the tank to pick up the pace instead of just starting to run ahead of him.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Equeliber

That's incorrect, not everyone has that 30m aoe range, plenty only have 10m range aoe. LoS just speeds things up. It's not necessary, but then you really don't have to los that mob right outside the starting area either.

Let me clarify. I think that only that second mob right outside the start area, really benefits from LOS. (There is a small mob just before that that some people, including me, will LOS)

The rest of the mobs often don't benefit from LOS for two main reasons:

1. The time it takes to gather them up and LOS them is more than the time it takes to just kill them outright. For example, the group just past that 1st (or 2nd) group - in less time it takes for them to come around the corner and to then kill them, you could have just run around and killed them individually.

2. Most of the time, in Veteran mode HS, at least one of the players is not familiar with LOS, so the mobs end up being attacked before they are fully LOS'd, and much confusion ensues, sometimes resulting in wipes, deaths, RQ's, etc, making thing take longer overall.

 

But this is only my vague thoughts on the matter. I personally don't mind if people LOS or speed run, and sometimes some good grins can result. The main thing about speed running is - don't assume everyone wants to, or knows how, to speed run. Remember, it's just a PUG.

 

Basically, in HS, I think that LOS is not any faster in all but that one case. Personally, I like to LOS as my Gunslinger for the AoE, but I don't enjoy it as much on my Guardian, or Marauder, even though they also have good AoE.

Let me clarify. I think that only that second mob right outside the start area, really benefits from LOS. (There is a small mob just before that that some people, including me, will LOS)

 

For vet mode that probably is right. I think I'm just so used to doing bad MM runs with horrible tanks that anytime they mobs aren't LOS, it seems like you get the tank and both dps on one elite mob, while the rest are ignored and go straight for the healer.

 

At least if the mobs are gathered in a nice little group the 'ooh, I should AoE' lightbulb goes off.

That plus there are plenty of players who que as tank when they obviously don't know anything about the flashpoint. You really should play dps or heals when you're new to flashpoints. I don't mind if they at least say they're new, but hardly any of the clueless players do, they just run around like a headless chicken.

 

I personally don't give a rat's *** anymore when the GF pops up and I see a tank and/or heal icon in Veteran Mode. I've been in several Flashpoints where my Veng Jugg was listed as "Tank". I checked thrice, In group finder window "DPS" was selected as role, I was in Vengeance Spec and the loot selection thingie was on Vengeance*. It stopped doing that after I turned 75.

 

*: Is this thing even active before you turn 75? I am not really sure

For vet mode that probably is right. I think I'm just so used to doing bad MM runs with horrible tanks that anytime they mobs aren't LOS, it seems like you get the tank and both dps on one elite mob, while the rest are ignored and go straight for the healer.

Well, that is more a matter of holding agro than of LOS'ing. Even when LOS'd, if the tank doesn't grab agro, the mobs go after the healer anyway. 😏

(But, admittedly, LOS is better in that case.)

Edited February 4, 2020 by JediQuaker

Speed running seems to be the way right now. You should let people know beforehand that you're new or returning. They should be a bit more forgiving then.

If you are scavenging you can run past the first few groups and to the drill, "scavenge" it, use the shortcut and all mobs will reset. Maybe that was what he was trying to do. Stupid to try doing so without communicating it though.

 

These days, if I encounter a speed runner in say, Hammer Station, I just let them run ahead. If they succeed to kill mobs, that's fine, and if they die trying, that's also fine. 🙂 Meanwhile I continue on at the normal pace.

 

 

Agree

I'd have to say though, that stealthing to the first boss in Copero is fine with me. 🙂

For vet mode that probably is right. I think I'm just so used to doing bad MM runs with horrible tanks that anytime they mobs aren't LOS, it seems like you get the tank and both dps on one elite mob, while the rest are ignored and go straight for the healer.

 

At least if the mobs are gathered in a nice little group the 'ooh, I should AoE' lightbulb goes off.

 

So many idiots in MM do not understand the kill order of weak to strong, ranged / healing mob to melee, and all want to attack the champ or gold star melee while leaving all the little nasty weak ranged mobs to zerg the healer.

So many idiots in MM do not understand the kill order of weak to strong, ranged / healing mob to melee, and all want to attack the champ or gold star melee while leaving all the little nasty weak ranged mobs to zerg the healer.

One of the core themes that has fuelled the seven-year existence of "The Weird People you meet in Group Finder".

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=633655

Being a relatively new player I get the impression that veteran FP's skew peoples learning of class and target roles. Alot of players will automatically go to LoS just about every mob group in HS even if everyone's Lv75 and even when it's not needed. There's even those 4 bosses in Mando raiders that veteran runners will LoS even though the Kolto is not in the LoS spot and there's no healer to make up the difference. Honestly I can be running as the only non-lv75 in any veteran and everyone waiting for someone else to go first, I can't couint the amount of times I've been sub lv30 and I'm thinking someone's going to charge in but... they don't, so I do, and to make matters worse they hit the kolto thinking it'll help me more than if I hit it myself or they just generally use up the kolto... Whole parties killing the big/gold mobs first while the little ones pummel everyone (or me who's usually aoeing or tanking enough to have the aggro). Bosses almost outliving adds unless I, the tank, kill them.

 

These days if I happen to, for some reason (and I really don't get why people bother doing veteran once they've got 306, if this is the extent of your group content then 306 gear doesn't matter lol) be doing veteran runs on a lv75/306 then it'll be a DPS or tank. If it's a DPS i don't wait for the others I just mash up mob groups as they come and let the others catch up (assuming I know I can handle it alone or not) and if I'm tanking I'll probably run through 2-3 groups of mobs, poke some aggro on them along the way and LoS when I feel is a good time and then AoE them down with or without the help of the party.

 

It carries on to MM though in a lot of situations which I think are maybe learned from veterans but can't be sure of course. DPS don't get the adds or pick up the stragglers they just aim at the biggest things and I have to yell DPS GET THE ADDS because even though I have aggro on them if I have to run around killing them (especially if they're ranged) that's going to take longer and raise the chance the healer's getting aggro on things or the DPS take aggro on the boss while I'm busy. Likewise as DPS or healer I see a lot of tanks just going in at the big things, mass taunt, maybe AoE but otherwise not bother to build any actual threat, which is ok if I'm DPS because I'll be picking up the excess anyway but if I'm a healer I'm screwed if this is the tank I'm with. Which as a sage healer is sort of ok because if I'm taking loads of fire because of bad aggro control I can just hit force barrier and stay there and if this is why I'm doing it I'll stay there for the whole channel and if anyone dies IMO it's their fault for not bothering to look after their healer.

Edited June 4, 2020 by NayaruLovegood

Speaks of LOS, what's with people who LOS the second boss (the dude with two gold followers) out of the room into the small wall space beside the cannon? Is it a MM trick? Because I don't see the benefit of it in VM.

Idk, I think this is just a sign people are becoming more impatient and seeing the game as a tedious grindfest (for God's sake just quit already if you're that bored and unhappy) and LOSing literally anything so they can fluff it all down, against better sense that focus burning one thing at a time is better at times. I think healers also just can't stand the thought that they might need to heal spread out people or the tank who's not always going to be in melee range lol.

 

That los is just a stupid idea all around for MM HS 2nd boss, as well as a little stupid even for Vet Mode. The shields that pop up are going to make any aoe pretty useless, you're better off just focusing one at a time.

Speaks of LOS, what's with people who LOS the second boss (the dude with two gold followers) out of the room into the small wall space beside the cannon? Is it a MM trick? Because I don't see the benefit of it in VM.

 

Oh I LoS that on VM and MM but not in the way I've seen others do it. And I do this just so they're easy for melee range to aoe, easily especially if I'm guardian tanking.

 

Most people I've seen leading an LoS on these guys pull them back out of the room and into a corner which is way too much setup for such simple bosses. I just run in to the room, mass taunt and go into the corner to the left at the back so they all run over and I can pop back out into the open and merrily AoE them all at melee range without running around or losing sight of one due to the camera angle problems from facing the camera back out of the room to keep an eye on my healers butt. Usually i'm here doing this before the rest of the party has caught up and quite often I've dragged the last two mob groups with me too and they're all nicely set to get melee'd. Helps me be sure I'm keeping adds off the healer since modern day DPS players are crap at picking up any slack I may have and requires almost no extra setup or any need to tell anyone what I'm doing in advance. And tbh I find this fun, after a million HS runs I like to mix it up a bit.

Edited June 6, 2020 by NayaruLovegood

I just run in to the room, mass taunt and go into the corner to the left at the back so they all run over ....

It sounds like I may have been an HS run with you recently. I normally (Gunslinger) roll into cover on the left side of that room. From there I can AoE all three of them and/or attack each one individually.

But I was in there once with a Tank who gathered them all up way in the back left corner. That made it hard for me to target them, because they were out of 'my' line of sight. I had to leave cover and move more into the center of the room to attack them.

That may be fun for you, but not for me. 🙄 (but not really a problem either way😂 )

 

There is really no need to do anything special, like LOS, with those three, other than killing them in the usual order.

Edited June 6, 2020 by JediQuaker

I just run in to the room, mass taunt and go into the corner to the left at the back so they all run over and I can pop back out into the open

 

Just make sure you do 'pop back into the open'. I've had a few issues with tanks who love their little corner pockets, and end up LoS me when I"m healing. Either the tank is unreachable, or one of the dps ends up tucked into a corner. It leads to a lot of unnecessary dancing around just to be able to 'see' everyone.