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Open for suggestions, Zorn + Toth NMM with 2 Powertechs


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Currently having extreme issues with the fight.

We're currently having to wait during a swap for the other boss to walk back towards the other tank THEN tank swap.

Its a pain in the *** because the tank who has fearful has to deal with fearful for a good 2-3 seconds. We can't just run through due to Toth likes to do his Jump animation causing his stacks to add while in mid air. Out tanks are currently having to save cooldowns for certain phases. For example, after the spike phase we have to make sure fearful is off because we're DPSing too fast? (retarded mechanic I know). And this takes off so much time because we have to stop DPS in mid fight or either prepare a cooldown for it.

 

We run with

Tanks: Powertech, Powertech

DPS: Marauder, Marauder, Merc, Sniper,

Heal: Operative, Operative

 

Any suggestions would be helpful.

 

Heres a good list of problems I've encountered.

 

1.) Tank Swapping

Due to not having an OP Assassin to force sprint, we're having to have to deal with a tank taking fearful for a few seconds to make sure Zoth + Zorn don't get stacks.

2.) DPS is TOO FAST

Due to DPSing too fast, we have to stop DPS BEFORE a tank swap to ensure that fearful is off taking off precious time off our timer. Is there certain %'s we should have to deal with? I've found 88%, 68%, 48%, 28% to be the tank swaps.

3.) We're all currently geared in Dread Guard gear, and we're taking too much damage.

I'm so scared because of all the times I see my health lower below 20%, what can we do to make less damage go out for the healers? Like what cooldowns do you use at what phases. We're both Biochem and have Adrenals.

 

Once again, any suggestions would be great.

We've gotten through this fight once, but we've always had someone die towards the end.

Edited by PunisherAS
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I hope I can help you with this. The jump shouldn't be much of a problem. My guild does it with two Vanguard tanks currently and in this video with a guardian and vanguard, so we don't have the luxury of force sprint either.

 

 

We also have the same problem with DPS being too fast in our fights that we do now, holding for a few seconds shouldn't be an issue, usually we'll have our classes that can heal to pop off a heal or two while we wait.

 

If you have any questions I'd love to help you.

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I appreciate the help and video, but the differences damage/healing is a lot different from 8-man to 16-man.

We have two Melee on Toth and of course Me the Tank. There is too much damage going out which forces our 1 healer on our side to have to stress heal the Melee but try and prioritize the Tank over the Melee.

 

I did find this group of players that seems to be a great strat and we'll probably try it next Monday!

Edited by PunisherAS
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2.) DPS is TOO FAST

Due to DPSing too fast, we have to stop DPS BEFORE a tank swap to ensure that fearful is off taking off precious time off our timer. Is there certain %'s we should have to deal with? I've found 88%, 68%, 48%, 28% to be the tank swaps.

3.) We're all currently geared in Dread Guard gear, and we're taking too much damage.

I'm so scared because of all the times I see my health lower below 20%, what can we do to make less damage go out for the healers? Like what cooldowns do you use at what phases. We're both Biochem and have Adrenals.

 

Every guild will have more than ample DPS on this fight. There's barely a bump in health from HM. We stop DPS at 72%, 52%, 32% and 12% in order to let fearful wear off the tank on Toth's side. They usually have anywhere from 10-15 seconds remaining each time.

 

Whilst you're waiting for fearful to wear off, tell the melee dps on Toth's side to run far out of his slam range, unless they have the yellow circle. That way that won't take unnecessary damage. Additionally you can also get them to wait out of range after a tank swap until the first slam happens on Toth's side, then charge in and DPS.

 

This fight has insanely relaxed DPS requirements, so there shouldn't be any stress on the DPS. Get them to move away when necessary to avoid unnecessary damage.

Edited by krakl
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I appreciate the help and video, but the differences damage/healing is a lot different from 8-man to 16-man.

We have two Melee on Toth and of course Me the Tank. There is too much damage going out which forces our 1 healer on our side to have to stress heal the Melee but try and prioritize the Tank over the Melee.

 

I did find this group of players that seems to be a great strat and we'll probably try it next Monday!

 

Are your healers standing in with the melee? We run two sage healers on Toth who are both dropping their salvation (big aoe heal) on the group. The healing on that side is much more than manageable than the zorn side. The damage in 16 man is greater than that of 8. If you have a sorc healer put him on that side and make sure he's standing with the melee dropping his puddle.

Edited by Dragonbgone
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Here is how my guild normally do it, we have two tanks standing about 35 yards away from each other, both with the wall at their backs and bosses slightly in front on them, and then we have the rDPS on left side and mDPS on right. Healers are standing in middles so they are in range of both tanks and all DPS (in range of everyone to put it simple), just before they jump right group make sure to back away a bit to avoid fearfull (if their target is about to jump the just need to hug the wall to the right).

 

When Toth leaps, the tank on the right without any boss quickly needs to take Zorn, however the tank that has both bosses close does nothing and will thus have no boss on him during this time. Toth will still have aggro on the "right" tank even thought he leapt to the "left" tank, so he will start walking back, and as soon as he is going to hit the "right" tank, the "left" tank taunts him and he will walk back again. This way you will avoid a lot of damage in the beginning of the jump and your healers are able to compensate with healing to get everyone up, also important is for healers to keep both tanks at 90%+ just before the leap to avoid deaths.

 

By doing the tank swaps this way you will also be able to let a few seconds go, meaning that the fearfull debuff (if DPS is that high) will never be a problem even thought one tank might have a little left when the leap comes.

 

Some pictures of positioning:

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2042/regretzornandtothlayout.png

 

Swap tactics:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4134/theregrettankswappng.png

Edited by RikuvonDrake
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Is there a video of this method?

Reading it doesn't make sense. But seeing a video would definitely help.

 

Also that method involves the Ranged and Melee DPS switching sides constantly which seems to be more of a hassle rather than sitting still.

Edited by PunisherAS
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the is nothing wrong with 2 powertech, those are excellent tanking class.

 

Force speed isn't needed, i would even bet more than half of the assassin/shadow don't even use it for the switch and down the boss pretty fine.

 

Watch your positioning, you dont have to place both boss 60 meter appart, 35 - 40 is good enough.

 

tank of toth just need to react fast, as usual. Just target zorn a few seconds before the jump, when itjump run a few meter and taunt as soon as the 30m range. The whole process should not take more than 1-2 seconds with good tank.

 

After the jump, the tank of zorn just let toth go back to the other tank a while then taunt it back before it reach it. that way, he never have both boss hitting him.

 

Obviously the tank of zorn should stop dps a few seconds before the jump, to make sure not having feedback from fearful. Analyse your log, i am pretty sure that if you think the tank is taking too much damage from the jump, it's due to the tank hitting zorn with the fearful debuff.

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After the jump, the tank of zorn just let toth go back to the other tank a while then taunt it back before it reach it. that way, he never have both boss hitting him.

 

I honestly don't see why people do this, it's just so slow to wait for Toth to run back. Seriously, just when he leaps, taunt and run back. A way to expedite it would be to have the tank that had Toth prior to the leap Charge/ Leap to Toth then taunt Zorn as the other tank starts to run back (obviously having already taunted Toth). It would take the same amount of time for the stacks to drop (if done correctly) with a VG/ PT running back as it would with a Shadow/ Sin using Force Speed or a Jugg/ Guardian using Intercede/ Guardian Leap to a friendly. Hell, if you had a Sent/ Mara or a Sage/ Sorc you could have them pop Transcendence/ Predation or have them use Rescue/ Extrication.

 

Waiting for Toth to run back just wastes far too much time.

Edited by BlznSmri
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you gotta be careful that the tank of toth is not in the 30m of zorn during the jump, to not catch the fearful.

 

What i suggested is to reduced the occasional burst of damage on one tank. You are right is saying it's a slight waste of time, thus of DPS, but it also avoid burst on the tank. So it really depends on your group and the difficulty your group is facing. In essence, it's a form of kiting, it just is a tool you may or may not need.

 

For instance, if your group DPS is quite good, so good in fact you have to stop dps to not overlap the jump, doing what i suggest is not harmful, it is in fact safer for the tank.

 

If your DPS is not that perfect, and you need to rack up as much DPS time as you can, then don't do the kitting, have tank use cooldown instead.

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i feel like if i tell you this i may make the game UN-fun but you can completely break this fight and make it 100 times easier for everyone. here is how you do it.

start out like normal with the first boss swap.

when the yellow circle comes never take it to toth

when u see the yellow circle have 1 melee switch to zorn and the 2 ranged switch to toth

when toth is about 20-30% ahead on hp have the 2nd melee switch to zorn

kill both bosses.

 

no mechanics at all. no red circles. no aoe's no anything.

 

if the tank on toth gets a yellow circle swap with zorn tank.

the only people that take dmg here is the tank on toth the melee dps on toth and who ever zorn throws rocks at.

the healing can get sorta intense when u have 2 melee its obviously super easy with 3 ranged but it can be healed through just have the melee dps cycle cool downs when u need him to.

 

the AOE on toth will now only be 10 meters so healers can stand in the middle and heal the entire group instead of being separated

 

Toth takes less dmg than normal while in this state and that is the reason for leaving the 2nd melee dps on toth you have to push him down hard and you still want both bosses to die together.

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I honestly don't see why people do this, it's just so slow to wait for Toth to run back.:mad:

 

No stacks on any of the bosses when they reach the tanks, as well as avoiding having fearfull on one of the tanks during leap, this happeneds when DPS is good so maybe not the case for everyone but we had problem with it and handled it this way.

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Because this way, if done correctly, you get 0 stacks on the bosses.

No stacks on any of the bosses when they reach the tanks, as well as avoiding having fearfull on one of the tanks during leap, this happeneds when DPS is good so maybe not the case for everyone but we had problem with it and handled it this way.

 

The bosses are always going to get stacks, and they fall off as soon as the bosses are out of range of each other. So long as the Tanks are topped off by the time of the switch, and the Zorn tank doesn't get any reflected damage from Fearful, there'll be no problem. Also, the Zorn tank is ALWAYS going to get Fearful, which is the whole point of the swap in the first place.

 

you gotta be careful that the tank of toth is not in the 30m of zorn during the jump, to not catch the fearful.

 

Tank Zorn at the tree over by the Cave entrance and tank Toth just under where the Task Master leaps down. Never have to worry about fearful.

Edited by BlznSmri
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The bosses are always going to get stacks, and they fall off as soon as the bosses are out of range of each other. So long as the Tanks are topped off by the time of the switch, and the Zorn tank doesn't get any reflected damage from Fearful, there'll be no problem. Also, the Zorn tank is ALWAYS going to get Fearful, which is the whole point of the swap in the first place.

 

You describe the mechanic correctly, but are unable to understand the tactic I wrote on the first page, so let me explain to you. Being topped off is naturally the best plan, for every situation, however in Nightmare that is hard as the amount of damage is very high, it is possible but at the same time hard. Regardless, when Toth jumps, they start to get stacks and they will continue getting them, then the tank that hard Zorn taunts Toth, and when he starts to get back, he loses his stacks before he hits the tank. Same on the tank whom now has swapped to Zorn, his boss, when it comes in range of the tank, will have lost his stacks before he can hit the tank.

 

Fearfull is a problem if the groups DPS is "to high", as the switch happened at specific % at the bosses, one tank may still have the fearfull debuff from the previous jump. However using the tactic written above (more details on first page in my post), you are able to delay the encounter of Tank vs Boss until the tank has lost his fearfull debuff.

 

It is correct that the entire swap centers around the fearfull debuff, you are once again able to describe a mechanic correctly but not able to understand the tactic that I wrote on the first page. Using the tactic I wrote, you are however able to handle a situation when BOTH tanks have the fearfull debuff (one tank still have 5-10 s left on his debuff).

 

Tank Zorn at the tree over by the Cave entrance and tank Toth just under where the Task Master leaps down. Never have to worry about fearful.

Where you tank the bosses are different from most guilds, however how my guild and MoX, Chosen, Ace, FriendlyFire tanks it (all guilds 16man EC Nightmare) is considered one of the best ways, not the best, there might be other ways, but it is one of the best. Feel free to try it out.

Edited by RikuvonDrake
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It is correct that the entire swap centers around the fearfull debuff, you are once again able to describe a mechanic correctly but not able to understand the tactic that I wrote on the first page. Using the tactic I wrote, you are however able to handle a situation when BOTH tanks have the fearfull debuff (one tank still have 5-10 s left on his debuff).

 

Single Taunt Guarantees aggro for 6 seconds (unless overridden by another taunt) and then you can use your AoE taunt to maintain, and build (110% of threat it would take to pull per taunt if if you were in Melee range) for the remainder of the Fearful debuff. Each 20% dip in boss health takes anywhere from 45 to 60 seconds so if necessary you can use taunt more than once on the occasion that you can't damage the bosses due to fearful.

 

Where you tank the bosses are different from most guilds, however how my guild and MoX, Chosen, Ace, FriendlyFire tanks it (all guilds 16man EC Nightmare) is considered one of the best ways, not the best, there might be other ways, but it is one of the best. Feel free to try it out.

 

I have tried it, in fact the other (well, now only) raid group does the strat the same way (tanking them across from each other, waiting for Toth to run back), but when they've done it the way I've described, they've said that it's arguably better in terms of positioning and down time on the bosses.

 

Edit: I understand waiting for Fearful to fall off and the reasoning behind it, and I often personally kinda wish that DPS was a little bit lower so that my Deflection and CC Breaker CDs are off by the time I get to Berserk/ Red Circles, but Fearful is perhaps the easiest mechanic in the game to adjust for, since it's not affected by RNG (from defensive stats, or where and how frequently you're targeted by Red Circles).

Edited by BlznSmri
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Single Taunt Guarantees aggro for 6 seconds (unless overridden by another taunt) and then you can use your AoE taunt to maintain, and build (110% of threat it would take to pull per taunt if if you were in Melee range) for the remainder of the Fearful debuff. Each 20% dip in boss health takes anywhere from 45 to 60 seconds so if necessary you can use taunt more than once on the occasion that you can't damage the bosses due to fearful.

Tanks only need to use taunt and then some HP booster or some kind of pull and their aggro is solid as they get the aggro from the last tank, they don't start at 0 so even having 10s left on fearful, that I have had from time to time, is easily manageable.

 

I have tried it, in fact the other (well, now only) raid group does the strat the same way (tanking them across from each other, waiting for Toth to run back), but when they've done it the way I've described, they've said that it's arguably better in terms of positioning and down time on the bosses.

Depends, there is almost never a time where DPS cannot hit, tanks won't lose aggro if they don't hit for 5s even 10s, but I guess it's all down to what you are used to, if you tactic works better for you, I won't force you to change it. Positioning can be a little tricky, the tank that Toth leaps FROM will have to take a few steps forward to taunt the boss, and this can sometimes be a little slow if the tank is slow. Also, the tank that Toth leaps TO might wait to long, or to short to taunt as he is unsure about the correct timing =)

 

Edit: I understand waiting for Fearful to fall off and the reasoning behind it, and I often personally kinda wish that DPS was a little bit lower so that my Deflection and CC Breaker CDs are off by the time I get to Berserk/ Red Circles, but Fearful is perhaps the easiest mechanic in the game to adjust for, since it's not affected by RNG (from defensive stats, or where and how frequently you're targeted by Red Circles).

I agree with you on some points, I think that fight is boring and want to get on the tanks instead, so I wish my DPS was faster, regarding CC breaker, try the middle tree for specc and you should be fine. At least that is what I am doing and it works like a charm, and you want that specc for Kephess as well for the interrupts on droids.

Edited by RikuvonDrake
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Tanks only need to use taunt and then some HP booster or some kind of pull and their aggro is solid as they get the aggro from the last tank, they don't start at 0 so even having 10s left on fearful, that I have had from time to time, is easily manageable.

 

That suggestion was for if you thought holding aggro off of some over zealous dps was going to be a problem.

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