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New player solution


iiezl's Avatar


iiezl
06.12.2015 , 12:05 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by caederon View Post

Would a bolster system prevent new pilots from flying slowly in a straight line at a target and unleashing their furious maxxed burst lasers from 10k out? Would a bolster system direct new pilots to correctly defend a satellite when they are instead fighting out in the middle of empty space? Would a bolster system teach a new pilot the value of sticking with their team instead of freelancing wantonly with no regard to the tactical situation in a match? Would it teach them to lock missiles?

Despon
Despon, I have taken the time to read your guide. It provides no answers for your own questions, save one. Working as a team, and not going solo, is a good piece of advice, but even as a veteran it can be difficult to stay with the group. You cannot really judge distance, without looking at the minimap, to your team members. Maybe a solution to that would be to allow a distance meter, like on enemies, to allies, as well.

Caernos's Avatar


Caernos
06.12.2015 , 12:05 PM | #22
Iiezl, I don't have an answer for why Bolster is ever implemented in a ground game. Hell, I don't even understand the purpose of separate PvP gear or stats, I would much rather see players just have to use one set of gear and just deal with that.

I am however firmly in the belief that a bolster system will not work in GSF because a bolster will not actually teach them anything about the combat. Unlike the ground game, where when you tab to your target and all of your attacks home in on them, GSF is incredibly dependent on how well you can keep your crosshairs on the lead indicator, and how well you can keep that enemy lead indicator focused in the center of your screen so that you have the most accuracy. Missiles are dependent upon keeping a target in small faintly visible circle inside another circle until you can get a lock and release (and even then your missiles might not hit if they use a missile break). Add in that people are trying to do the same things to you and so you are trying to dodge and avoid them as much as possible, and it becomes even more challenging.

A bolster would pad their stats, make them a little tougher, live longer etc. But it doesn't actually teach a new player the skills to fight or survive. It wont teach them about tracking penalties or missile breaks, it won't teach them about evasion or armor or the importance of crew skills. Without these skills their still going to die to the veterans and aces of GSF and not understand why or what happened.

In my opinion, the best thing Devs could do for new players is to expand and improve upon the existing Tutorial so that it covers more of the gameplay and information; to teach them the skills they need, not just how to fire their lasers with the left mouse button.
Cynfor Cinderheart and the Cinderheart Legacy: The Ebon Hawk
The FanFic Works of Caernos:
Red Invitation, Parents,
Beskar Bonds and Cinder Hearts

iiezl's Avatar


iiezl
06.12.2015 , 12:12 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Caernos View Post
Iiezl, I don't have an answer for why Bolster is ever implemented in a ground game. Hell, I don't even understand the purpose of separate PvP gear or stats, I would much rather see players just have to use one set of gear and just deal with that.

I am however firmly in the belief that a bolster system will not work in GSF because a bolster will not actually teach them anything about the combat. Unlike the ground game, where when you tab to your target and all of your attacks home in on them, GSF is incredibly dependent on how well you can keep your crosshairs on the lead indicator, and how well you can keep that enemy lead indicator focused in the center of your screen so that you have the most accuracy. Missiles are dependent upon keeping a target in small faintly visible circle inside another circle until you can get a lock and release (and even then your missiles might not hit if they use a missile break).

A bolster would pad their stats, make them a little tougher, live longer etc. But it doesn't actually teach a new player the skills to fight or survive. It wont teach them about tracking penalties or missile breaks, it won't teach them about evasion or armor or the importance of crew skills. Without these skills their still going to die to the veterans and aces of GSF and not understand why or what happened.

In my opinion, the best thing Devs could do for new players is to expand and improve upon the existing Tutorial so that it covers more of the gameplay and information; to teach them the skills they need, not just how to fire their lasers with the left mouse button.
Cynfor, I appreciate your comment and agree that the tutorial is lacking.

However, the point of the Bolster would be to allow the new players to live longer. They can't practice too well in the tutorial. A live game is the only real practice they will have. I'm not suggesting a permanent bolster, but a limited bolster that self-removes over A. time played B. kills made C. requisition gained. The idea would be so that they could live longer and practice more rather than die 7 times and ragequit--never to queue again.

Every single one of us has had the game in which we were on a team of eight 5-shippers versus eight 2-shippers. Not one of us has ever thought, "Oh my God. This is going to be a wipe fest. They're all Aces in disguise."

The GSF community is great, with small exceptions, because everyone is helpful and considerate. Let us acknowledge the possibility that it can include in-game, too.

iiezl's Avatar


iiezl
06.12.2015 , 12:20 PM | #24
As I can see, there are a lot of people who are under the impression that suggesting a Bolster system will improve skill and knowledge. That is not the case. That is not the point of this thread.

Look at it from a ground PvP point-of-view: How can anyone learn Huttball if the other team will not let them off of the ledge? If they cannot survive long enough to reach the Huttball, passing the ball is not the biggest issue.

Look at it from a PvE point-of-view: How can players in 172 gear possibly hope to kill Revan HM if they cannot get past the first boss? What do the mechanics of Revan matter if they're never seen?

It's time, fellas. It's time and survival that I'm suggesting. Time to allow the new, fresh players more opportunities to understand spacebar and locking missiles. More time = more knowledge and skill gained.

caederon's Avatar


caederon
06.12.2015 , 12:21 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by iiezl View Post
I regret my sarcasm.
Since you offered up a not-quite-an-apology for your tone in this thread, I will offer another comment:

If you transplanted a baby's brain into the body of LeBron James, that baby would not be any good at basketball because it would not know the rules, would not know how to be part of a team, and would not know how to shoot.

Learning the game (and teaching the game to those that will listen) will help new players more than any bolster system ever could.

Getting players to congregate on active servers is also a good way to help all levels of GSF'ers because it stands a better chance of pitting evenly matched teams against each other.

Despon

iiezl's Avatar


iiezl
06.12.2015 , 12:26 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by caederon View Post

If you transplanted a baby's brain into the body of LeBron James, that baby would not be any good at basketball because it would not know the rules, would not know how to be part of a team, and would not know how to shoot.

Learning the game (and teaching the game to those that will listen) will help new players more than any bolster system ever could.

Despon
Exactly. Thank you. You finally understand what I'm saying. The body of Lebron James would last longer playing basketball than the body of a 1-month old. Would he learn eventually? Yes. Will be ever be as good as Lebron James? That depends on his personal skill level. But, the fact remains that he would have more of an opportunity to play basketball with the opposing 7-foot giants than he would in a baby's body.

Also, learning the game requires time. Thank you again for understanding. More time equals more knowledge and skill. More time bought by the Bolster system.

It could even implement an "Anti-suicide measure" and that would also work for those who come during Conquest week. Two-fold.

Toraak's Avatar


Toraak
06.12.2015 , 12:45 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by iiezl View Post
So, Despon, I can ask a 5th time because I'm patient.

Why do MMOs implement a Bolster system in PvP and in some PvE? Why do they do that? Can you, without bringing up your guide, answer me that question? If you cannot, or simply cannot read, I can attempt another way to try to communicate with you. I have Skype. I know sign language. I can even ask in German. However you want me to make it easier, I can comply. I'm done discussing this with you until you can answer me that question.
1st point: they may add it to make things easier, but lets all face the facts. Bolster in ground PvP doesn't do anything you still get slaughtered.

2nd point: Experience will always triumph over a bolstered player it is pointless in this case.

3rd point: Desponn is correct. What BW needs to do is add a better tutorial so new players can get used to the controls and get a better handle on how GSF works, so when you step into the matches you'll know the basics. With that being said experience will still win, but you won't be walking through the door knowing absolutely nothing about what your getting into.
Referral Link: www.swtor.com/r/Q4Tp3P

caederon's Avatar


caederon
06.12.2015 , 12:46 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by iiezl View Post
Exactly. Thank you. You finally understand what I'm saying.
I've understood your intent from the beginning. I dispute that your bolster idea is a solution to the problem or a way to make good on your intent.

In reference to your earlier post...
Quote: Originally Posted by iiezl
Despon, I have taken the time to read your guide. It provides no answers for your own questions, save one.
It actually does. My questions to you were as follows:

1. Would a bolster system prevent new pilots from flying slowly in a straight line at a target and unleashing their furious maxxed burst lasers from 10k out?

A: I do in fact mention that people should learn the effective range of their weapons. It is a common thing to see new pilots pull the trigger from the moment they spawn, blasting their rapid-fires into empty space. I should specifically cite the 'don't fly slowly in a straight line' part, though, and will do so after I finish this post.

2. Would a bolster system direct new pilots to correctly defend a satellite when they are instead fighting out in the middle of empty space? Would a bolster system teach a new pilot the value of sticking with their team instead of freelancing wantonly with no regard to the tactical situation in a match?

A: These both fall under 'don't act alone.' More advanced discussion of Domination map tactics was outside the scope of what I was hoping to convey in that guide. And it's not about being a specific distance from your team, it's about knowing what your team is doing and acting in a way that supports that. What I wrote was approaching that from the most rudimentary level, so as not to overly complicate things for the pure novice. Moving towards a blob of green dots on your minimap increases your chance of surviving and contributing.

3. Would it teach them to lock missiles?

A: Ok, you got me. I didn't teach people to do what they should have learned in the tutorial. I will add a heading that recommends playing the tutorial.

I stick by my stance that the two things you can do -right now- to help new players is teach them the game and get them into a server that has a large pool of GSF players. They will have a better chance of playing on even teams. Consider that if both teams have an equal number of veterans and inexperienced players, the veterans are going to have to contend with each other first and foremost, which gives novices some space to breathe and get into the action.

Despon

Caernos's Avatar


Caernos
06.12.2015 , 12:53 PM | #29
I'm still going to have to disagree with you on this.

I've tried the PvP ground game. I've talked to players about strategies and experience and other than getting a free set of recruit gear, I've never really own a single set of PvP gear on any of my characters. Even when I've been bolstered, I've still had more experience players completely wreck my character. The reason they wrecked me is that they had more experience and more skill, they knew how to use their abilities to exploit my cooldowns and take me out. The only times I ever felt like I was improving where when I asked another player for advice. Being able to take more damage didn't help me at all, it just meant the other team and players had to devote a little more time to burn me down than they normally did.

It's the same thing in GSF. A new player with his health and stats padded is still not going to know any of the skills needed to fight and survive. He may have more hull and shields, but he's not going to understand why his lasers didn't do any damage to that evasion scout, or why his missile hit that charge plating bomber and only did 8 damage. Being able to eat a little more damage than normal doesn't actually teach them anything about the game.

As for the baby in lebron james body analogy...well, having lebron's body means physically in theory he'd be able to keep up and compete with the rest of the team...but he doesn't know anything about the game or how its played. The only way he's going to learn and improve is by getting lessons from his coach or teammates. The game is far more than just physically being able to keep up with his teammates, physically being able to keep up with them doesn't mean anything if he doesn't know how to dribble, block, shoot or pass.



...weird analogy...
Cynfor Cinderheart and the Cinderheart Legacy: The Ebon Hawk
The FanFic Works of Caernos:
Red Invitation, Parents,
Beskar Bonds and Cinder Hearts

iiezl's Avatar


iiezl
06.12.2015 , 12:58 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Caernos View Post
I'm still going to have to disagree with you on this.

I've tried the PvP ground game. I've talked to players about strategies and experience and other than getting a free set of recruit gear, I've never really own a single set of PvP gear on any of my characters. Even when I've been bolstered, I've still had more experience players completely wreck my character. The reason they wrecked me is that they had more experience and more skill, they knew how to use their abilities to exploit my cooldowns and take me out. The only times I ever felt like I was improving where when I asked another player for advice. Being able to take more damage didn't help me at all, it just meant the other team and players had to devote a little more time to burn me down than they normally did.

It's the same thing in GSF. A new player with his health and stats padded is still not going to know any of the skills needed to fight and survive. He may have more hull and shields, but he's not going to understand why his lasers didn't do any damage to that evasion scout, or why his missile hit that charge plating bomber and only did 8 damage. Being able to eat a little more damage than normal doesn't actually teach them anything about the game.

As for the baby in lebron james body analogy...well, having lebron's body means physically in theory he'd be able to keep up and compete with the rest of the team...but he doesn't know anything about the game or how its played. The only way he's going to learn and improve is by getting lessons from his coach or teammates. The game is far more than just physically being able to keep up with his teammates, physically being able to keep up with them doesn't mean anything if he doesn't know how to dribble, block, shoot or pass.



...weird analogy...
Cynfor. I appreciate your further comments. But, with relation to ground PvP, I'll offer a test for you. Go into Outlaw's Den with a friend. Assuming you're both level 60 and of the opposite faction. Your goal is to run from one end of Outlaw's Den to the other. Your friend's goal will be to kill you before you reach the other end.

The first attempt: You wear PvE gear and your friend wears PvP gear.
The second attempt: You wear PvP gear equal to your friend's PvP gear.
The goal: Which attempt allowed you further crossing?

Or, to put it in even comparison terms, take a stock Rycer and have your friend choose a mastered gunship. Your goal in any GSF match, opposing teams remember, is for you to fly towards your friend. How far will you get in a stock Rycer versus a mastered Sting?

Yes, you will get destroyed either way. Yes, Bolster will not improve skill for players. But, the idea is for it to allow them more time to play. More opportunities to lock missiles, to guard satellites, without dying at 14800 meters from a Gunship.

As for Lebron James' analogy, imagine the "baby's brain" in the body of a baby. What is the result after trying to shoot through the hoop? Now, imagine the "baby's brain" in the body of Lebron James. What is the result after trying to shoot through the hoop? The point of that analogy was to show that 7-foot figure will have a much better opportunity to score rather than the baby's weak arms unable to even move the ball.