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New player solution


iiezl's Avatar


iiezl
06.12.2015 , 09:48 AM | #1
There are a lot of new players who complain about the difficulty of their first many games. They are unskilled and have stock ships. Then, there are the elitists who state that "Skill > Gear." This is a one-sided, blind argument based on a false assumption. The issue is that there will rarely be a time in which the opposing team does not have an Ace. (For those players arguing as such, put yourself in a ground PvP and PvE situation--fresh 60s with no PvP gear versus a 60 in full 174 augmented gear or a level 60 with 172 gear going into ToS HM.)

Take two of the same player **insert your idea of a best player here** and put them in separate ships--one a fully upgraded Sting and the other a stock Blackbolt. Can anyone honestly tell me that, with the same skills, he would even have a chance to win with the Blackbolt? If you believe that, you're delusional and evading a key point--skill will be found on both sides.

GSF could have a Bolstering system. For the first 6 hours of play or so, they could have increased health, armor, evasion, and damage. After that 6 hours is up, they will earn an achievement (or something) and the buff will be removed. To help fight against those Aces who would abuse this feature by starting new accounts or characters, the buff could self-remove (per game) after so many kills in-game (say, 5 or 6). The purpose of this Bolster would be to allow newer players to actually have the TIME to survive longer than being spawn-farmed.

This is a solution that I feel will allow players to stay involved in GSF rather than play once and never hit that queue again.

caederon's Avatar


caederon
06.12.2015 , 10:17 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by iiezl View Post
There are a lot of new players who complain about the difficulty of their first many games. They are unskilled and have stock ships. Then, there are the elitists who state that "Skill > Gear." This is a one-sided, blind argument based on a false assumption.
Great to have you here in the thread, oh Arbiter Of Truth and Judge Of Pilots.

Would a bolster system prevent new pilots from flying slowly in a straight line at a target and unleashing their furious maxxed burst lasers from 10k out? Would a bolster system direct new pilots to correctly defend a satellite when they are instead fighting out in the middle of empty space? Would a bolster system teach a new pilot the value of sticking with their team instead of freelancing wantonly with no regard to the tactical situation in a match? Would it teach them to lock missiles?

There have been many Stock Night events where veterans fly stock ships and non-veterans or those who don't know about the event fly their usual hangar. In a surprise to nobody, the veterans still outperformed less skilled people who were flying more upgraded or mastered ships. I can and have gone into many matches in stock ships (while building alts on new servers) and contributed very positively to my team's effort. Other veteran pilots have had the same experience.

I just wrote a guide with ACTUAL advice. New players should read it, and develop their skills, not be propped up with gear they can't even use effectively.

The only real solution to a better new player experience is that we get enough people playing that new pilots are matched against their peers and not against 'whoever is queuing if you manage to scrape together at least 8 people'.

Despon

iiezl's Avatar


iiezl
06.12.2015 , 10:28 AM | #3
As I stated, which you did not read, the bolster system would allow new players to survive longer than a few seconds. They can't put your guide to use if they're getting picked off by those Aces who fly around the capital ships. They can't put your guide to use if they can't even make it to the satellite. And, by the time the 6 hours is up, they should have learned enough to know the basics, and possibly put your guide to use.

With all aspects of this game, you'll have players who have been here for years and still do not know how the turrets spawn, just as you have players who have no idea how to pass the Huttball.

Verain's Avatar


Verain
06.12.2015 , 10:50 AM | #4
Quote:
There are a lot of new players who complain about the difficulty of their first many games.
There's a lot of anyone who complain about anything on the net, but players new to pvp losing in pvp is good design.

Quote:
Then, there are the elitists who state that "Skill > Gear."
Skill isn't > gear, it's at least an order of magnitude more impactful. Skill >> Gear.

Quote:
This is a one-sided, blind argument based on a false assumption.
It's not one-sided, because the experienced players have all rolled a ton of stock ships across all servers, and have played both mastered ships, stock ships, and everything in between, a whole lot. Veterans of the game have seen every side of this situation, and we all know how good gear is, and how good skill is.

A one-sided argument is "I need bolster, because I lose." or "I need gear because I don't have it". That's one sided because that guy isn't playing ships of different req levels enough to know what he's saying. He literally only has one side of experience.


Quote:
The issue is that there will rarely be a time in which the opposing team does not have an Ace.
Let me first dispute that there is always at least two aces per match, or even all that often. That is false.
While I don't want to turn this into an ace debate, it's very clear that the term ace is reserved for pilots of high skill. With that obvious fact in mind:

Quote:
(For those players arguing as such, put yourself in a ground PvP and PvE situation--fresh 60s with no PvP gear versus a 60 in full 174 augmented gear or a level 60 with 172 gear going into ToS HM.)
You immediately make a terrible comparison. This isn't the ground game, it doesn't have a gear treadmill, and gear isn't the focus. The damage, health, and healing magnitude between the example you JUST CHOSE vastly DWARFS that offered by gear in GSF. It's a terrible comparison because it takes a small number greater than one (the damage increase for having a properly reqqed ship) and compares it to a huge multiplier (the damage increase for having a bunch of stats in pve), and then says "and you can clearly see, neither of these numbers are one. Therefore, they are the same number."

Nonsense!

Also note- an ace has skill. A geared pvper or pveer likely has skill, but it is not guaranteed. An enemy with a mastered ship has at least played for a while, but just as gear is no guarantee of underlying skill in the ground game, the same is certainly true in GSF. Moreso in GSF, because all req can be acquired solo, whereas much of the ground game gear sort of needs a team to put together, and teams do push out players that dramatically hold them back.

Quote:
Take two of the same player **insert your idea of a best player here** and put them in separate ships--one a fully upgraded Sting and the other a stock Blackbolt. Can anyone honestly tell me that, with the same skills, he would even have a chance to win with the Blackbolt?
Of course not. But this proves nothing. If your question is "do you need req on ships to play at the top level", yes of course you do. You are changing the goalposts every other sentence. You started talking about NEW PLAYERS. New players aren't good at GSF. They float about like confused hamburgers. We call them foodships for a reason. Gear is not their problem. The fact that you couldn't go against the top solo build flown by a top tier pilot in a stock ship doesn't say anything about the new player experience. You don't load into GSF for your first time, always against some amazing battlescout streamer, and then have a popup say: "Your goal for this game is to eliminate, in solo combat, this one enemy guy who has played 1000+ games more than you."

If the game did that, sure. Maybe we could talk about boosting baddies, or preventing that from happening. But that's not a game mode.

The real reason your idea is unworkable is that it would start players (or much worse and exploitable, characters) with a type of flight that doesn't exist anywhere else. They will learn nothing until the buff wears off, because they'll be learning to play with a buff that they won't have ever again. Additionally, the much more common situation is that a new player fights against a player with a few games, or several games, but not any kind of ace. Why does he get the drop on his peers this way? He should get destroyed utterly by the ace, but he should also lose a close 1v1 versus those of similar but slightly advanced skill.


It's not a good idea. Any bolster idea is pretty bad, and it's a damned shame that they couldn't do their numbers correctly on the ground game such that they ended up ever needing bolster in the first place- not only is balancing the numbers the big task (that they skip out on) in an RPG combat situation, but it also creates a false expectation in the playerbase. Bolster would be terrible for GSF.


Quote:
This is a solution that I feel will allow players to stay involved in GSF rather than play once and never hit that queue again.
Nah. It'll just have a bunch of characters complaining that their buff juice ran out, and they can't get any more. Or creating fresh accounts repeatedly to get the buff juice because they like having an advantage over their other foodship opponents, who are most of what they are fighting. Instead of your ship rapidly increasing in power (and remember, stock ships are only played for a few games- the first upgrades are huge and cost almost nothing), instead it would rapidly decrease.

It would be awful.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

caederon's Avatar


caederon
06.12.2015 , 10:51 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by iiezl View Post
As I stated, which you did not read, the bolster system would allow new players to survive longer than a few seconds. They can't put your guide to use if they're getting picked off by those Aces who fly around the capital ships. They can't put your guide to use if they can't even make it to the satellite. And, by the time the 6 hours is up, they should have learned enough to know the basics, and possibly put your guide to use.
I did read your post, and disagree that it is a solution that would help.

If a pilot has no idea what they are doing, it takes very little time for someone who -does- know what they are doing to blow them up. This is proven over and over again. Having that extra second (which is about all it would buy) is not going to teach anything meaningful. Learning the game, doing some reading, and watching videos to explain how things are done will improve people's survival rate beyond any temporary bolster period to give a crutch for their confidence to lean on will.

It's a moot point anyway, because Bioware is not going to implement any system like that which would have to interact with a number of game mechanics already in place. They have spared zero resources on GSF development for an entire year, and this whole Strike Buff thing is likely to be as uncomplicated as they can possibly make it unless they dramatically alter course from the one they have been on.

Focus your efforts on achievable, immediate help. New pilots need to learn the game and maintain a thick enough skin to get through that initial phase of having no clue whats going on.

Despon

Verain's Avatar


Verain
06.12.2015 , 10:54 AM | #6
I will also reiterate that if GSF had cross server (and ground pvp could benefit a lot as well), it could make much better matches. That's the correct answer.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

caederon's Avatar


caederon
06.12.2015 , 10:59 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
I will also reiterate that if GSF had cross server (and ground pvp could benefit a lot as well), it could make much better matches. That's the correct answer.
That is 100% correct. The more players that we can get into the same matchmaking pool, the more likely it is that matches of teams with evenly equipped and experienced pilots will be made.

Lately, many pilots from GSF-dead small servers like POT5 have been migrating to Ebon Hawk and Harbinger. It has improved the overall level of play and made even matches more likely. From a purely GSF perspective (I can't speak about raiding or ground PvP) I wish they would just merge servers down to one or two East Coast and West Coast options.

Despon

iiezl's Avatar


iiezl
06.12.2015 , 11:04 AM | #8
I feel as though, before any further comments are made, anyone posting should answer this question: Why do MMOs implement a Bolster system in PvP? Why do some MMOs implement a Bolster system in PvE raiding?

That's the purpose of this content. It's not to promote your extended typing skills. It's not to promote your "guides." I understand, fully, that some people will just never be able to play. But, the reason I suggest the Bolster system is to allow those who would play, and have potential for skill, to be able to hop in a match on farm night and survive longer than normal.

If the time needs to be reduced (2 hours?) then that's doable. If the damage reduction needs to be more, then that could be doable. The point is to allow new players (those who have no skill) to be able to ENJOY their first few GSF matches.

You guys are fighting to keep a system in place which clearly pushes new players out of the GSF community.

Danalon's Avatar


Danalon
06.12.2015 , 11:11 AM | #9
I'm not opposed to the idea but also I know it won't help. No bolster can compensate for the experience veteran pilots gained over time. Well maybe unrealistically high bolsters like 500% hp and 500% damage bonus can.

caederon's Avatar


caederon
06.12.2015 , 11:11 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by iiezl View Post
It's not to promote your "guides."
...
You guys are fighting to keep a system in place which clearly pushes new players out of the GSF community.
The point of me making a guide was to help people who are new to GSF understand the systems and forces they will have to contend with. I do not stand to gain anything from it, it's a thread on this forum, free for anyone with the sole goal of presenting people concrete advice that will help them contribute to their team and improve personal experience.

The system that is in place is the one we must deal with. We (the relatively small and monetarily insignificant GSF community) do not control what Bioware spends its resources on. We have to deal with what is here. And what is here is really pretty good, though flawed. Working within that framework is what will most help GSF.

Despon