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Looking for feedback on aggregated Strike suggestions, and big thread is too crowded

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Looking for feedback on aggregated Strike suggestions, and big thread is too crowded

Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
05.31.2015 , 10:55 PM | #1
I posted a lot in the Strike thread, and my own ideas went through quite a lot of iteration based on what others said. I thought--in that way--that the main thread was very useful and productive, and hopefully the devs can parse it well.

I think that I've reached a stable state on my own personal recommendations (which are largely aggregated from others' suggestions), and though I already posted them in the main thread, I was hoping to get feedback from the other aces on them. And honestly I'm not sure they will get noticed in the main thread anymore.

So here they are again:

1) Make Strike after burner activation/sustain cost equal to Scouts. They will still be slower and less maneuverable than Scouts, but at least they will have similar endurance.

2) Give Strikes a flat damage boost to both primaries and secondaries, to make ignoring a Strike a dangerous proposition, at any range. Strikes need to be able to accomplish SOMETHING under a satellite, so that is why the flat damage boost is still necessary, even in addition to the below suggested Range and Accuracy buffs. The damage boost need not be 100% like Damage Overcharge, but I think it needs to be at least +25% to move the needle on Strike presence and influence in a battle under a satellite.

3) Give Strikes a significant Range boost to both primary and secondary weapons. Range would help Strikes do more damage (even with melee weapons like Rapids, LLC, and Ions) from mid-range, where they are comfortable. It would also make their missiles easier to lock on with. I think the range boost needs to be anywhere from +10-30%.

4) Give Strikes a significant Accuracy boost to primary and secondary weapons. . Accuracy would help them deal better sustained damage against Evasive targets, and would make up for the fact that they don't have many inherent Accuracy buffs on their weapons, nor access to Targeting Telemetry. I'd say +5-15%. (Why secondary weapons, too? Because one of my other suggestions below is to give the Pike Rocket Pods, and they wouldn't be very effective without extra Accuracy.)

I think #2, #3, and #4 could all be packaged in a single, perpetual buff that all Strikes enjoy. Functionally, it could work like a TDM powerup, but with unlimited duration.

As the above boosts are all specific to the Strike chassis, they do not present any threat to the other three classes of ships, and all of these changes would help new pilots significantly (without them having to do anything specific to take advantage of them).

Now for specific variant/component changes:

5) Remove Charged Plating from the Star Guard and replace it with Feedback Shield. Charged Plating is a trap on a ship that can't stack damage reduction. Feedback Shield is a good, solid shield that would synergize great with Ion Cannons and Cluster Missiles, and give the Star Guard some extra protection/teeth against Scouts.

6) Give the Star Guard Burst Laser Cannons. Not every Strike should have them, but this Strike--the primary weapon specialist--should have them.

7) Give the Pike Retro Thrusters. They synergize extremely well with acquiring missile locks, and they would give the Pike another medium cool down missile break.

8) Give the Pike Interdiction Missile. Currently, a Condor using both Clusters and Interdiction Missile can do quite well, due to both missiles having wide arcs and short lock-on times. You basically spam Clusters to drain lock-breaks, then hit with Interdiction. As the missile specialist, the Pike should have access to this combo. Alternatively (or maybe in addition), you could give Pikes Rocket Pods. Keep in mind their effectiveness will be limited, compared to Rocket Pods on a Scout, without Targeting Telemetry.

9) Give the Clarion Concussion Missile. Concussion Missile is not the ace dog fighting super missile it was originally conceived to be. There is no danger giving it to the Clarion, and it would give the ship a bit more offensive capability against all kinds of targets.

10) Give the Clarion Heavy Laser Cannons. HLC's are the quintessential Strike weapon, and every Strike should have them. They would cement the Clarion as a great anti-minelayer ship, as well as giving it more capability to assault satellites that have turrets.

Some may think that #9 and #10 make the Clarion too much of a dogfighter, when it is supposed to be a support ship.

I disagree. The fact that Clarions lack Thrusters will always be a hit against their space superiority credentials--do they really need to be so offensively neutered as well?

Giving them HLC's and Concussion Missiles would open up the kinda of Clarion you could make. You could make an anti-Bomber Clarion, a healing/support Clarion, a jousting specialist, or a mid-range harasser. And on that last option, you could complement the HLC's by taking Combat Command, or you could complement your Concussion Missiles using Remote Slicing, or you could just stick with Repair Probes for extra survivability.

At this point, I think that is about the best set of changes I can recommend, and I feel that most of them are relatively simple to implement (and simple to revert if they don't work out). As I said before, while some of these I originally suggested myself (or have been floating around a long time), many came directly from others' replies in the big thread.

For my part, I really enjoyed the main thread over the course of the last week. It got a bit heated at times, but I think, on the whole, it was very healthy debate. Good ideas were recognized. Not-so-good ideas (including some of my own) were appropriately challenged. Some minds were even changed. Way to go everyone!
Shayd / Callem / RK-4X / "Trynt" - Leader of <Eclipse Squadron>, The Ebon Hawk
http://EclipseSquadron.enjin.com Imperial GSF-focused guild

"Serve the Emperor above all others."

Etrii's Avatar


Etrii
06.01.2015 , 02:43 AM | #2
Those ideas are going into the right direction only few things(more likely number tweeks)

1. Reducing the engine initial cost and sustain is a good thing. But it`s not enough. With lower base speed and terible regen, the would still be Ion GS fodder. Increses the powerpool to the lvl that it can "tank" one-two ion shots(from half a pool)

2. 50 % is way to much 10-15% would still be a significant boost, but not going over the top. Their dmg should be on pair not superior to other clases:

Basicly Strikes have acces to realy good guns HLC/Quad/LLC so the damage is not a problem.

DAMAGE DELIVERY IS.

50% damage for rapids would be good, but it would overtune HLC and Quad(LLC propably as well)

As for missile`s, incressing their base speed to reduce reaction time and add/increase crticical chance would be a good start.

As for strikes, lets don`t forget about clasters, with 50% dmg boost they would hit for 1,2k and still being spamable

3. yes,yes,yes! Tune HLC to 8,5k, quads to 7k, LLC/Ion/rapids to 6k

With damage boost/engine boost/accuracy boost it would strongly increses their time in superior range to scouts and their ability to hit even evasive targets

4. 20% would be a bit to much 5-8% would be a better number to incres damage delivery.

All of those changes afects t1 strike which is good, the ability to hit something would strongly increse the quality of GSF first encouter.

5. Works for me.

6. Not needed change, even with engine effciency boost SG will have hard timestaying in really efective range. With accuracy/dmg bonus LLC would be a nice touch as a close quaters gun to synergise with ion. Also without systems slot they wouldent be as good a scout ones. Also it would be confusing for "fresher" pilots to have two main guns with diferent firing styles. Give T1 LLC in place of rapids instead!

7. Give pike retro thrusters AND powerdive

8. Give pike ID missile and thermite torps as for pods, i like the concept of pods being exclusive to t1 and t2 scouts, also even with improved boos T2 would still have a problem with keeping a terget in pod optimal range. Also bad turing on pike wouldent help with keeping 5-6 fast targets in range

9. Fully agreed

10. Propably a bit to much for a support tanky ship, but i`ll not defend that point strongly. HLC conc, HLC/Thermite are all fun concept but...i`d prefer it to be on pike where you could have HLC/Thermite/Concs.

tommmsunb's Avatar


tommmsunb
06.01.2015 , 05:01 AM | #3
I agree on all points but not exactly on giving pikes rocket pods, I actually think they should get double damage rocket pods if they get them due to the nature of how they need to be deadcenter-ish to hit and how not very maneuverable the pike is.
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Etrii's Avatar


Etrii
06.01.2015 , 06:58 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by tommmsunb View Post
I agree on all points but not exactly on giving pikes rocket pods, I actually think they should get double damage rocket pods if they get them due to the nature of how they need to be deadcenter-ish to hit and how not very maneuverable the pike is.
Agreed, otherwise pods would be a trap for a t2 strike

Itkovian's Avatar


Itkovian
06.01.2015 , 07:03 AM | #5
Personally I like them all, though probably the best way to introduce the global "class" changes would be gradually: slowly phasing in each change to avoid overshooting the mark and turning GSF into a strike-fest (though keeping in mind that it WILL turn into a Strike fest for a while the moment any improvements are made... but things should balance out as people return to their favourite class in due time).

After all, let's not forget that it IS possible to excel in a Strike, so any upgrade should be fairly gradual.

Beyond pure balance changes, I think the best thing that could happen to strikes would be a new game mode that makes Protorps significant, such an assault mode that requires destroying hardened objectives (thereby making a multi-role starfighter actually useful).

Either way, I certainly hope the devs follow through with this discussion. It would certainly help breathe new life into GSF.

Thank you.

SWCNT's Avatar


SWCNT
06.01.2015 , 07:38 AM | #6
It's a really nice list and I'm glad you extracted it from the above thread for those of us not wanting to read 20+ pages of replies. I agree with most of the changes, but I think some of the increases are a bit extreme. If all changes were implemented a strike would be one hell of a ship and a very dangerous hybrid class.

Propositions 2-4

Are all of these necessary? I don't think strike DPS is an issue, it's the accuracy of the strikes primaries and the high evasion on so many other ships that can make engagements difficult. If you pop WM@6000m with HLC you can do a nice bit of damage against any scout or GS. Now imagine if you have increases to range, damage and accuracy? With your low side buffs you'd get HLC hitting at 8280 meters (using the current Range Capacitor) with 111% accuracy dealing >1k DPS along with the perks of Armor Ignore and 15% shield piercing--OP. You made a highly mobile medium range GS with no charge time

I think tamer changes to accuracy and range will suffice. The changes need to be component specific too. For example, HLC's dmg +10%, RFL = +30% and give them 15% shield piercing. I think Quads and Ions are OK atm in terms of damage. Range could be +5% for HLC, and +40% for Ions--see below for HLC/Ion pairing.

I don't think secondary weapons stats should be touched. Those aren't the issues with the strikes, I agree with adding more missiles (e.g. Pike with interdiction missile) though. Also imagine if the stats were changed on nearly every missile only for a strike? Then every time a player swaps ships he has to remember all the buffs the weapons no longer have. This would increase the learning curve and cause all kinds of confusion.

On that note, I don't like implementing all that via a perpetual buff. It's going to be weird if a player switches ships (say T1 strike to T1 bomber) and suddenly HLC's feel like a different weapon. If the changes were modest, like the ones I suggested above, implementing them in the component tiers might make sense without breaking other classes. Granted, it's a concern that such changes could increase the effectiveness of other class builds--testing would have to be done to some extent.

6) Give the Star Guard Burst Laser Cannons.
I don't think this is a good idea. If a pilot can run HLC and BLC, then say goodbye to any other weapon combination. It also defangs the scouts in terms of uniqueness-- yes I know GS have BLC too. However, the overall changes you're proposing are making the Strike = Scout.
I rather see the current weapons better complement each other. For example, the range of Ions should be increased close to HLC, hence the +40% above. As is, their range difference (2300 meters) is annoying and limits the effectiveness of using Ions to lower shields and then hit with HLC.
RFL need to have their damage increased, close range accuracy increased (110->115% base), and tracking penalty dropped to 0.25 % per degree along with shield piercing (15%). That would make them better under satellites.
It would be nice if HLC/RFL was good for dom matches and HLC/Ions were the logical choice for TDM.

I didn't see any increases to evasion mentioned in OP. Maybe I missed it, but I'm thinking +8 base evasion.

I think the rest of the suggestions are good and thanks again for compiling the list.

Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
06.01.2015 , 08:32 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Etrii View Post
Those ideas are going into the right direction only few things(more likely number tweeks)

1. Reducing the engine initial cost and sustain is a good thing. But it`s not enough. With lower base speed and terible regen, the would still be Ion GS fodder. Increses the powerpool to the lvl that it can "tank" one-two ion shots(from half a pool)
Without nerfing Ion Railgun in any way, it's always going to be rough for Strikes (unless they are all given Power Dive or Distortion Field). That being said, hopefully with increased afterburner efficiency, greater damage, and greater range, Strikes will be able to function while keeping a bit of extra engine energy in reserve--enough so that even after an Ion Railgun hit, they would have enough gas left to engine-maneuver or boost to cover.

Quote: Originally Posted by Etrii View Post
2. 50 % is way to much 10-15% would still be a significant boost, but not going over the top. Their dmg should be on pair not superior to other clases:

Basicly Strikes have acces to realy good guns HLC/Quad/LLC so the damage is not a problem.

DAMAGE DELIVERY IS.

50% damage for rapids would be good, but it would overtune HLC and Quad(LLC propably as well)

As for missile`s, incressing their base speed to reduce reaction time and add/increase crticical chance would be a good start.

As for strikes, lets don`t forget about clasters, with 50% dmg boost they would hit for 1,2k and still being spamable
Quote: Originally Posted by SWCNT View Post
Propositions 2-4

Are all of these necessary? I don't think strike DPS is an issue, it's the accuracy of the strikes primaries and the high evasion on so many other ships that can make engagements difficult. If you pop WM@6000m with HLC you can do a nice bit of damage against any scout or GS. Now imagine if you have increases to range, damage and accuracy? With your low side buffs you'd get HLC hitting at 8280 meters (using the current Range Capacitor) with 111% accuracy dealing >1k DPS along with the perks of Armor Ignore and 15% shield piercing--OP. You made a highly mobile medium range GS with no charge time

I think tamer changes to accuracy and range will suffice. The changes need to be component specific too. For example, HLC's dmg +10%, RFL = +30% and give them 15% shield piercing. I think Quads and Ions are OK atm in terms of damage. Range could be +5% for HLC, and +40% for Ions--see below for HLC/Ion pairing.
I ardently believe that without a significant flat damage boost, Strikes will never be chosen in Domination.

Out of all ten changes, only the damage buff actually helps a Pike or Clarion peel defenders off a node.

Why? Because under a satellite, all combat is burst combat. You get maybe one or two shots to connect before your opponent breaks LOS, and those shots are often at high tracking penalty.

I know some will say that a Strike should fly above or below a node and then turn around to shoot back at foes vertically, but this simply doesn't work well in high stakes, competitive matches. A Strike off the satellite is naked to Gunships, and the target can always just flip sides to break LOS again. Meanwhile, the Strike isn't even on the satellite to threaten or block capture.

Unless all Strikes have BLC's, then the only other way to help them clear a node is by giving all of their weapons a damage buff.

If people are concerned that such a buff makes Strikes too powerful at range, then perhaps that damage buff could be greater at short range, and weaker as range increases. But honestly I just don't think that is necessary. Only food sits there to let you shoot it with HLC's from 6k out. Any competent target will pop DF, move closer, or simply turn on the Strike and kill it with superior burst damage.

My goal is that Strikes, just like Gunships and Scouts, must be noticed and dealt with BEFORE they start shooting at you from their optimal range. If you allow one to get into its favored position and to start shooting at you, then you need to suffer damage or potentially die. Just like how if you ignore a Scout or Gunship, you risk suffering surprise burst damage.

Right now, you don't need to take any preemptive action against a Strike. You only need react (and not even immediately) to avoid letting it kill you. If that remains true, then Scouts and Gunships will always remain superior offensive choices.

Quote: Originally Posted by Etrii View Post
6. Not needed change, even with engine effciency boost SG will have hard timestaying in really efective range. With accuracy/dmg bonus LLC would be a nice touch as a close quaters gun to synergise with ion. Also without systems slot they wouldent be as good a scout ones. Also it would be confusing for "fresher" pilots to have two main guns with diferent firing styles. Give T1 LLC in place of rapids instead!
Quote: Originally Posted by SWCNT View Post

6) Give the Star Guard Burst Laser Cannons.
I don't think this is a good idea. If a pilot can run HLC and BLC, then say goodbye to any other weapon combination. It also defangs the scouts in terms of uniqueness-- yes I know GS have BLC too. However, the overall changes you're proposing are making the Strike = Scout.
Since a Star Guard would presumably have BLC and one long range weapon (Heavies or Quads), it doesn't need to chase its prey like a BLC Scout does.

But having BLC protects it from that same Scout, especially if combined with Feedback Shield.

BLC would also help the Star Guard be productive under a satellite. Unlike the Pike or Clarion, it can't run a real Charged Plating build, so it needs to be able to kill Bombers quickly.

As for HLC/BLC becoming the "only" choice for a Star Guard, I disagree. A huge reason people take HLC's is for the Armor Piercing. If you can get those on BLC's, then that frees you up to consider other weapons besides HLC's. Sure, HLC's are still great and many would choose them. But Quads would also be nice to combine with BLC's. Even Ion Cannons, especially if their range is increased, could work well with BLC's, as they are a great spray-and-pray weapon.

And as for the changes turning the Star Guard into a Scout ... to some extent that needs to happen. The Star Guard is billed as the premiere space superiority dogfighter. There is simply no way for it to do that without BLC's. Not when so much of the game is determined under the fins of a satellite.
Shayd / Callem / RK-4X / "Trynt" - Leader of <Eclipse Squadron>, The Ebon Hawk
http://EclipseSquadron.enjin.com Imperial GSF-focused guild

"Serve the Emperor above all others."

SWCNT's Avatar


SWCNT
06.01.2015 , 11:29 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Nemarus View Post
I ardently believe that without a significant flat damage boost, Strikes will never be chosen in Domination.

Out of all ten changes, only the damage buff actually helps a Pike or Clarion peel defenders off a node.

Why? Because under a satellite, all combat is burst combat. You get maybe one or two shots to connect before your opponent breaks LOS, and those shots are often at high tracking penalty.

I know some will say that a Strike should fly above or below a node and then turn around to shoot back at foes vertically, but this simply doesn't work well in high stakes, competitive matches. A Strike off the satellite is naked to Gunships, and the target can always just flip sides to break LOS again. Meanwhile, the Strike isn't even on the satellite to threaten or block capture.

Unless all Strikes have BLC's, then the only other way to help them clear a node is by giving all of their weapons a damage buff.

If people are concerned that such a buff makes Strikes too powerful at range, then perhaps that damage buff could be greater at short range, and weaker as range increases. But honestly I just don't think that is necessary. Only food sits there to let you shoot it with HLC's from 6k out. Any competent target will pop DF, move closer, or simply turn on the Strike and kill it with superior burst damage.

My goal is that Strikes, just like Gunships and Scouts, must be noticed and dealt with BEFORE they start shooting at you from their optimal range. If you allow one to get into its favored position and to start shooting at you, then you need to suffer damage or potentially die. Just like how if you ignore a Scout or Gunship, you risk suffering surprise burst damage.

Right now, you don't need to take any preemptive action against a Strike. You only need react (and not even immediately) to avoid letting it kill you. If that remains true, then Scouts and Gunships will always remain superior offensive choices.


Since a Star Guard would presumably have BLC and one long range weapon (Heavies or Quads), it doesn't need to chase its prey like a BLC Scout does.

But having BLC protects it from that same Scout, especially if combined with Feedback Shield.

BLC would also help the Star Guard be productive under a satellite. Unlike the Pike or Clarion, it can't run a real Charged Plating build, so it needs to be able to kill Bombers quickly.

As for HLC/BLC becoming the "only" choice for a Star Guard, I disagree. A huge reason people take HLC's is for the Armor Piercing. If you can get those on BLC's, then that frees you up to consider other weapons besides HLC's. Sure, HLC's are still great and many would choose them. But Quads would also be nice to combine with BLC's. Even Ion Cannons, especially if their range is increased, could work well with BLC's, as they are a great spray-and-pray weapon.

And as for the changes turning the Star Guard into a Scout ... to some extent that needs to happen. The Star Guard is billed as the premiere space superiority dogfighter. There is simply no way for it to do that without BLC's. Not when so much of the game is determined under the fins of a satellite.
Assuming the middle ground with your changes (35% range boost, 50% damage boost, and 15% acc boost) HLC's will look like this:
Range = [776, 4657, 9115] (using range capacitor)
Accuracy = [126, 121, 116] (using pinpointing)
DPS vs Shields = [1182, 1059, 993]
DPS vs Hull = [ 1277, 1143, 1071]

Just imagine a target 9k away and you pop WM and have 136% accuracy and no charge time on a laser. You're right it would make a strike something another player could not ignore. Are the BLC's going to be more powerful than on a scout due to the umbrella buff to all strike weapons you're proposing? Or will the BLC's be exempt from the buff? On top of the above suggestions, there's the secondary weapon buffs, which would make the strike even more dangerous. Do you think strikes are really that underpowered? I think the suggestions are good, but your values are too high and they go pass the point of buffing. Also why would a T1 pilot ever pick quad and BLC? Quads don't have the range, armor ignore, accuracy, or shield piercing of HLC and they have higher power draw than HLC. I don't see those two weapons being favored by many even if quads have slightly higher DPS. BLC and Ions maybe, it would definitely be cool to try.

I don't think you can just "buff the strikes" and only change these values for strikes. People already complain about the learning curve and this will make it worse. Smaller changes to the weapon component tiers makes the material easier, doesn't risk tipping the scale too far, and doesn't involve having a messy obfuscated "buff" do deal with strikes.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
06.01.2015 , 12:06 PM | #9
Nem what are your thoughts to this collection


http://www.swtor.com/community/showp...&postcount=283 (obviously the link is to the first 19)

Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
06.01.2015 , 12:21 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
Nem what are your thoughts to this collection


http://www.swtor.com/community/showp...&postcount=283 (obviously the link is to the first 19)
I like it all, but I think it's too ambitious, and goes beyond just fixing Strikes. I don't want to give the devs such a huge list that they become frightened and flee into the woods.

Also needs more colors.
Shayd / Callem / RK-4X / "Trynt" - Leader of <Eclipse Squadron>, The Ebon Hawk
http://EclipseSquadron.enjin.com Imperial GSF-focused guild

"Serve the Emperor above all others."