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New player solution


Ryuku-sama's Avatar


Ryuku-sama
06.12.2015 , 08:57 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by iiezl View Post
Still the same, irrelevant points being brought up. Unreal.

There is simply no point in further discussion on this thread. You guys are discussing what you want to discuss.
Amusing. I gave you an answer to your question. You still haven't answreed.

You, and a few others, should stop thinking about components as gear. They are skills, abilities and talents... Those same things one gains through leveling in the ground game. Those same things bolster can't and will never balance between low level and high level player.

EDIT : Oh and before you say something about bracket. A lvl 20 can barely put out 2000 DPS once bolstered. THe standard at 60 is 4500 for a burst spec... And over 5000 for sustained. That's a 125-150% increase. And I don't even talk about defensives and kiting measures.
In GSF, the difference between low req and max req ship is under 50% in total effectiveness. Often, way less. After about 20k in your ship, which is about 8 levels in the ground game if we say 150k (mastered) is 60. You're at less than 10% under the mastered ships in total effectiveness. You got your engine to T2, a decent shield and a few others upgrades, such as removing these god-aweful RFL...
"If it wasn't broken, we shall break it. If it is balanced, we shall beat it until slow and painful death follows. If it is overpowered, it is working as intended." - Bioware 2015

Mintas's Avatar


Mintas
06.13.2015 , 12:51 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by iiezl View Post
There are a lot of new players who complain about the difficulty of their first many games. They are unskilled and have stock ships. Then, there are the elitists who state that "Skill > Gear." This is a one-sided, blind argument based on a false assumption. The issue is that there will rarely be a time in which the opposing team does not have an Ace. (For those players arguing as such, put yourself in a ground PvP and PvE situation--fresh 60s with no PvP gear versus a 60 in full 174 augmented gear or a level 60 with 172 gear going into ToS HM.)

Take two of the same player **insert your idea of a best player here** and put them in separate ships--one a fully upgraded Sting and the other a stock Blackbolt. Can anyone honestly tell me that, with the same skills, he would even have a chance to win with the Blackbolt? If you believe that, you're delusional and evading a key point--skill will be found on both sides.

GSF could have a Bolstering system. For the first 6 hours of play or so, they could have increased health, armor, evasion, and damage. After that 6 hours is up, they will earn an achievement (or something) and the buff will be removed. To help fight against those Aces who would abuse this feature by starting new accounts or characters, the buff could self-remove (per game) after so many kills in-game (say, 5 or 6). The purpose of this Bolster would be to allow newer players to actually have the TIME to survive longer than being spawn-farmed.

This is a solution that I feel will allow players to stay involved in GSF rather than play once and never hit that queue again.
Bolster will do zero to help in GSF. A fully mastered ship and a base ship mean next to nothing if the player does not know strategy, situational awareness, or what their skills do. Any decent player would wipe the floor with a new in a maxed ship even if they are in a base ship. As previously stated if you can't stay on a sat, use an angle on a gunship, and or know how to dislodge a bomber, etc. no amount of ship will compensate for it.

While a better tutorial would help. Bio ware is the main culprit in why there is such a discrepancy in skill sets. Over a year ignoring this aspect of the game just made good players better and new players get farmed.

FYI if you are going to suggest something and be able to take into account other peoples opinions, then you mind as well keep them to yourself. BTW the only a person would think bolster would help does not play GSF to know what they are talking about.
"Better to fight for something than live for nothing."
George S. Patton

Linuxizer's Avatar


Linuxizer
06.13.2015 , 08:15 PM | #43
How much of a bolster are you talking about? Is it only on health, armor, evasion and damage, or is it on every stat?

(a) Reduce the difference. There is little benefit. Take the hull damage of the Heavy Laser Cannon for example. It is only 13% higher on a mastered ship than on a stock ship. A bolster of 6.5% would accomplish very little.

(b) Eliminate the difference. In this case it is easier to just give all characters every ship, every component and every upgrade unlocked. I would be fine with that... but we may see people keep creating new characters with stupid names.

(c) Overcompensate. It is a bad idea.
The Lightsaber-jerk

Referral link: http://www.swtor.com/r/jBHrWL

Archonitek's Avatar


Archonitek
06.13.2015 , 10:09 PM | #44
I wouldn't mind giving new players a bolster and have it tied to their legacy. Even if it's just a shield/hull boost.

True, bolster won't directly make them better pilots, rapids will still be fired at 7k out, ruler straight lines will still be the only flight path allowed and the ship repelling forcefield around sats will be just as strong. However giving them that extra little bit of survivability to allow them to either feel like their participating or for them to realise they're under attack before getting vaped is much better than having them yell 'WHAT?!' when they go from 100% to dead without warning, throwing their hands up in disgust and leaving forever.

The first few matches for new players are what they use to judge how much fun they can potentially have in gsf. Once they reach the consensus 'yes, this is something I can have fun with' THEN they start going through guides, youtube videos, streams and whatnot to improve their game. The purpose of the bolster is to give them that time to realise the game's potential and maybe get in a bit of actual practice before getting slugged at 15k.

Edit: I also think it's a bit weak of the op to go off in a huff when nobody agreed with him. He needed to expand on his idea on what benefits having a bolster will give to new pilots rather than just throwing it out there, get in some weird basketball analogy debate which isn't even terribly relevant and then leave.
Eclipse Squadron - Cedwic/Eclipse-seven - Pilot - The Ebon Hawk
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Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
06.14.2015 , 12:48 AM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by iiezl View Post
So, someone with level 60 Bolster in Huttball can still have no clue how to pick up or pass the ball. That is irrelevant. I suppose I can ask you the same question that I've been repeatedly asking throughout this argument--Why do MMOs implement a Bolster system for PvP and some PvE?
Simple, because their designers designed with design goals that conflict so badly that a Band-Aid fix was needed to prevent part of the play experience from becoming unworkable for a significant portion of their paying customers.

Usually this is a matter of time investment and revenue.

"Hardcore," players invest a lot of time in game, and typically are willing to pay full price, in advance, for long subscription periods. They also tend to do a lot in the way of word of mouth advertising in, "the gaming community." The problem is they tend to run through content with low intrinsic replay value very quickly, so game designers create gear and prestige reward treadmills to keep these players playing.

"Casual," players on the other hand, have limited playtime, are less loyal customers when it comes to paying for the content, but occur in vastly larger numbers. They also want to play without a huge competitive disadvantage and to feel like they get to see most content in some form, but they don't have time to spend on the gear treadmill in a way that gets anywhere close to the rewards a more, "hardcore," gamer gets.

If the gear treadmill rewards gear that has a large impact on in game performance then you're making an important part of your customer base unhappy, but if there isn't a gear treadmill you risk another important part of your customer base getting bored and leaving. So they use bolster mechanics as a compromise method of keeping both groups merely slightly disgruntled.

Of course, they could try making game content with at least as much replay value as say, Tetris, but that's surprisingly difficult to do compared to gear treadmills.

GSF doesn't merit a bolster because:
The population is too small.
For all practical intents GSF doesn't have a gear treadmill.
What gear there is in GSF has a fairly small effect on gameplay.

A tutorial that's not embarrassingly useless might be nice, but the official line from Bioware is that they're pretty sure that failing miserably and getting farmed hard because a new player has no clue what's going on doesn't significantly affect participation rates. Unless you can change their minds on that, both bolster and a half-assed tutorial are non-starters (the current tutorial is about one-sixteenth-assed).
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

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Verain's Avatar


Verain
06.17.2015 , 01:54 AM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by iiezl View Post
That's exactly my point. It will help. Again, why do MMOs implement Bolster systems in PvP?
Because they failed at balancing their tiers, or they don't have enough players to matchmake properly.

That's the only reason.

The better question is, what do MMOs that don't implement bolster do correctly?


WoW is interesting because last expansion, a patch suddenly limited the item level of pve items in pvp- a "reverse bolster". This is because their pve model involved four tiers per patch set, creating a pretty big gulf, and handing out massive burst to pve players. I'm pretty sure this system is still in effect in the exact same way.

Their solution was to take this unbalanced pve stuff out of instanced pvp completely- but this definitely had some complaints, the best phrased ones which were essentially "why can't you offer us balanced gear, instead of just giving up?"


Bolster can have some place in MMOs. SWTOR has massive gear and power differences between levels in the ground game, and between item levels at the top tier of the ground game, and this helps minimize that.


GSF doesn't suffer from these flaws. A stock ship is much closer to a mastered ship than anything in the ground game is to anything else. GSF is designed to have a certain amount of delta between mastered and base components, and that difference being small is why it will never need bolster.

But it will never HAVE bolster for another reason- the entire reason gear and power is different across levels in the ground game (and in WoW) is to offer a real and substantial boost in power for leveling.

GSF doesn't have this kind of thing, or anything like it. If a stock ship had 200 health and a mastered ship had 20000, then you obviously that would have been because the stock ships would be fighting weak NPC ships most of the time, and the mastered ships would be fighting strong NPC ships most of the time. Then bolster might make sense.



If the devs come in and decide that the gear gap between fresh ships and reqqed ships is too much, they'll do some mix of these:

1)- Increase req gains (they did this already)
2)- Shrink req required for upgrades.
3)- Start ships with some baseline req.

They certainly won't add "bolster". Bolster doesn't even make sense from a GSF perspective- there's no "gear" at all, just talent points.




Bolster is a non-starter in GSF. If you want req, go get req. It's not that hard.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Verain's Avatar


Verain
06.17.2015 , 01:59 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by iiezl View Post
the point of the Bolster would be to allow the new players to live longer.
They assuredly don't deserve to, is mostly the point.

The game offers almost instant respawns. Often it lets you respawn directly into action, or close by. Artificially buffing noob ships, such that the noobs feel weaker as soon as they learn to fly, would both be exploited terribly by the free to play system, and create a silly situation where derps run around with virtual star men for their first couple games.

Adding to Ardaneb's "it will create havok for everyone else":
Bad players should lose to ok players. That needs to happen, or the ok players don't get any reward for not being bad. Ok players need to lose to good players. That needs to happen, or the good players don't get any reward for not being only ok. Etc.


Quote:
They can't practice too well in the tutorial.
We'd all like a better tutorial, and have been asking for this since long before this derp of a thread started.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Verain's Avatar


Verain
06.17.2015 , 02:01 AM | #48
Quote:
Even when I've been bolstered, I've still had more experience players completely wreck my character.
The other piece here is that bolster in ground pvp takes the stat differences from massive to smallish. The GSF stat differences are already smallish. The pvp game has always been tuned such that you get upgraded power by getting better gear. The delta that the devs aim at, they get for free in GSF.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Verain's Avatar


Verain
06.17.2015 , 02:04 AM | #49
Quote:
Why do MMOs implement a Bolster system in PvP and in some PvE?
Because they have a STATISTICALLY HUGE DIFFERENCE. They have that difference because they are based in an EQ style gear progression matrix, because that is how PvE works. The matrix becomes a full treadmill in WoW and the WoWlikes, with giant upgrades happening over time. Your gear "decays". You need new gear. The devs want the gear difference between a new player and an veteran to be substantial- rest assured, no bolster in the ground game erases that gap, because rewarding with gear is the biggest reward in an MMO.

But they do shrink that gap to something where pvp can happen.


GSF never has that difference. That giant gap doesn't exist. That tenfold or hundredfold difference between a level 1 and a max level, that extremely huge difference between a fresh max level and a fully geared max level- nothing like that exists anywhere in GSF.


That's why they do it. Because their primary focus is in pve upgrades, and they need to crush the item level down to something where pvp can occur. Older games didn't always need bolster, and few newer ones get away without it as well. How? By not making the gear gap very large.

Which is what GSF does.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Verain's Avatar


Verain
06.17.2015 , 02:09 AM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by iiezl View Post
Still the same, irrelevant points being brought up. Unreal.

There is simply no point in further discussion on this thread. You guys are discussing what you want to discuss.
Yes. Everyone here is saying the same things, because we understand what is going on in GSF. Your idea would not help anything, and we have told you why. When you didn't understand, everyone tried explaining it in different ways.

So yes, there's no point in you pushing a wrongheaded idea any further. With that, I can finally agree with something you have said.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."