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Progression Double-Monetized in 6.0?


FlatTax

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EDIT: Given the growth of the thread, I'm inserting a summary of the discussion (as of August 11th 2019) up front, for people not interested in reading over a hundred posts. My orginial post remains at the bottom.

 

What’s the problem?

New end-game gear (Amps) will provide peak performance. The devs have called it 'optional' and 'not necessary,' while simultaneously downplaying the importance of a gearing system they're aggressively re-monetizing (Command/Renown drops).

 

In 6.0 XP and CXP are earned concurrently, but boosted separately. We’ll need two simultaneous, compounding, monetized consumables to un-nerf progression and gearing, on top of the $155.88 we pay year over year, for a 'Premium' experience.

 

Renown drops will probably be the primary feeder for rare Amps and Tacticals. To head off criticism, the corporate talking points are pretty clear: highly-monetized end-game gear is framed as optional, not-necessary stuff from a secondary system.

 

Amps and Tacticals will be available through other gameplay, but double-boosted Renown drops need only be efficient to create a pay-to-win problem.

 

What’re the details?

CXP will be calculated as a percentage of XP. At max level, you’ll no longer get XP, but it’s still the basis of you CXP calculation, so the monetized consumable never becomes obsolete.

 

The resulting value can then be compounded by a CXP consumable, to fully un-nerf your gearing.

 

There’s no reason to maintain these as separate totals, except to monetize them individually.

 

How much does paying to win cost? What do you get?

I’m glad you asked! I’ll happily provide detailed figures upon request.

 

P2W/Hour Case 1 (Low-Efficiency Purchases): $1.91/hour

P2W/Hour Case 2 (High-Efficiency Purchases): $0.68/hour

 

This means less than seven hours of paying to win could double the monthly cost of SWTOR for a subscriber, while delivering 2.5X Renown gear drops.

 

You just want free stuff!

Progression gates are arbitrary numbers. Expecting optimal tuning to come with our 'Premium' purchase isn't asking for a free expense. It's merely advocating for an unsabotaged experience, that doesn't rent us a solution to an artificially imposed problem.

 

But they give us a ton of XP boosts!

Yes, the core story drops a finite number of XP boosts. This kept subscribers from feeling abused during the ‘F2P’ transition, which introduced monetized consumables.

 

Their usefulness had a sunset at max level, and they gave us enough to get there. Now, XP boosts are permanently required to un-nerf gearing, alongside CXP boosts. Those XP boosts are character-bound. If you have them, you’ll run out. By design.

 

You can’t direct-purchase stat-based gear! It’s not P2W!

Oh boy. Microtransactions feed stat-based gearing. Suggesting that obscurant game mechanics make it ok is no different than any other claim that money laundering legitimizes an illicit practice. It doesn't.

 

Also, crystals are stat-bearing direct purchases. They’ve long-since dipped a toe in that pool.

 

Then your subscription is P2W! Hypocrite!

No. Nothing is free, and I expect to pay for a quality game.

 

The demo ('F2P') version is crippled to incentivize subscriptions, and that's fine. What I have a problem with is monetizing in-game advantages on top of a monetized 'Premium' experience.

 

Cash shop items, including CXP boosts, can be acquired in-game, without spending a dime!

Secondary grinds for anything cash-purchasable aren't game design. They're burdens to incentivize financial transactions, for items that shouldn't be withheld from a subscriber to begin with. And no, the subscriber CC ration isn't meaningful.

 

Why does this matter?

This is about ethics. Purchasing in-game advantages is the very essence of pay-to-win.

 

Watch the documentary Leaving Neverland; it's an amazing parable about excusing the crossing of bright lines. Microtransactions that feed gearing are one such line. We’re being groomed, and when the lights go out, we'll be getting FIFA'd.

 

Whether it's a disturbed celebrity, or EA/BioWare, the moral obligation is for powerful people not to solicit inappropriate things from others.

 

What FIFA's doing is way different!

It's a matter of degree, not principle. SWTOR has both of FIFA's worst ethics problems:

 

1. Gambling Products

2. Pay-to-Win Consumables

 

What's new?

The Entertainment Software Association has announced their members (EA/BioWare) will disclose odds on their gambling products. This may require its own thread, but here're a few thoughts:

 

The transparency provided to direct-purchase gambling products (say, Hypercrates) is pretty straight forward.

 

What's not been clearly addressed are money laundered gambling products (for instance, a randomized drop fed by a purchased boost, like Renown Crates), or how they'll handle variable drop rates.

 

If they're ethical, they'll list the lowest possible probability for each item, and include tables for money laundered purchases, too

 

ORIGINAL POST:

Now that XP and CXP are earned concurrently, but boosted separately, we're looking at needing two consumables at a time for un-nerfed progression, on top of the $155.88 we pay year over year, for a 'premium' experience.

 

I'm guessing Renown level-drops will feed Amps and Augments (either directly, or with rare components), much as GC levels feed Aug components now, and create a far worse pay-to-win incentive for end-game gear than we have now. I don't even want to get started on the cynicism of the claim Amps are 'optional,' and 'not necessary.'

 

Have the Devs commented on monetized progression at all?

Edited by FlatTax
Providing an up-front summary of the thread's progression.
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XP and CXP are not earned concurrently. That is, you do not earn Command Experience while earning ordinary Experience.

 

CXP and *CQP* are earned concurrently for level 70s. XP and CQP are earned concurrently for level 1-69s, although it doesn't seem to work for XP earned from killing foes.

 

(CQP == ConQuest Points)

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The last Dev-stream was pretty clear; a percentage of XP will be earned concurrently as CXP (edit: in 6.0), and they confirmed the continued use of boosts.

 

Isn't CXP being scrapped in 6.0? Changed to Renown XP instead?

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Isn't CXP being scrapped in 6.0? Changed to Renown XP instead?

 

They're using both terms, for now. The dev's PowerPoint used CXP in their last stream. Re: concurrent XP/CXP, it's at about the 56min mark.

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Now that XP and CXP are earned concurrently, but boosted separately, we're looking at needing two consumables at a time for un-nerfed progression, on top of the $155.88 we pay year over year, for a 'premium' experience.

 

I'm guessing Renown level-drops will feed Amps and Augments (either directly, or with rare components), much as GC levels feed Aug components now, and create a far worse pay-to-win incentive for end-game gear than we have now. I don't even want to get started on the cynicism of the claim Amps are 'optional,' and 'not necessary.'

 

Have the Devs commented on monetized progression at all?

 

I've got a stack of about 30 Major XP boosts that I got from completing story missions, that cost me 0.00. The monetization scheme sucks...

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XP, all the way to 75... how many days is that gonna take, even for a casual, I expect no more than 5 days.

 

I doubt I'll even use a xp boost. I will log my 7 alts, just to get their rested started, while I level out my main.

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XP, all the way to 75... how many days is that gonna take, even for a casual, I expect no more than 5 days.

 

I doubt I'll even use a xp boost. I will log my 7 alts, just to get their rested started, while I level out my main.

 

If I understand correctly, XP is still calculated at max level, and a percentage of that will convert to CXP. The compounding effect of XP and CXP boosts will be a marked advantage if Renown drops feed end-game gearing.

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If I understand correctly, XP is still calculated at max level, and a percentage of that will convert to CXP. The compounding effect of XP and CXP boosts will be a marked advantage if Renown drops feed end-game gearing.

 

So? Going forward from here, it's just a number. Since the new crates are going to award relevant to your current gear score, instead of your rank, and you can't get that Renown until cap anyway. At that point, the end rewards will become Renown, and you'll still earn Conquest according to what the XP would have been. I can verify this last, since as an experiment, I used a Major XP boost on a capped toon, and went Conquest farming. The Conquest rewards were higher with the XP boost than w/out. The current Command XP boosts can be purchased on the Fleet, so I'd imagine that the new boosts will simply replace the old ones.

 

So, as monetization schemes go, this one is rather pathetic. Everything's tied to XP, and XP boosts are literally free. Other than epeen stroking, the "rank" in Renown is meaningless, so how fast, or slowly, one acquires it is irrelevant to gearing.

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Unlimited renown ranks allows them to then reward top renown levels players with rewards such as seasonal titles prizes etc. If they does this like diablo 3 paragon levels, technically, which also means boosts to reknown will sell very well on cartel market.
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So? Going forward from here, it's just a number. Since the new crates are going to award relevant to your current gear score, instead of your rank, and you can't get that Renown until cap anyway. At that point, the end rewards will become Renown, and you'll still earn Conquest according to what the XP would have been. I can verify this last, since as an experiment, I used a Major XP boost on a capped toon, and went Conquest farming. The Conquest rewards were higher with the XP boost than w/out. The current Command XP boosts can be purchased on the Fleet, so I'd imagine that the new boosts will simply replace the old ones.

 

So, as monetization schemes go, this one is rather pathetic. Everything's tied to XP, and XP boosts are literally free. Other than epeen stroking, the "rank" in Renown is meaningless, so how fast, or slowly, one acquires it is irrelevant to gearing.

 

Free XP boosts are limited, thus their real-money sale. Our accumulation of them is only because haven't needed them post-70 until now.

 

The big 'So?' is Renown drops will likely feed end-game gearing with Amps, which the devs have cynically called 'optional' and 'not necessary.' Needing two simultaneous, compounding, monetized consumables to un-nerf your progression even after a subscription is a problem. A moral problem, I'd argue.

 

The rate at which we acquire Renown drops is almost certainly going to be a big, highly monetized, deal.

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Free XP boosts are limited, thus their real-money sale. Our accumulation of them is only because haven't needed them post-70 until now.

 

The big 'So?' is Renown drops will likely feed end-game gearing with Amps, which the devs have cynically called 'optional' and 'not necessary.' Needing two simultaneous, compounding, monetized consumables to un-nerf your progression even after a subscription is a problem. A moral problem, I'd argue.

 

The rate at which we acquire Renown drops is almost certainly going to be a big, highly monetized, deal.

 

I have 14 of them on one 70 character. How many do you suppose it's going to take to get to 75? 1?

 

I get it, I do: "But EA, but MDs, they're trying to milk us"... How many level 65 tokens did you buy? How many level 70 tokens did you buy? I bought 0 of either. I had one of each from sub rewards on appropriate content, I think, still have one that I can use, and I haven't used it... This despite rolling up a couple of new toons since I've been back this time around. Sorry, your arguments are invalid: Boosts to max level already exist, and the game isn't broken, and EA isn't raking in the loot on purchases of them, if the thread lamenting the nerf of Bug Hunt is to be believed, and haven't been, they've been around for a long time. The crates from this system are supplementary, the gear is going to drop all over the place, that's a pretty solid strike on monetization, unless you're going to start claiming they're going to start charging you to loot mobs?

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Or, you could just enjoy the game and play your way since Renown crates are SUPPLEMENTARY not the primary way of gearing.

 

Oh man. It's only supplementary if you buy the assertion that end-game gear is 'optional,' and 'not necessary.' That was one of the most cynical moves I've seen any developer make to head off criticism of end-game monetization.

 

We shouldn't let it go unchallenged. It's a moral problem. Both as game design, and community engagement.

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I have 14 of them on one 70 character. How many do you suppose it's going to take to get to 75? 1?

 

We'll need XP boosts forever, even at max level, because the boosted XP becomes the basis of your CXP award at max level. This will compound with CXP boosts, bringing the monetization of loot drops to new heights (or lows, morally speaking).

 

Re: mobs, do you believe the environment will be competitive with boosted Renown drops? I humbly submit it won't be in the same universe. By design.

 

And I couldn't disagree more about the long-time existence of monetized boosts. They've always been a problem, and a slap in the face to paying subscribers.

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Ugh. From the dev's Reddit AMA summary:

 

"A renown boost will effect ALL renown gains. This means there's a world where an XP and Renown boost work together, if that's your thing!"

 

Double-monetized progression confirmed. :/ Also, the Amps-as-optional claim was walked back a bit, as they ARE considered for balancing Master Mode operations.

Edited by FlatTax
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We'll need XP boosts forever, even at max level, because the boosted XP becomes the basis of your CXP award at max level. This will compound with CXP boosts, bringing the monetization of loot drops to new heights (or lows, morally speaking).

 

Re: mobs, do you believe the environment will be competitive with boosted Renown drops? I humbly submit it won't be in the same universe. By design.

 

And I couldn't disagree more about the long-time existence of monetized boosts. They've always been a problem, and a slap in the face to paying subscribers.

 

No, we won't. Will some of us want them? Yes, they will, but we will not need them. I have the surplus I have now because during the entirety of the leveling process, from 1 to 70, I did not need them. Yes, it's tied to the mechanics, and yes, to your next post, there is a world where you could use both at the same time, but you will not "need" to.

 

Understand: While I'm not running a sub, I don't play, because I despise the way the monetization is thrown in your face. However, to complete the line of the little out of context snippet you provided: "if that's your thing". So for now, you're making a mountain out of a grain of sand. The boosters have never slapped me in the face, when did they slap you? Was it "Well, he can buy a way to play a capped toon w/out spending 3 days tops getting there"? You're so busy worrying about what someone else has that you don't see that you have it too? The one I have currently was free, to me.

 

Back to the reason I don't play while I'm not subbed: I can't take part in the end game, because w/out the sub, it's not available. So when I sub, any bonuses are just that, bonuses. That's why I resent discussing giving away bonuses for maintaining a sub, and why I don't see this as game breaking, or as a way to make EA richer. There will be those that buy them, boosts, XP boosts, etc. Then there are people like me that have ignored them for the entirety of their existence. If you are unable to do so, this is your issue, not an issue with how the game is provided to us. I already don't play when I am not subbed because I disagree with their model. So if I thought for one minute that this was any where near as intrusive as their F2P model, I'd speak up. I don't.

Edited by robertthebard
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Was it "Well, he can buy a way to play a capped toon w/out spending 3 days tops getting there"? You're so busy worrying about what someone else has that you don't see that you have it too?

 

No. It's the fact that optimal progression is withheld, in perpetuity, after paying $155.88, year over year, for a 'premium' experience.

 

These boosts aren't an inconspicuous leap to an easily achieved goal. The absence of them is a nerf on a subscribed player's gearing. Forever.

 

That's why these boosts are monetized.

Edited by FlatTax
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No. It's the fact that optimal progression is withheld, in perpetuity, after paying $155.88, year over year, for a 'premium' experience.

 

These boosts aren't an inconspicuous leap to an easily achieved goal. The absence of them is a nerf on a subscribed player's gearing. Forever.

 

That's why these boosts are monetized.

 

You have that backwards. Try playing as preferred, and see what you get from your command crates, if you even get them. If you do, it'll be a message that says "If you were a sub, you could use this". You see, we get to equip any piece of gear, for our class, that we drop, as subs. If you're not a sub, then you have to either spend some money on CC, or some credits on the GTN to get the equipment authorization. You also have to pay for extra skill bars, if you need them, and to access legacy and guild cargo bays. You better hope they aren't listed for more than 350K, currently, as that's the max amount of credits you can have on you.

 

So subs have it going on in this game. This is why I don't play if I'm not subbed, too many toons at cap that can't use anything they may get to waste my time with it. XP boosts have been in the CM since there was a CM, I've never purchased any of them. Wait, that's not exactly true, I did buy that Newcomer bundle once, because it had speeder authorization at level 10, instead of 25... We get a lot for our investment, and we have never had optimal progression withheld, in fact, being a sub is the easiest way imaginable to get optimal progression. No additional cash outlay required.

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Oh man. It's only supplementary if you buy the assertion that end-game gear is 'optional,' and 'not necessary.' That was one of the most cynical moves I've seen any developer make to head off criticism of end-game monetization.

 

We shouldn't let it go unchallenged. It's a moral problem. Both as game design, and community engagement.

 

So..... putting gear on every boss from FP's to OP's, and having specific loot tables on OPs bosses, PLUS the individual drop you get from each boss is the supplemental way to gear and renown crates is the primary?

 

End game gear IS optional and not NOT necessary to play the game if you feel renown as your primary gearing system. There is no content that can't be done in quest gear until you start getting out of Vet FP's and SM OPs. THEN, if you are doing HM FP's/OP's and higher, you are running with a team, and getting gear off the bosses you kill, not out of renown crates.

 

You obviously got something completely different out of the the stream and the AMA than I did.

 

You also DON't HAVE to use XP boosts and CXP boosts. YOU, yourself, feel that it is necessary in order to get more renown crates. I don't feel the need to spend money on XP boosts, and as long as Boosts are dropping from crates the way the are now, you will never have to buy one. I have 2 full tabs in my inventory full of CXP boosts.

 

Just because you have some delusional conspiracy theory about double monetized progression doesn't mean any of the rest of us are drinking that kool-aid.

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This is complete nonsense. You mustn't play the game much, otherwise you would know that such boosts are more plentiful than what you will ever need. Anyone who plays the game has a huge surplus of them. You can buy them with command tokens and credits on the fleet.

 

This for CXP boosts, cause the game already showers you with XP boosts during leveling. Faster than i can use them up.

Also, if you were getting components for augs from the crates alone, again, you weren't doing it right. The best source of them is the weekly conquest reward.

 

AKA, play the game more and QQ less with nonexisting problems.

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Let's look at the facts: the devs, verbally, deprecated the importance of Command/Renown Crates. As a matter of action, they're aggressively re-monetizing them.

 

They also introduced new end-game gear (Amps), which they likewise minimized ('optional,' 'not necessary,' etc.), but is the exclusive source for peak performance. (again, the cynicism of this is astounding)

 

Does anyone really doubt that Renown crates will be primary feeder for Amps? Really??

 

We'll end up with hyper-monetized end-game gear, which the devs framed as optional, not-necessary stuff from a secondary system. And some large number of people here will swallow that.

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