Hello swtor community I've finally decided to make a guide for how to play madness in PvE. I've always thought about it considering the amount of PM/whispers/mails I get in game. I finally decided to write it with the 2.8 changes and the influx of new madness sorcs/sages that will be raiding. Anyhow I hope you all enjoy it.

About me

I'm milas GM of Zorz, I've been on the top end of SWTOR progression dating back to 1.2. I've been in three guilds Memories of Xendor, HATRED, and Zorz. I currently have the #1 ranked Sorcerer/Sage parse as of 2.8 (6/13/14). When Nippon departed the game I was one of the players he recommended take over his job as class lead.

Goals & Disclaimer

The goal of this guide is to spread awareness about the class and spec. I feel I'm the best person suited in terms of actual in-game experience as I've always first cleared content on the class and at a world progression level. While I feel that I am not a spreadsheet person nor a theory crafter. While those are excellent tools and valued everything I write in this guide is from first hand experience and what I do. I'm not the person to ask if you run x crit will damage increase/decrease and other questions like that.

Skill points/builds

Stat Allocation & priority

Parsing and advanced rotation

Raiding and advanced raid tips/suggestions

Appreciate any and all feedback.

already answered. Thanks!

Opener four ticks of FL is fine, I'll run further testing and see though. To answer your question clipping 100% time will kill your force at like 5 mins. Most parses I end @ like 30% force

Interesting guide! A couple things…

It's "Nibbon", not "Nippin". :-)

It occurs to me that, due to the same timing glitch in the buff system exploited by assassin tanks, it is possible for Madness to get three effective stacks of Recklessness when timing things absolutely perfectly. Specifically:

DF (first) > FL (clip at *4* ticks) > LS (second expires)

Basically, the second charge of Recklessness is removed by the engine after the final tick of Force Lightning damage, but you can actually sneak damage into the brief interval before it is removed if you clip before the end. Since it is possible to clip Force Lightning while still getting four ticks, this allows you to get the full crit-buffed channel of Force Lightning followed by a crit-buffed Lightning Strike even after consuming the first charge with Death Field. I strongly suspect that most high-parsing Madness sorcs are already doing this without realizing it, because clipping Force Lightning in this fashion happens pretty naturally if you have optimal APM.

On the subject of clipping (specifically, at 3 stacks)… One of the things I've been playing with is doing a full 4 tick channel when I need to regain a fraction of a GCD such that the rotation times out with Affliction. The bane of my existence when I play Madness is the fact that Affliction needs to be refreshed immediately after it falls off, but Force Lightning is greater than one GCD (but less than two). I've been experimenting with using a full channel Force Lightning to "fill in" a bit of time such that my other (clipped) Force Lightnings time out correctly with Affliction. I'm not actually sure if this is a good idea or not, and I'd be really interested in feedback.

The nice thing about occasionally doing a full channel is your force drains much more slowly. Using this approach, I can actually sustain my DPS over a full 1.5 mil parse, generally running out somewhere around 6:30.

Another question that I'd like some feedback on is the GCD between Affliction and Creeping Terror. Most of the time, this times out such that I can use Death Field, Crushing Darkness or a proc'd Lightning Strike in this gap. However, once or twice per fight, the timing is such that I need to refresh Affliction immediately following a proc'd Lightning Strike but not before, meaning that I go into the re-DoT block without 3 stacks of Wrath and with Death Field on CD. In order to preserve the 1 GCD gap, I have generally been hard-casting Lightning Strike here. Is there a way to rectify the timing such that this just doesn't happen? (e.g. is it better to delay the DoT refresh long enough to get a FL channel and build Wrath?)

On the subject of the spec, it sort of surprises me that the alacrity talent is superior to the crit talent. I'll take your word for it, I just find it somewhat surprising.

Interesting guide! A couple things…

 

It's "Nibbon", not "Nippin". :-)

 

It occurs to me that, due to the same timing glitch in the buff system exploited by assassin tanks, it is possible for Madness to get three effective stacks of Recklessness when timing things absolutely perfectly. Specifically:

 

DF (first) > FL (clip at *4* ticks) > LS (second expires)

 

Basically, the second charge of Recklessness is removed by the engine after the final tick of Force Lightning damage, but you can actually sneak damage into the brief interval before it is removed if you clip before the end. Since it is possible to clip Force Lightning while still getting four ticks, this allows you to get the full crit-buffed channel of Force Lightning followed by a crit-buffed Lightning Strike even after consuming the first charge with Death Field. I strongly suspect that most high-parsing Madness sorcs are already doing this without realizing it, because clipping Force Lightning in this fashion happens pretty naturally if you have optimal APM.

 

On the subject of clipping (specifically, at 3 stacks)… One of the things I've been playing with is doing a full 4 tick channel when I need to regain a fraction of a GCD such that the rotation times out with Affliction. The bane of my existence when I play Madness is the fact that Affliction needs to be refreshed immediately after it falls off, but Force Lightning is greater than one GCD (but less than two). I've been experimenting with using a full channel Force Lightning to "fill in" a bit of time such that my other (clipped) Force Lightnings time out correctly with Affliction. I'm not actually sure if this is a good idea or not, and I'd be really interested in feedback.

 

The nice thing about occasionally doing a full channel is your force drains much more slowly. Using this approach, I can actually sustain my DPS over a full 1.5 mil parse, generally running out somewhere around 6:30.

 

Another question that I'd like some feedback on is the GCD between Affliction and Creeping Terror. Most of the time, this times out such that I can use Death Field, Crushing Darkness or a proc'd Lightning Strike in this gap. However, once or twice per fight, the timing is such that I need to refresh Affliction immediately following a proc'd Lightning Strike but not before, meaning that I go into the re-DoT block without 3 stacks of Wrath and with Death Field on CD. In order to preserve the 1 GCD gap, I have generally been hard-casting Lightning Strike here. Is there a way to rectify the timing such that this just doesn't happen? (e.g. is it better to delay the DoT refresh long enough to get a FL channel and build Wrath?)

 

On the subject of the spec, it sort of surprises me that the alacrity talent is superior to the crit talent. I'll take your word for it, I just find it somewhat surprising.

This all correct,

In dulfy's guide both Handcuff/I let the secret out.

http://imgur.com/cfWX0my

http://imgur.com/2tevv1o

I always kept it to myself cause I couldn't tell if it was a crit or was basing your next ability off of the remaining tick of recklessness.

While I posted a static rotation I don't follow it as a bible or law. 30% of madness comes out to pre-planning 4-6 gcds (generally having GCD Up for DF + dots) I'll also do a full FL channel if it means I can go FL > CD (ticks) > FL> DF >LS. As mentioned in the guide CD dots are bad and ruins deathmarks potential. Its fine if you don't apply affliction/ct as the last tick expires but 2/4 following gcds would need to be it or you'd run into CD eating even more deathmark ticks.

If you are going to reapply dots get 3 stacks of wrath. FL-DF-dots-LS-FL is fine.

Alacrity vs 2% crit to me personally is something you will always have vs something that is reliant on abilities critting and I hate crit% in any game regardless of genre. Suppose I could run 10 parses of each and get a result.

If you are going to reapply dots get 3 stacks of wrath. FL-DF-dots-LS-FL is fine.

So, are you saying I should delay my DoTs to get 3 stacks of Wrath before reapplication? Also, how are you using LS after DoTs in the above? Are you not preserving the 1 GCD gap between Aff and CT?

Here's the situation I'm looking at:

Force Lightning > Lightning Strike > (1.5 seconds on Affliction duration)

What do you do in the above? Do you channel Force Lightning to get three stacks? What if it's even less time, like 0.5 seconds (happens sometimes due to Polarity Shift and/or Force Master proc)? This is particularly relevant now that Creeping Terror buffs FL ticks.

Obviously, the following situation should never happen if I'm playing correctly:

Force Lightning > (Affliction expires) > Lightning Strike > uh…

Clearly that would be bad planning.

Alacrity vs 2% crit to me personally is something you will always have vs something that is reliant on abilities critting and I hate crit% in any game regardless of genre. Suppose I could run 10 parses of each and get a result.

I'm just thinking about the surge talent on DoT ticks. I could probably sit down and theory craft a definitive answer pretty easily, but I'm sure it's not going to make an enormous difference either way. Going for the alacrity rather than the crit is certainly going to reduce variance between parses, which is an appreciable boon for raids.

So, are you saying I should delay my DoTs to get 3 stacks of Wrath before reapplication? Also, how are you using LS after DoTs in the above? Are you not preserving the 1 GCD gap between Aff and CT?

 

Here's the situation I'm looking at:

 

Force Lightning > Lightning Strike > (1.5 seconds on Affliction duration)

 

What do you do in the above? Do you channel Force Lightning to get three stacks? What if it's even less time, like 0.5 seconds (happens sometimes due to Polarity Shift and/or Force Master proc)? This is particularly relevant now that Creeping Terror buffs FL ticks.

 

Obviously, the following situation should never happen if I'm playing correctly:

 

Force Lightning > (Affliction expires) > Lightning Strike > uh…

 

Clearly that would be bad planning.

 

 

 

I'm just thinking about the surge talent on DoT ticks. I could probably sit down and theory craft a definitive answer pretty easily, but I'm sure it's not going to make an enormous difference either way. Going for the alacrity rather than the crit is certainly going to reduce variance between parses, which is an appreciable boon for raids.

In my theory its assuming CD is on cooldown and I'll use wrath procs on LS. If it wasn't on CD I'd might go CD not sure would depend on DF CD/deathmark ticks. Though I always catch myself going LS for wrath if CD is about 2-3 seconds off CD.

In your situation 100% wait the final tick out. Use FL get stacks and apply dots. If its like < .5 second I'd probably wait if it was. My FL channel is 2.6 ( x4 focal light) and I get wrath stacks required to LS @ 0.8-1 second on cast time to clip. So it takes me 1.5 seconds to get three stacks.

Feel free to test out the ratios if you want I'd add it to the guide.

Im wondering, for a longer fight where force issues could start showing up, would it be better to move a couple of points from the corruption tree into Subversion for the increased force regen rate? (as you said, you use lightning strike a lot) Cause for a while I actually thought the 3/7/36 build was 3% crit, get subversion from lightning, and then go full madness. It never had force issues, but now I see the 2 in lightning is supposed to be for Convection and its making me question my decisions...

Never thought of that of the current NM content I'm running only fights I might have issues are

Draxxus after wave 5-6, easily solved in transition by 1-3 consumptions and self heal + medpack however.

Corrupter Zero if I affliction more than boss + gold add with CT.

Brontes you should be fine up until after 6 finger phase and just life tap to full before final phase.

Bestia, honestly might try it out next week I went OOF @ 5:30

Council I life tap after phase 1 and a little before going into phase 3 when the masters are channeling.

General rule if you need force do a few FL channels and life tap 1-3 times + Self heal.

Thank you very interesting

Btw does Surge Speed has a real PvE utility ?

Thank you very interesting

 

Btw does Surge Speed has a real PvE utility ?

Not in the sense that you use it and are disappointed that you may have used it wrong or go no real benefit.

On particular phases it has its uses

NM Brontes final phase, (mobility is amazing)

NM Calphayus could use it at the very last phase to plant a relic

NM Council extremely helpful subb 50% on Brontes when fingers come up.

So stuff like that yes but overall not really

So Madness > Lightning? That sucks I like Lightning.

In my opinion in raids 100% yes. Others will disagree I feel outside like 2/10 of the current NM fights madness is vastly superior. It now is also much higher than lighting

Nice Guide, thanks!

Thoughts on BW saying we Sorc DPS shouldnt be using our SB because there is no need?

For the NiM Fights, given our self-heals (For madness anyway) you not find points in the now Tier 1 Empty Body is more useful than the points in Convection?

In my opinion in raids 100% yes. Others will disagree I feel outside like 2/10 of the current NM fights madness is vastly superior. It now is also much higher than lighting

I'll be the counterpoint to you on that. I'll agree for most fights madness is simply better. Nefra, Grob'thok, Brontes, Tyrans, Raptus and the Council heavily favor Madness due to the relative lack of frequent target switching and occasional need for mobility. Calphayus definitely favors Lightning due the needed to burst down adds. Draxus has a lot of target switching and the more frequent AoE from Chain Lightning favors Lightning. Corruptor zero, no doubt about it favors lightning. That leaves Bestia and with the additional adds in NiM I'd say Lightning has the edge but barely. Either way, you can get away with playing either spec for these fights, just certain fights are slightly more difficult with one over the other.

That leaves Bestia and with the additional adds in NiM I'd say Lightning has the edge but barely.

Depending on groupsetup. But for burnphase on bestia, madness should be stronger.

Depending on groupsetup. But for burnphase on bestia, madness should be stronger.

Also if your gonna name a spec purely for AoE purposes, isn't 2/28/16 better?

Also if your gonna name a spec purely for AoE purposes, isn't 2/28/16 better?

bestia is first of all a single target dps check. For sure, aoe is recommanded in p1, but the real thing beginns after all adds are defeaded.

I've improved my Sage a ton just by looking at your parses, looking forward to reading your guide now Thanks for pointing me to it.

This is my best Sage parse so far...not sure I can go much further with the gear I have on this toon. http://www.torparse.com/a/697633/time/1402618202/1402618485/0/Overview

Nice Guide, thanks!

 

Thoughts on BW saying we Sorc DPS shouldnt be using our SB because there is no need?

 

For the NiM Fights, given our self-heals (For madness anyway) you not find points in the now Tier 1 Empty Body is more useful than the points in Convection?

I think they are silly in saying that. While its not needed off lockout it is 100% viable when you know 100% there is incoming damage.

I would never put points in empty body over anything in the left tree tier 1. Convection adds 4% to what equates to roughly 30% of your damage over a parse.

I'll be the counterpoint to you on that. I'll agree for most fights madness is simply better. Nefra, Grob'thok, Brontes, Tyrans, Raptus and the Council heavily favor Madness due to the relative lack of frequent target switching and occasional need for mobility. Calphayus definitely favors Lightning due the needed to burst down adds. Draxus has a lot of target switching and the more frequent AoE from Chain Lightning favors Lightning. Corruptor zero, no doubt about it favors lightning. That leaves Bestia and with the additional adds in NiM I'd say Lightning has the edge but barely. Either way, you can get away with playing either spec for these fights, just certain fights are slightly more difficult with one over the other.

Calphayus honestly doesn't really any burn phases in NM

Black balls - 12-15 second window to kill ( 70% dot efficiency)

Final burn you are able to pre dot and start with a DF-FL.

Only benefit is left side of past/present phase and those adds are meaningless.

Draxxus was one of the one I put in pro lighting although affliction + CT can be put up on boss for full duration and DF + FL on add you are burning. Also really friendly in the guardian waves. If I get footage of the fight people would be surprised how effective madness is on the fight.

Zero, Yes and no. If you follow the los and stack all the things yes if not dotting zero and the gold is good while you burn the other adds.

Bestia NM only things that get stacked our monster + tentacle + larva ( assuming other tank doesn't grab them) Affliction/CT on boss while burning monsters is amazing and helpful for when you get 20 second window before soft enrage.

I've improved my Sage a ton just by looking at your parses, looking forward to reading your guide now Thanks for pointing me to it.

 

This is my best Sage parse so far...not sure I can go much further with the gear I have on this toon. http://www.torparse.com/a/697633/time/1402618202/1402618485/0/Overview

Congratulations and np.

bestia is first of all a single target dps check. For sure, aoe is recommanded in p1, but the real thing beginns after all adds are defeaded.

I'm not sure I agree with that, actually. I think it probably depends on how you deal with tentacles and monsters. In my experience, if you have the DPS to beat the first phase, then you will have absolutely no problem with the remainder of the fight. My guild took a little while to figure out how to get past the 70 second mark, but the very first time we did, we one-shot the remainder of the fight without even discussing the late-phase mechanics.

Having AoE on that fight makes a lot of things much, much easier. You can, for example, keep your DPS full time on the monsters without ever really focusing on larva or tentacles. We did this by using a focus sentinel (splash the tentacle, focus the monster) and a sab slinger (wall bang and incendiary grenade the larva, focus the monster).

Can you treat it as a purely single-target fight? Yes. If you have all four of your DPS in high-sustain, low setup specs, you should have no trouble pulling people off to single down various things. It's perfectly viable to go much more AoE heavy though, you just have to alter your first phase strat to take advantage.

Given that lightning is capable of pulling within about 3% of Madness in terms of single-target output, has dramatically higher burst and lower setup time, I think that it has the edge in this fight. That's not to say Madness isn't viable, but I think that given equal skill in both specs, Lightning would win out.

Also expect PoV of all of NM DP sometime this week.

Just hope that another 8 man downs the content so i can see your skills.