(Now Edited to address responses. See below about the refrain of 'you need to make loot rules clear before you start.'

Changed title in response to the variations of this:

"No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods"

I can certainly do it. I personally wouldn't do it, and I'd probably be pretty mad at a person who did it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's perfectly doable.

The trouble there is confusing 'can' - which is determined solely by you - and 'may,' which takes others into account. The difference is the whole reason for this thread, and the title was accurate, but since it seems easily misunderstood, I've changed it.

Original post:

I can't believe I'm posting about item rolls, usually not a big concern for me. But poor claims hurt group dynamics, and there's no need for this kind of thing.

Today, a Sith Marauder rolled Need to get this

Cademimu Sharpshooter's Jacket

+34 Endurance

+38 Cunning

+18 Critical Rating

when I pointed out it was made for an Agent, like me, he said he intended to strip out the mods and trade them.

When I noted that the mods are Bound, he insisted that since he could wear it, he could roll. More surprising was that when he brought the issue to /General, a few voices agreed.

Most did not, but the others need to know that sort of claim is a party-breaker. This is clearly an Agent item - a huge upgrade in my case - and my next group will get a little less healing as a result.

One of the pleasures of running Flashpoints is the chance to get gear suited to you. If it's better suited to someone else, leave it for them.

Edit: Responses to the Peanut Gallery

if I am able to press NEED, then i'm allowed to do it

That approach hurts your whole team, including you.

If I think that way, too, each FP run will improve our stats only half as often. I'll end up with your Marauder item and you with the Agent jacket as often as the other way, and we'll be no stronger for it.

If the rest of the team responds that way, your odds of bettering your abilities drop to a quarter. Grabbing 'because I can' is a losing standard.

Join a guild PUG's are always problematic one way or another.

It's definitely best to run with friends. Like a lot of players, I find I need to reach out further for some missions, and that usually turns out well, in part because our community expects players to be considerate of their teammates.

regardless of your views on loot, if you don't agree on loot rules before starting the run, then you deserve to get ninjaed. Think of it this way: If you agree on loot rules ahead of time, and someone breaks them, you have grounds to report them(in other games I've played, if someone broke established loot rules, you could report them under the "scamming" flag, and you'd get your loot and they'd get an infraction)

It's not your fault when someone acts without consideration, even if you didn't give them guidelines ahead of time.

Clarifying loot rules may be a wise practice (on p. 71, Caille recommends a 'loot macro'). But not doing so doesn't make poor behavior your fault. And a loot-grabberwon't be banned or punished by Bioware.

The kind of person who would take such a thing (really: a Cunning item, for a Marauder?) would need such detailed loot rules (Can you roll on item that increases secondary but not primary stats? Vice-versa? An item you already have but with mods you want?) that you'll never address them all. If you find discussing loot rules works for you, great, but don't ignore the value of community expectations.

My hope? A class-based rolling system would be nice (and, if an option, hugely popular), but introducing it takes more developer time than the ability to trade a BoP item within a team for a limited period. That option that won't deter the defiantly selfish but would help in many other cases.

Until then, here's to a community that follows Wheaton's Law. Interpretations will differ, but it surely has something to do with respecting others, beyond 'you look after your interests and I'll look after mine.' Part of good teaming is looking after each other.

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And so begins iteration 6 of this thread.

Same old people - start your same old arguments.

The kind of person who would take such a thing (really: a Cunning item, for a Marauder?) would need such detailed loot rules (Can you roll on item that increases secondary but not primary stats? Vice-versa? An item you already have but with mods you want?) that you'll never address them all. If you find discussing loot rules works for you, great, but don't ignore the value of community expectations.

EDIT: There is an obvious corollary rule that I guess isn't so obvious to some: If I can't use the item in some way, I am not going to roll for it.

Actually it doesn't require very complicated rules at all. You roll for what you want, I roll for what I want and if we disagree and both want the same thing -- the dice decide.

 

EDIT: There is an obvious corollary rule that I guess isn't so obvious to some: If I can't use the item in some way, I am not going to roll for it.

Terminology aside. If you're advocating that everybody ascribe to a more expanded definition of the term "need" then in essence you are giving everyone license to come up with whatever plausable justification they can to roll need. If that is the case I say that three choices are absolutely unecessary and one should be removed. I don't really care what you want to call the one that remains.

(I was editing when the last thread closed)

EDIT:

Personally I think your line of argument here smacks of the same sort of entitlement that people are showing when they are saying "you can't roll on that, it's my gear".

I'm fine with people defining their own need, and each of us rolling need as we choose, and greed when we don't feel like it's an item we "need". I'm fine with just having a chance at the items I want; I don't feel entitled to specific items, and am not worried about getting my "fair share" just my "fair chance".

The only way I can see your argument working is if you want to force everyone else into a situation where you feel justified always rolling, so that you get your fair share. In that case, I can see where you might want to remove the greed button, since you wouldn't be planning on using it.

And so begins iteration 6 of this thread.

Same old people - start your same old arguments.

This can be summed up as

Main specc rolls

Off specc rolls

If you only will or can be using that gear for when soloing on companions that should be counted as off specc roll

If you will and can use that gear and it is for youre role that you joined the group as then it is a need role.

Hmm.

Why not just change the TEXT on the Greed button to: "I wish to sell this" button. It seems you either truly need the item or you're just going to sell it. So renaming it might make things easier for people to deal with mentally (a psychological thing).

And also make an actual button for "Pass" instead of hoping/relying on people to click the X in the corner.

Maybe these changes would need to exist in concert with other suggestions, not just by themselves.

I'm not sure of what an "off specc" roll is but how you are going to use your loot shouldn't matter to anyone in the PUG, since you probably won't be playing with them again until you have outleveled the loot. If I am going to be soloing next, why shouldn't I be looking to upgrade my soloing ability? What business is it of yours?

If you are in a long-term group and planning to focus only on grouping, then you probably can work out some loot rules that work for you for that group.

If am going to solo next, since I will be using my loot for soloing, I shouldn't be able to roll on anything at all? What if I am going to be doing a flashpoint next with my friend and our companions? What business is it of yours what I am going to do next?

Why not just change the TEXT on the Greed button to: "I wish to sell this" button. It seems you either truly need the item or you're just going to sell it. So renaming it might make things easier for people to deal with mentally (a psychological thing).

 

And also make an actual button for "Pass" instead of hoping/relying on people to click the X in the corner.

Good ideas.

NEED - Can you use it in some way on your toons?

GREED - You want to sell it.

I still don't see why outmoded WoW players are having issues with this concept.

I'm a little shocked that such a situation occurred. I'd been in situations where people rolled for things they didn't need out of stupidity or a lack of understanding of the game's concepts, but never with this level of intentionality. Now, considering that this is apparently a new thread for the same forums, I have not all the other arguments presented here, but how does one justify that if I can click need that is an automatic indication that I may. As a Jedi Guardian the game gives me the capability to roll need on just about anything, but is most certainly against commonly accepted courtesy to roll on something that is tailored to someone else.

Clarifying loot rules can be time consuming and having a hard fix via the game client will undoubtedly bring about unintended consequences. It sounds like situations like this is what master looter was made for.

I'm not sure of what an "off specc" roll is but how you are going to use your loot shouldn't matter to anyone in the PUG, since you probably won't be playing with them again until you have outleveled the loot. If I am going to be soloing next, why shouldn't I be looking to upgrade my soloing ability? What business is it of yours?

 

If you are in a long-term group and planning to focus only on grouping, then you probably can work out some loot rules that work for you for that group.

 

If am going to solo next, since I will be using my loot for soloing, I shouldn't be able to roll on anything at all? What if I am going to be doing a flashpoint next with my friend and our companions? What business is it of yours what I am going to do next?

Sorry because you will not be playing with the people in a few levels they dont deserve common courtesy of getting the gear that they can use?

disregarding on what companion they will use.

Because you feel entitled for maybe to using it for a companion a few levels?

And if you use the companion inside the instance sure roll need if the companion is active as a MS roll.

If no companion is there and active roll OS

As I understand it, this all started because we have a system where companions can where gear. This, to my understanding, is a new concept, though my MMO experiecne is quite limited so please correct me.

The biggest arguement seems to be that people will role NEED on items they can not use, but there companions can. This is were 95% of the arguements seem to be starting.

Perhaps people need to adapt to the new reality, rather than trying to enforce outmoded ways on it.

There's gonna come a time, in the quite near future, where people are going to be mostly kitted, and this arguement is going to whither away.

As a Jedi Guardian the game gives me the capability to roll need on just about anything, but is most certainly against commonly accepted courtesy to roll on something that is tailored to someone else.

Good ideas.

Thanks. It just seems to me that having buttons with the text "Need" and "Greed" on them is introducing a big gigantic black hole of ambiguity with regard to correlating to people's actual intentions/desires with said item.

The actual text needs to change imho, as well as anything else people suggest. Need/Greed is probably okay generally in other games, but for a game like SWToR with companions and their own set of gear - this big mess was inevitable. Where's the damn foresight from Bioware. :\

Sorry because you will not be playing with the people in a few levels they dont deserve common courtesy of getting the gear that they can use?

Sorry because you will not be playing with the people in a few levels they dont deserve common courtesy of getting the gear that they can use?

disregarding on what companion they will use. Because you feel entitled for maybe to using it for a companion a few levels?

And if you use the companion inside the instance sure roll need if the companion is active as a MS roll.

Should I boot troopers from my group to let my companion tank so that I get the loot and they don't (rather than letting us both have a 50% chance)?

EDIT: generally speaking, if there is a Trooper that really wants a particular piece of gear, I am likely to let them have it. But that is because I choose to, not because there is some rule saying that I must. However, if the Trooper has gotten a couple of things and I haven't needed on anything yet, then I might consider needing on an item. The situation doesn't really come up that often because I try to keep Akaavi Spar in purple/orange gear so don't generally need whatever drops in any case.

I'm a little shocked that such a situation occurred. I'd been in situations where people rolled for things they didn't need out of stupidity or a lack of understanding of the game's concepts, but never with this level of intentionality. Now, considering that this is apparently a new thread for the same forums, I have not all the other arguments presented here, but how does one justify that if I can click need that is an automatic indication that I may. As a Jedi Guardian the game gives me the capability to roll need on just about anything, but is most certainly against commonly accepted courtesy to roll on something that is tailored to someone else.

 

Clarifying loot rules can be time consuming and having a hard fix via the game client will undoubtedly bring about unintended consequences. It sounds like situations like this is what master looter was made for.

The overriding issue is the definition of need.

My companion can use the gear for just as many levels as a Trooper can..

Actually only If you feel like using just that companion or have it summoned ,Instead of when main character player that will have it equipped 100% of that time and only on that there is a big difference.

Not sure how this matters whether the companion is there. My companion shares my roll. If a companion is in an instance, should he get a separate roll?

Should I boot troopers from my group to let my companion tank so that I get the loot and they don't (rather than letting us both have a 50% chance)?

 

EDIT: generally speaking, if there is a Trooper that really wants a particular piece of gear, I am likely to let them have it. But that is because I choose to, not because there is some rule saying that I must. However, if the Trooper has gotten a couple of things and I haven't needed on anything yet, then I might consider needing on an item. The situation doesn't really come up that often because I try to keep Akaavi Spar in purple/orange gear.

But then what happens when youre companion isnt enough anymore and instead you actually do need real players to actually being able to make the FP and kill bosses and get the drops?

Youre way get's doesnt matter if we need real players to kill this boss my solobility is more important.

While my way is that first you serve what the people in the group will use when actually grouping .

And if they no one doesnt need it for grouping you start with for companions /for soloing

Actually only If you feel like using just that companion or have it summoned ,Instead of when main character player that will have it equipped 100% of that time and only on that there is a big difference.

Incidentally, what's your native language?

But then what happens when youre companion isnt enough anymore and instead you actually do need real players to actually being able to make the FP and kill bosses and get the drops?

Youre way get's doesnt matter if we need real players to kill this boss my solobility is more important.

 

While my way is that first you serve what the people in the group will use when actually grouping .

And if they no one doesnt need it for grouping you start with for companions /for soloing

No, my way is "everyone is entitled to roll on the stuff that they want" ... your way is "people are only allowed to roll on the stuff that I say they can roll on"

Your way is about feeling like you are entitled to gear for biased/arbitrary reasons. My way is about not feeling like anyone is entitled to gear unless they've won in it in a fair, unbiased, impartial roll.

Honestly though, in your play experience, how has people been rolling when the loot rules weren't established before the group event?

Actually only If you feel like using just that companion or have it summoned ,Instead of when main character player that will have it equipped 100% of that time and only on that there is a big differemce.

But then what happens when youre companion isnt enough anymore and instead you actually do need real players to actually being able to make the FP and kill bosses and get the drops? Youre way get's doesnt matter if we need real players to kill this boss my solobility is more important.

 

While my way is that first you serve what the people in the group will use when actually grouping . And if they no one doesnt need it for grouping you start with for companions /for soloing

Your way serves the people in the group that will be grouping. It doesn't necessarily help those that will not be grouping. Just because I am grouping right now doesn't mean that I will be grouping later. Increasing my solo ability will help me get the levels required to get to the next flashpoint.

A system that favours those that plan on grouping is certainly fair to the players that plan on grouping.

I am not in any way saying that the Trooper can't have any loot. As far as I am concerned, he is welcome to roll on anything that drop that he thinks could benefit his character. Sometimes he will win and sometimes I will win.

If someone else wants loot that's for my class, they can roll on that too. I can roll on it if I want it.

Letting people decide for themselves what gear will help them advance their character seems to me to be the most reasonable approach that is respectful of each person's playstyle.

This "I need for my companion" argument is mind-blowing. Your companion did not tank in that instance. Your companion did not heal in that instance. Your companion did not dps in that instance.

If your companion is so great and needs the gear, next time don't look for another party member and let your awesome companion fill in that role.