New name for triple smash?

No. I'd rather stay quiet until you find out .

Arenas have been fun. Most fun I've had in SWTOR in over a year. It is surprisingly better executed than expected. Of course, it comes with its thorns and flowers which is what will be discussed in this thread. This is a thread solely dedicated to the feedback on Ranked Arena on the PTS. It has nothing to do with Ranked Warzones or its removal. That being said, let's move on.

Pros

- Easy to Setup

- Solo Queue option is an excellent addition

- Overall Class balance isn't that bad

- Solid Execution

 

Cons

- Deserter Bug

- Over reliance on Operative Medics

- Warrior Dominance

- Bolster Broken (Again)

 

I think the best part about this new game mode is that it will be very easy for people to get in the action. Setting up a group of 4 is not hard and to top it off, solo queue ranked will assure that pretty much anyone who has the desire to participate in arena, will do so. In addition, the way how the Arena performs is seemingly smooth. Skill will be bled out more evidently and top tier teams will be doing more than just spamming PvE rotations into a target.

 

The class balance isn't awful. There are multiple successful comps out there - but there is also a flaw. The Warrior dominance is starting to take its toll and this needs to be addressed. Most idealized setups currently consists of anywhere from 1-3 warriors per team. Jugg Tank is mandatory, although VG can substitute this spot with almost complete efficiency. Shadow tanks are absolutely horrible and their PvE issues are actually shining in Arena more than before. But this also brings up the other issue: How exactly would you tone down Juggernauts to make the other two tanks more applicable? Or should we just buff the other two? (Especially Assassin) By default, Juggernauts in their design are superior in tanking, so how would you make the others comparable?

 

Moving on to the DPS section. Marauder / Sentinel DPS (Mainly pointing the scope at Smash) needs a tone down. They have too many defensives cooldowns combined with consistent burst, respectable single target and an MS (Mortal Strike aka Healing Debuff). They are far too strong defensively for all that they can do. Comps have been stacking two of these classes at once with a great deal of success. This also extends into other 'cheese' comps such as 2xSorcs that will make a Deception Assassin hate their lives. The problem with this is that stacking 2 of any class should not be this efficient, which is why you should consider possibly having a 1-per-class option.

 

The next issue is probably the biggest one. Operative Healers. They are godly right now. Far too much of a payoff for the ease of the class. It's more survivable than a tank. It does just as much healing as a sage without the burden of having to cast. It's management flows much easier. As it stands, this and this only is the healer to have in Arena and I have a gigantic problem with that. This class | spec needs a serious tone down if we want to help break up some cookie cutters. There's no reason why Arena should only be limited to one healer.

 

As it stands, Sage Healers are easily shut down and Merc Healers are far too clunky to properly synergize with the small scale environment. I don't think Sorc / Merc heals need dramatic buffs. I believe Operatives need to be toned down so that the other two can shine. If anything, Operatives should receive a nerf whilst Mercs go up. Sages are a bit tricky because of their design for siege warfare / OPs content.

 

Now to some more technical aspects. Why doesn't this mode have Arena frames? We have Focus Target, so I'm sure setting up some kind of Arena Frames would not be that difficult. It would make the 'flow' of things a lot more smoother. I feel like as it is, it's missing some things. This is one of them and would help to make battle a little less clustered. There's also a heart-wrenching bug known as the Deserter-kick. Players are entering Arena only to be kicked from debuff at random. We generally have to wait at least 30 seconds before entering a game. I'm sure this isn't intentional, but this needs to be looked at.

 

And what about Bolster? Seems you've created a monster BW. Sooner or later you'll have to address this elephant in the room because from what I've seen on the PTS, you're only sweeping the dirt under the carpet. Thing is, this won't be an easy fix either. You've based a lot of PvP around it and to strip it away would not be an easy feat. However, this problem is growing and now you've added a new layer to the problem. Stop band-aiding this mess and clean it for good. Get rid of bolster.

 

This is 1 report of things thus far and I'm sure there will be others.

Thanks for the new mode.

So basically the best comp is tank jug op healer and mara 2x. I'm really surprised that the comp proved to be good.

Nah sike, I called these classes being good in arena long ago as I'm sure others did, it's the obvious choice. I'm mildly surprised you didnt mention any kind of new godmode comp like 4 ops but w/e. op classes are op.

I'm mildly surprised you didnt mention any kind of new godmode comp like 4 ops but w/e. op classes are op.

I don't want Dongcleave or Monkeycentral nerfed... However, this was addressed by the 'class stacking' comment.

I don't want Dongcleave or Monkeycentral nerfed... However, this was addressed by the 'class stacking' comment.

Dont compare us to smash, dongcleave can be countered and actually requires a shred of skill.

JK VIAGRA CARRIES DONGCLEAVE!

Dongcleave doesnt seem to work with smash (we played badly with smash for a lot of reasons) but we think dong / deception is something we will eventually try.

Regarding smash:

Just curious, because I'm seeing a lot of opinions that could lead me to believe either..

When people are calling for smash to be nerfed, do you mean Marauder smash or are you including Jugg in there as well? Its my opinion that Guardian/Jugg isn't nearly as bad as Mara/Sent, mostly because of the defensive cooldowns/group utility the Mara brings to the table. The situational tanking is nice, but its hardly exclusive to the class. The positioning is really good on the Jugg/Guardian, but it really takes skill to make it as useful as it can be.

Only reason I bring this up is because considering what I've saw in the past, every time they gut a spec to fix it they usually break the shared spec for the other advanced class. I just don't want another PT/Merc situation on our hands.

but we think dong / deception is something we will eventually try.

That's actually my main comp.

Regarding smash:

 

Just curious, because I'm seeing a lot of opinions that could lead me to believe either..

 

When people are calling for smash to be nerfed, do you mean Marauder smash or are you including Jugg in there as well? Its my opinion that Guardian/Jugg isn't nearly as bad as Mara/Sent, mostly because of the defensive cooldowns/group utility the Mara brings to the table. The situational tanking is nice, but its hardly exclusive to the class. The positioning is really good on the Jugg/Guardian, but it really takes skill to make it as useful as it can be.

 

Only reason I bring this up is because considering what I've saw in the past, every time they gut a spec to fix it they usually break the shared spec for the other advanced class. I just don't want another PT/Merc situation on our hands.

mara/sents do have tremendous dcds, but they also hit harder. the have more dmg buffs related to their xen buff and the straight % dmg increase (forget the name - inspiration?). I think things would be a lot better for everyone if they make the shared spec a dot spec and let the max burst spec be a unique spec for each class. so yes, nerf focus all around. and yes, that would hurt guardians. but christ! make the other specs worth playing.

that's actually my main comp.

dongception?

dongception?

A dong within a dong?

Still don't know what the whole dongcleave stands for.. apparently its 3 set classes and specs with 1 open spot for a dps?

Merp.

Still don't know what the whole dongcleave stands for.. apparently its 3 set classes and specs with 1 open spot for a dps?

 

Merp.

DONGCLEAVE

- Tactics Vanguard

- Tactics Vanguard

- Tactics Vanguard with Ion Cell

- Healer

At the moment the most viable healer for arena is operative healer and playing with anything other than an operative is gimping yourself so a scoundrel is healing the dongcleave.

You will instantly recognize the dongcleave when you see the THE DONGZAPPER, which is the captain of the dongsquad.

If you see the DONGZAPPER you gotta run otherwise you might end up DONGED.

DONGCLEAVE

- Tactics Vanguard

- Tactics Vanguard

- Tactics Vanguard with Ion Cell

- Healer

 

At the moment the most viable healer for arena is operative healer and playing with anything other than an operative is gimping yourself so a scoundrel is healing the dongcleave.

 

You will instantly recognize the dongcleave when you see the THE DONGZAPPER, which is the captain of the dongsquad.

 

If you see the DONGZAPPER you gotta run otherwise you might end up DONGED.

Globalling Healers through Guard since 2007.

dongception?

The name, love it. +5

are you all high?

Yea, idk. They must be non-marauders/operatives bored of not being able to participate in arena.

 

The class balance isn't awful. There are multiple successful comps out there - but there is also a flaw. The Warrior dominance is starting to take its toll and this needs to be addressed. Most idealized setups currently consists of anywhere from 1-3 warriors per team. Jugg Tank is mandatory, although VG can substitute this spot with almost complete efficiency. Shadow tanks are absolutely horrible and their PvE issues are actually shining in Arena more than before. But this also brings up the other issue: How exactly would you tone down Juggernauts to make the other two tanks more applicable? Or should we just buff the other two? (Especially Assassin) By default, Juggernauts in their design are superior in tanking, so how would you make the others comparable?

 

Moving on to the DPS section. Marauder / Sentinel DPS (Mainly pointing the scope at Smash) needs a tone down. They have too many defensives cooldowns combined with consistent burst, respectable single target and an MS (Mortal Strike aka Healing Debuff). They are far too strong defensively for all that they can do. Comps have been stacking two of these classes at once with a great deal of success. This also extends into other 'cheese' comps such as 2xSorcs that will make a Deception Assassin hate their lives. The problem with this is that stacking 2 of any class should not be this efficient, which is why you should consider possibly having a 1-per-class option.

 

And what about Bolster? Seems you've created a monster BW. Sooner or later you'll have to address this elephant in the room because from what I've seen on the PTS, you're only sweeping the dirt under the carpet. Thing is, this won't be an easy fix either. You've based a lot of PvP around it and to strip it away would not be an easy feat. However, this problem is growing and now you've added a new layer to the problem. Stop band-aiding this mess and clean it for good. Get rid of bolster.

 

This is 1 report of things thus far and I'm sure there will be others.

Thanks for the new mode.

So which is it?--"Class balance isn't awful" or Sentinel DPS needs a 'tone down' or that Juggernaut tanks also need a 'tone down', or is it that, "other 'cheese' comps such as 2xSorcs that will make a Deception Assassin hate their lives"? Reads to me a like a L2P issue. Don't think so? What if, as a Sentinel, I whined about a 2x sniper combination or a full stealth team? What do you think you would tell me?

Moving on...

I have long believed in advocating for your own class, not subverting the others. What you seem to be about is 'nerf Juggs, they're too tanky!--nerf Sentinels, at least the Focus spec and their defensive cooldowns are too strong!--nerf sorcerers because they're the hard counter to Deception!' I guess you think you have a mandate from the Assassin community to push for positive balance for your own class. That's fine. Just remember that other classes and class reps can do it too.

I see also that you opine that two of any class may be too strong and that queues should allow only 1 per class (advanced or basic class?). Maybe that would be good for balance, but it would anger the playerbase and REALLY make them miss 8v8 ranked (quite why this is a resource drain eludes me and you have never responded to numerous questions regarding resource allocation). With the advent of arenas and the abrogation of 8v8, I think this restriction of 1 class limit per team would be pernicious to the PvP community. People want choice and abhor arbitrary limits. Remember the huge thread on "premades are ruining regular warzones"? The big argument there was that people want to play with friends and that this is a social game. Without the breathing room to group with players and classes they want the population of the game would become anemic at best. What do you think the result of your suggestion would be?

Moving on...

What is so terrible about bolster? Care to explain it to a layperson?

You have a litany of complaints and you don't back any of them up--at least not in this post. For those of us who do not make a habit of reading your works, please explain.

smash mara

smash mara

op

jugg

is the best comp and is only beaten by "DONGCLEAVE" that was probably designed to beat this comp because of its overwhelming strength. dongcleave i would imagine does not perform against any other comp near as well as god cleave does though. its simply a "counter pick" to what is by far the best comp you can run at a high level.

vengeance jugg is laughable.

jugg tank is godlike. no nerf needed though as its very dependent on skill of player and a well built class for arenas in this game.

carnage is highly overrated by a lot of people right now. and is vastly inferior to rage.

annihilation is completely unviable.

deception sin is pretty good and can replace one of the maras for a comp that is still winnable against good teams but not as good as double smash. (and there are comps that you will face that will make a sin very weak and a huge handicap for your team. deception sin performs very well against all of the classes that nobody will/nobody should be running with)

all 3 sorc trees are completely and utterly awful and not even close to being viable at high level play. (time for the god buff or gg)

op healers ruined ranked 8v8 and they will ruin arenas, on many levels, unless they are nerfed into the ground. (time for the god nerf or gg)

snipers are pretty bad but probably no worse than they thought they would have it. they are fine for mid level play and solo queue against low/mid level players though.

despite what many people thought, and many still think, mercs are not very good. they arent on sorc level of bad or anything, but they are still bad and I cannot imagine why anyone would take a merc over a smash mara against any comp (at high level)

...............................................................................

I seriously hope that if they nerf smash they dont leave carnage and annihilation alone, believeing them to be "good enough". Because they are not.

(Right now people have a choice of running rage or carnage. If smash is nerfed into the ground then carnage will be marauders only choice. Snipers, the other 3 tree dps class, have always had 3 viable builds. I really hope they dont ruin a class in an attempt to balance it.)

So which is it?--"Class balance isn't awful" or Sentinel DPS needs a 'tone down' or that Juggernaut tanks also need a 'tone down', or is it that, "other 'cheese' comps such as 2xSorcs that will make a Deception Assassin hate their lives"? Reads to me a like a L2P issue. Don't think so? What if, as a Sentinel, I whined about a 2x sniper combination or a full stealth team? What do you think you would tell me?

 

What is so terrible about bolster? Care to explain it to a layperson?

 

1st point: What they mean is this, over all the class balance is in a reasonable place, with only a couple of classes needing MINOR tweaks here and there. If you choose to look at other games, where there are a NUMBER of classes needing MAJOR tweaks to have comparative balance between the classes, one does have to agree that OVERALL class balance in this game, for pvp purposes, is in a reasonable place, being that as stated only a couple of classes needing some MINOR tweaks to them.

What is terrible about Bolster? at max level? where do we start? that is my question. I like to look at things in a black and white kinda way with regards to Bolster. So I ask:

Why would you need to bolster MAX level toons at all in this aspect of the game? Here's one for any one really, since I don't actually do any of it so I am really not sure, but do they by default use Bolster in any of the ops in the game, you know so fresh undergeared people can compete with those seasoned campaigners on the meter's be it healing, dps, or as a tank?.. I would assume not, but to me there is no difference, in PvE people have to work at their toons, and do the grind, to achieve the max results for their toon, in PvP they should have to as well IMO. But alas it's not really worth arguing about Bolster.

Resolve on the other hand ......

smash mara

smash mara

op

jugg

 

is the best comp and is only beaten by "DONGCLEAVE" that was probably designed to beat this comp because of its overwhelming strength. dongcleave i would imagine does not perform against any other comp near as well as god cleave does though. its simply a "counter pick" to what is by far the best comp you can run at a high level.

 

vengeance jugg is laughable.

 

jugg tank is godlike. no nerf needed though as its very dependent on skill of player and a well built class for arenas in this game.

 

carnage is highly overrated by a lot of people right now. and is vastly inferior to rage.

 

annihilation is completely unviable.

 

deception sin is pretty good and can replace one of the maras for a comp that is still winnable against good teams but not as good as double smash. (and there are comps that you will face that will make a sin very weak and a huge handicap for your team. deception sin performs very well against all of the classes that nobody will/nobody should be running with)

 

all 3 sorc trees are completely and utterly awful and not even close to being viable at high level play. (time for the god buff or gg)

 

op healers ruined ranked 8v8 and they will ruin arenas, on many levels, unless they are nerfed into the ground. (time for the god nerf or gg)

 

snipers are pretty bad but probably no worse than they thought they would have it. they are fine for mid level play and solo queue against low/mid level players though.

 

despite what many people thought, and many still think, mercs are not very good. they arent on sorc level of bad or anything, but they are still bad and I cannot imagine why anyone would take a merc over a smash mara against any comp (at high level)

 

...............................................................................

 

I seriously hope that if they nerf smash they dont leave carnage and annihilation alone, believeing them to be "good enough". Because they are not.

 

(Right now people have a choice of running rage or carnage. If smash is nerfed into the ground then carnage will be marauders only choice. Snipers, the other 3 tree dps class, have always had 3 viable builds. I really hope they dont ruin a class in an attempt to balance it.)

I agree on your assessment of the best comp, but I really think you're selling snipers and sorcs way short. They are still powerful classes in a good player's hands and are capable of filling a slot. They just require more planning than the other classes because you can't eat **** for 30s then pop a "LOLZ IM INVINCIBLE" cooldown (actually sorcs can). And in the case of sniper, imo it's op and should compete with mara but also quite boring/annoying so nobody bothers to learn it.

I've also seen top tier sorcs easily keep up with operatives and maras in healing/dps with competent teams, so I'm not sold on them being out either.

As for carnage being overrated, I've never heard anyone say that and I've always been of the opposite opinion. It has higher killing potential, just less often than smash. But when that is available it's also more likely to succeed. It's much easier to heal through a single smash and some filler than to heal through a berserk-gore-ravage-scream-vicious throw (and retaliation if it's available). Yes it's less frequent, but the potential is superior. And before anyone says "ITS SUCCEPTIBLE TO CC!" every class dps rotation is succeptible to cc. Carnage actually has a fair use of cc/kiting protection with root breaker camo and roots built into the dps. I still think carnage is quite good.

Vengeance I think cc immunity can be very strong, nothing else to say there as the damage was kind of lacking when I played it, but I'm far from an expert on vengance. CC immunity in this game is VERY strong though.

Deception, I think it's an overrated spec especially in rated play, even arenas, for reasons I've explained a million times. But I think your point on deception was kind of leaning in my direction so we probably agree on deception's performance.

Lastly and obviously I agree with you on op healing, mara smash, and jugg tank. I also am curious of DONGCLEAVE, I have no idea why 3 PT's is somehow good but the reactions on this thread make it sound like it does indeed somehow counter the obvious comp.

SO anyway, seeing eye to eye on some things and not on others but hopefully there's some good discussion to be had here because I'm quite bored right now.

I agree on your assessment of the best comp, but I really think you're selling snipers and sorcs way short. They are still powerful classes in a good player's hands and are capable of filling a slot. They just require more planning than the other classes because you can't eat **** for 30s then pop a "LOLZ IM INVINCIBLE" cooldown (actually sorcs can). And in the case of sniper, imo it's op and should compete with mara but also quite boring/annoying so nobody bothers to learn it.

 

I've also seen top tier sorcs easily keep up with operatives and maras in healing/dps with competent teams, so I'm not sold on them being out either.

 

As for carnage being overrated, I've never heard anyone say that and I've always been of the opposite opinion. It has higher killing potential, just less often than smash. But when that is available it's also more likely to succeed. It's much easier to heal through a single smash and some filler than to heal through a berserk-gore-ravage-scream-vicious throw. Yes it's less frequent, but the potential is superior. And before anyone says "ITS SUCCEPTIBLE TO CC!" every class dps rotation is succeptible to cc. Carnage actually has a fair use of cc/kiting protection with root breaker camo and roots built into the dps. I still think carnage is quite good.

 

Vengeance I think cc immunity can be very strong, nothing else to say there as the damage was kind of lacking when I played it, but I'm far from an expert on vengance. CC immunity in this game is VERY strong though.

 

Deception, I think it's an overrated spec especially in rated play, even arenas, for reasons I've explained a million times. But I think your point on deception was kind of leaning in my direction so we probably agree on deception's performance.

 

Lastly and obviously I agree with you on op healing, mara smash, and jugg tank. I also am curious of DONGCLEAVE, I have no idea why 3 PT's is somehow good but the reactions on this thread make it sound like it does indeed somehow counter the obvious comp.

 

SO anyway, seeing eye to eye on some things and not on others but hopefully there's some good discussion to be had here because I'm quite bored right now.

99% of the good tanks of this game (mostly juggs but other classes too) have a "set standard way of tanking".

Dongcleave, while not composed of AMAGADOP specs like smash, counters this "set standard way of taking".

While the tanks of this game keep tanking the way they are, they are prolly getting donged.

Dongcleave is far from unbeatable, it doesnt even counter marauders (double sniper would counter marauders), it counters turtle tanking that is so powerful and common in this game.

Metagame will evolve tho who knows what the future holds.

99% of the good tanks of this game (mostly juggs but other classes too) have a "set standard way of tanking".

 

Dongcleave, while not composed of AMAGADOP specs like smash, counters this "set standard way of taking".

 

While the tanks of this game keep tanking the way they are, they are prolly getting donged.

 

Dongcleave is far from unbeatable, it doesnt even counter marauders (double sniper would counter marauders), it counters turtle tanking that is so powerful and common in this game.

 

Metagame will evolve tho who knows what the future holds.

I think I have a few ideas on where you're going with this, but it'd be cool to see some gameplay videos. I don't really play this game anymore because frankly it sucks, but when I'm bored like I am now it's still cool to see some new stuff I haven't seen and this interests me.

And yeah I'm still left wondering why dual sniper isn't the comp of choice since it hard counters the mara/jugg so well which composes 75% of the "ideal" comp while still doing great dps and being a great class on its own. I'm surprised people are saying snipers suck in 4v4.

http://www.twitch.tv/aioribfz

DONGSTREAM

http://www.twitch.tv/aioribfz

 

DONGSTREAM

logged off, but ggs to nakrl and the others. Tuning in.

#dongfan4lyfe