At the guild summit. The combat designers stated unequivocally that they believe that tanks on rated teams will not continue to wear DPS gear and will switch to tanking gear, since it makes them vulnerable to the highest damage classes in this game. This is quite simply, not true.

 

As a tank shadow since day 1, I will say that my least feared class are these so called high damage classes reliant mostly on a great deal of 'white' damage ex. Sharpshooter/Saboteur Gunslinger, Marksman/Engineering Sniper, and Combat Sentinel/Carnage Marauder.

 

Simply put, I have enough base defense against their class that the drop in shield/defense/absorb is worth it in PvP. And I'm certain that most other tank classes will agree with me. The primary stat in PvP is our damage resistance, and since armor is the same across the board in our DPS gear set with our tank gear set, many of us do not wear our tank gear, and will continue to do so in rated. The only thing we lose is around 3k HP, give or take, for a major increase in damage potential.

 

So what do we do to fix it?

 

We take away the benefit to wearing DPS gear in our respective tank stances, while buffing the benefit of shield/defense/absorb. But how?

 

In combat trance/dark charge, soresu form, and Ion cell/Gas cylinder, we modify the coefficient to +power to make its benefit minimal.

 

Now I know all of you people out there are crying foul, so hear me out for a moment. In order to buff shield/defense/absorb, we make it so it has benefit against yellow damage classes but at half value.

 

For example, a tank shadow with 30% defense, 40% shield percent, and 40% shield absorb would have a 15% chance to deflect yellow damage attacks, a 20% chance to shield against yellow damage attacks, and when an attack is shielded, 20% damage absorption. This would apply to white damage classes too, allowing a passive buff to 'white' damage classes by halving our current defense against their most effective abilities. If you feel this would make defense too powerful in PvP, then modify it so its slightly less than a half, down to perhaps even one third of its PvE percentage, so that shield and absorb will remain useful stats.

 

In return, I feel that Deception/Infiltration/Balance/Madness shadows/assassins should gain enough benefit to put their armor on par with DPS heavy armor classes, or if not that, then some of the gap closers, and defensive cooldowns 'upgrades' that their tanking counterparts get. Similar benefits need to be given to Scoundrels/Operatives as well, in their DPS specs.

 

Just please, fix this. I want to feel like an actual tank. My DPS in tanking gear was already at the point where I felt like it was more than adequate for this game. The current situation is absurd, and people who want to be DPS in PvP ought to be speccing DPS.

Edited March 30, 2012 by EthanThristam

This is a great idea.

 

PvP "tanking" in this game just feels like a strange, passive form of proactive healing. You guard a target to reduce it's damage and taunt enemies to reduce their damage to other targets. The damage you "defend" against is effectively healed ahead of time. But when an enemy attacks you, unless you use defensive cooldowns, you really aren't much better off than many DPS classes. PvP tanks don't really absorb a great deal of incoming damage, so as a tank they aren't a real threat.

 

I'd be happy to lose damage output as an Immortal Jugg to gain greater survivability. Yes there would be issues with tanks guarding nodes or doors in certain flashpoints... but that's what testing and balance would be for. There are some great tools for tanks to use in pvp, we just need a little push to actually allow us to really play as tanks -- and not just as pests.

At the guild summit. The combat designers stated unequivocally that they believe that tanks on rated teams will not continue to wear DPS gear and will switch to tanking gear, since it makes them vulnerable to the highest damage classes in this game. This is quite simply, not true.

 

As a tank shadow since day 1, I will say that my least feared class are these so called high damage classes reliant mostly on a great deal of 'white' damage ex. Sharpshooter/Saboteur Gunslinger, Marksman/Engineering Sniper, and Combat Sentinel/Carnage Marauder.

 

Simply put, I have enough base defense against their class that the drop in shield/defense/absorb is worth it in PvP. And I'm certain that most other tank classes will agree with me. The primary stat in PvP is our damage resistance, and since armor is the same across the board in our DPS gear set with our tank gear set, many of us do not wear our tank gear, and will continue to do so in rated. The only thing we lose is around 3k HP, give or take, for a major increase in damage potential.

 

So what do we do to fix it?

 

We take away the benefit to wearing DPS gear in our respective tank stances, while buffing the benefit of shield/defense/absorb. But how?

 

In combat trance/dark charge, soresu form, and Ion cell/Gas cylinder, we modify the coefficient to +power to make its benefit minimal.

 

Now I know all of you people out there are crying foul, so hear me out for a moment. In order to buff shield/defense/absorb, we make it so it has benefit against yellow damage classes but at half value.

 

For example, a tank shadow with 30% defense, 40% shield percent, and 40% shield absorb would have a 15% chance to deflect yellow damage attacks, a 20% chance to shield against yellow damage attacks, and when an attack is shielded, 20% damage absorption. This would apply to white damage classes too, allowing a passive buff to 'white' damage classes by halving our current defense against their most effective abilities. If you feel this would make defense too powerful in PvP, then modify it so its slightly less than a half, down to perhaps even one third of its PvE percentage, so that shield and absorb will remain useful stats.

 

In return, I feel that Deception/Infiltration/Balance/Madness shadows/assassins should gain enough benefit to put their armor on par with DPS heavy armor classes, or if not that, then some of the gap closers, and defensive cooldowns 'upgrades' that their tanking counterparts get. Similar benefits need to be given to Scoundrels/Operatives as well, in their DPS specs.

 

Just please, fix this. I want to feel like an actual tank. My DPS in tanking gear was already at the point where I felt like it was more than adequate for this game. The current situation is absurd, and people who want to be DPS in PvP ought to be speccing DPS.

 

I agree.

 

It's quite disturbing the the combat designers actually believed this would be the case. That's pretty far out of touch....

Edited March 30, 2012 by LoKiei

I won't claim to know the motivations of the developers here. All I know is that in order for PvP and PvE to remain healthy, then they need to be treated as two seperate animals, with two seperate rulesets.

 

This will alleviate player concerns by making nerfs to PvE not affect PvP, and vice versa. It makes class balance so much easier since you're not making considerations for both.

 

Damage values, healing values, and effects of abilities, and talents should be entirely seperate on players in PvP combat(Or if that's too hard, in PvP open world zones/warzones), and on PvE creatures.

 

It will also allow them to create a wider variety of gear. For example, you could have a lightsaber with an amazing PvE effect, but no effect on players, or a lesser/different effect on players. Or passive armor bonuses which function only in each setting.

 

Dual talent functionalities. Dual ability functionalities. Different rulesets for stats like the above for tanks in PvP. Yes it will be a lot of work to implement, but make it happen and you'll promote a healthy environment for class balance in the years to come.

Edited March 30, 2012 by EthanThristam

Assassins have a gap closer already (which is op'd in huttball). Don't need another one.

Assassins have a gap closer already (which is op'd in huttball). Don't need another one.

 

I agree Im a balance shadow and what we need isn't another gap closer but medium armor would be nice. As a balance shadow I endorse the op's message, when I do really well in a wz which i generally do not trying to sound cocky I've just been pvping in mmo's for a very long time, I get tells all the time gg shadowtank noob, or your class is so easy shadowtank. I'm balance and I always am! This shows that not only are people dumb and really bad and dont know all class and spec mechanics at 50 and was probabaly the reason why I roflstomped them, but I hate always being called a noob shadow tank when in reallity I'm a good balance shadow. So nerf them dps tanking so then people will just shut up already, especially some of these idiots on these forums calling for shadow and sin tank nerfs in like 6 different threads

Edited March 31, 2012 by jbuschell

At the guild summit. The combat designers stated unequivocally that they believe that tanks on rated teams will not continue to wear DPS gear and will switch to tanking gear, since it makes them vulnerable to the highest damage classes in this game.

Did they seriously say this with a straight face?

As a tank shadow since day 1, I will say that my least feared class are these so called high damage classes reliant mostly on a great deal of 'white' damage ex. Sharpshooter/Saboteur Gunslinger, Marksman/Engineering Sniper, and Combat Sentinel/Carnage Marauder.

 

Other tank classes DO have issues with these classes, though. This is a problem with shadows/assassins, however. You're not exactly 'balanced' right now in pvp. I mean seriously, name one class or archetype you DO have issues with as a tank shadow/assassin in dps gear.

Edited March 31, 2012 by hadoken

Nerf Dmg but increase mitigation, and if BW completely destroys shadow tanking infil and balance needs buffs

Other tank classes DO have issues with these classes, though. This is a problem with shadows/assassins, however. You're not exactly 'balanced' right now in pvp. I mean seriously, name one class or archetype you DO have issues with as a tank shadow/assassin in dps gear.

 

I guess you are referring to PT's then? I can't speak for them since mine is only level 43 and I don't really pvp with it, but all of the listed specs are probably the least dangerous DPS classes for the JK as well.

Allow me to respond to your feedback. The comment on gap closer relates more to if they choose to keep DPS sins/shadows at the same level of damage resistance as an option and involves making the 20 second force speed movement breaker, 5 second resilience and force pull as base skills to add utility. Obviously this is not ideal, but I'm offering an alternative. To respond to the comment on this solely belonging to shadows as having an easy time against the aforementioned classes. Not so. All tanks with defensive stats take infinitely longer to bring down by a Gunslinger which I play as my primary alternate. Their problem may relate to inherently lower DPS which prolongs their fight against them and the lack of ability to always close the gap. But most of the good players of these classes do not consider white damage DPSers a threat. This holds consistent due to their base armor, mitigation, defense, shield and absorption.

No.

 

It's still unnecessarily gimp.

 

Either tanks mitigate everything at the cost of their DPS, or just let them DPS.

 

This half-and-half BS is so lame, and usually just results in unnecessary DPS/utility hits for tank classes that still get blown up by focus fire, even if it takes three GCDs instead of two.

 

I want to feel like an actual tank.

Go PvE then. Edited March 31, 2012 by Ansultares

No. And I'm sorry that you feel that way.

 

The spec is specifically built for tanking, and tanking utility. Darkness and Kinetic Combat both. And its exceptionally good at it.

 

It was never meant to supplant Deception or Infiltration as the PvP spec of choice for damage, nor Madness/Balance. That's the point. You're meant to play those specs if you want to do damage in PvP.

 

The damage in kinetic combat and darkness is not overly bursty except when you pop all cooldowns, but its too good in DPS gear as a sustained DPS with our survivability tools.

 

I don't want those tools nerfed, I want the people who want to DPS, to actually play DPS specs.

 

Do you know how many tanking assassins or shadows there were in PvP on average prior to the dark charge in Deception/Combat Trance in Infiltration nerf? Not very many. But now everyone is playing Kinetic Combat or Darkness as the Flavor of the Month spec.

 

And guess what? Most people are terrible at it, but their survivability puts them far above what other classes can do in their lifespan.

 

No, I'm not going to stay silent and say that I should be able to do amazing DPS and have some of the best survivability in the game. I care about the game, and I care about actual balance.

 

I want tank gear to be useful and balanced in PvP, and I want tank specs to be just that, actual tanks that are worthwhile in PvP.

 

I want the DPS specs to all be worth playing, and don't want any of them to feel like a third wheel when rated come around, Operatives/Scoundrels, Combat Sentinels/Carnage Marauders, Gunslingers/Snipers, and Shadow/Assassin Infiltration/Deception/Balance/Madness all need help. Some specs are addressed in the next patch, but most aren't.

 

And if we let this continue then the problem will only get worse. Tanks should not be something you should stack in rated for their DAMAGE, they should be utilized for their utility, guard/taunt and objective oriented capabilities.

 

So again I implore the developers, look into making tanking stats actually useful in PvP since most classes utilize yellow tech/force damage. Look into making DPS gear less powerful while in tanking stances. If you care about this game, its balance, and having longevity, then it needs to be done, and soon.

Edited April 1, 2012 by EthanThristam

darkness/kinetic sins working as intended. more pew-pew less qq imo.

You are looking at it the wrong way, they should reduce all damage done while in tank stance by a further xx%. Now what is better, DPS gear or tank gear?

 

The TankaSin is the most OP build in PvP to date and will be nurfed without a doubt right after 1.2 goes live because its damage is too high..far too high in light of how much it mitigates.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Cempa

You are looking at it the wrong way, they should reduce all damage done while in tank stance by a further xx%. Now what is better, DPS gear or tank gear?

 

The TankaSin is the most OP build in PvP to date and will be nurfed without a doubt right after 1.2 goes live because its damage is too high..far too high in light of how much it mitigates.

 

Is that a trick question? The more you just straight up nerf the damage, the better the DPS gear gets over the tank gear to try to make up the difference. Same reason why it was the nerfing of stance changing that lead so many Shadows to go Kinetic.

 

You want to find a way to make the DPS set less attractive to tank specs in PvP then be my guest. Straight up nerfing damage is the worst thing they could do and will just wreck the people actually using the survivor gear, which is the opposite of what people claim they want.

This is an outright terrible suggestion. Why would anyone advocate reducing the options available to tank specs? It sounds like a thinly-veiled nerfhearding post to me.

 

If you want tanks to wear tank gear in PvP you don't do that by forcing it upon them by making DPS gear worthless; you fix the problem by making the tank stats worthwhile across the board. Defensive stats should work against almost all forms of incoming damage, even if it operates in a different manner (i.e. Defense Chance gives a chance to completely avoid melee/ranged attacks and grants a flat damage reduction against Force/Tech attacks).

 

Limiting the options for tank specs not only doesn't make sense for PvP, it doesn't make sense for PvE either. Tanks still need to level, they still need to do daily quests, and they still need to run Flashpoints as DPS in groups that aren't perfect. The ability to throw on a set of DPS gear and contribute increased damage -- even if not on the level of a pure DPS -- needs to be there.

This is an outright terrible suggestion. Why would anyone advocate reducing the options available to tank specs? It sounds like a thinly-veiled nerfhearding post to me.

 

If you want tanks to wear tank gear in PvP you don't do that by forcing it upon them by making DPS gear worthless; you fix the problem by making the tank stats worthwhile across the board. Defensive stats should work against almost all forms of incoming damage, even if it operates in a different manner (i.e. Defense Chance gives a chance to completely avoid melee/ranged attacks and grants a flat damage reduction against Force/Tech attacks).

 

Limiting the options for tank specs not only doesn't make sense for PvP, it doesn't make sense for PvE either. Tanks still need to level, they still need to do daily quests, and they still need to run Flashpoints as DPS in groups that aren't perfect. The ability to throw on a set of DPS gear and contribute increased damage -- even if not on the level of a pure DPS -- needs to be there.

 

You're taking my post out of context. What I'm asking for are dual rulesets for PvE and PvP. If a tank wants to gimp themselves in PvE wearing DPS gear instead of respeccing waiting for dual specs, knock themselves out. Tank gear is useful is enough already there. I'm asking that when fighting players alone, that +power has no effect in the respective tank stances. Given that, do you still think my changes are terrible suggestions?

Wow, I am really astounded by their blindfoldedness to the issue. Regardless of stats, in a pure pvp environment, defensive stats never scale as well as offensive ones do simply because excess "tanking power" will not get you anything if your basic (read: hybrid) tanking power was good enough to keep you alive to begin with.

More damage, on the other hand, will enable you to kill the enemy quicker, which obviously always provides a benefit to your team.

 

This is why people go hybrid; their tanking skills are covered by base stats and gear well enough, and so they chose to convert their stat budget on items into damage.

 

I too believe they will cave in at some time and just nerf sins to oblivion when enough people continue to whine about it. After all, this was what made them destroy operatives.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Korevas