Malgus saw aliens as a useful tool as an addition to his new empire, not because he was a force for change but simply because they were something the empire failed to use which gave the republic an edge, he wanted to level the playing field and show his new empire as less stained by old ways, but the problem with Malgus is that he was brought up with those old ways, so he couldn't lead the new empire anywhere even if he did succeed because those old values would be part of his new empire. He needed new leadership not tainted by such things and a Sith wouldn't give up power for another willingly and Malgus is not the type to share.

He married a Twi'lek, which at the time would have been a scandal. So I wouldn't go so far as to claim that he didn't have any genuine pro-alien sentiments, beyond using them for the Empire. Of course he also murdered said wife, but because he felt the attachment was a weakness.

Vitiate and Revan should have stayed dead. So should have Malgus. Or let us change sides again so we can kill him again. Or just let us kill him and be done with Malgus -- for good this time.

I agree. BioWare has been creatively bankrupt for a looooong time now.

He married a Twi'lek, which at the time would have been a scandal. So I wouldn't go so far as to claim that he didn't have any genuine pro-alien sentiments, beyond using them for the Empire. Of course he also murdered said wife, but because he felt the attachment was a weakness.

He murdered her because he couldn't afford such weakness to other sith and because she became an ever growing thorn in his ambitions and designs even if she had no such plans on Malgus. His desires came before his wife, even though he mourned her passing, he no longer had weakness the other sith could exploit and so his rise to power was much easier.

pro-alien sentiment he might of had at one point, but he was in his 60's when he was slain on the emperors space station, when he was Veradun he may of had all those idealistic traits, but being a sith, murdering his wife are all part of the same problem, his idealism always let him down and having such a trait as a sith never helped him. It is more than likely he changed after his wife died, but still his ambitions were always his fiirst priority.

The simple truth is that BioWare has been relying on gimmick writing like this for a while now and it was already getting old. Malgus is one thing cause we already knew that he was knocked off the side at the end of the original fight and this was a clear indication he'd be back at some point. So in this particular case I don't have an issue with it but overall I wish they would stop using this. I see it as lazy, uninspired writing for the most part.

Mass Effect Andromeda was also an example of how they take death so very casually. I mean your main character dies 2 or 3 times and at some point it's like "who cares?". That exactly is the point. Now when I kill a powerful enemy, it means little to me because chances are they'll bring him/her back at some point.

At the same time they also kill off characters in terrible ways, undeserved often. Point in case would be Vaylin who in KotFE was just annoying and one-dimensional, but then in KotET gets an actual personality and just when you think she's a cool character it's over and they confirm that's it for her.

Problem is there that they wasted potential of a character they just started developing and now if they ever do decided to bring her back it'll be against their own words and it'll likely not make much sense either.

I mean, does anyone really believe we've seen the last of Vitiate? I'm not so sure.

When death becomes a gimmick, it becomes meaningless. And when death becomes meaningless, our choices become less meaningful as well because the consequences are changeable.

I really hope they stay away from the usual gimmicks and do some more interesting writing for 6.0. A lot of people say that BioWare was always great at writing good stories but actually they were great at writing good, compelling characters. Used to be. I hope they get better at it again. I have more faith in Austin for that right now than Edmonton anyway.

I think the anger that came when all existing companions were removed at the start of 4.0 tells you that people really got attached to a lot of those companions but the continued demand for companion returns over the years it took to get them back also tells me that new companions didn't make such an impact. But, I have to say that Ossus does make me feel hopeful for 6.0 because there are some characters there already that interest me.

I just hope they focus more on decent/good stories with great characters in them because it's the characters that convince you and bring you in, more than the story itself. When a character dies I want to be sad about it. That doesn't happen much in BioWare games these days... because it's gotten too contrived. So fingers crossed.

I really didn't expect to give this game another chance because the list of things that needed to change just got too long and well, they are actually doing so many things that are on my list that I had to admit I was wrong. But if they make the characters interesting and not just cheap tricks as their main writing tools, that'd really be an amazing thing.

I've never for moment believed that the emperor is dead and from what i could tell, he was flushed out of the commanders head during the hollowing out stage and disappeared, but there was a massive shift in the force strong enough to almost knock a few people off their feet. I always believed that the emperor travelled across the galaxy to the last anchor, his original host body, Tenebrae, and he was forced back into that body and left to slumber for a bit, with a fraction of the power he once possessed.

I mentioned host body because i'm not convinced that the emperor was Tenebrae, but rather a boy who was hollowed out for the emperor. A vessel that the emperor kept and one he imbued special powers to to keep it from aging by binding it to his will with the unfortunate consequence of when he returns to the body he won't sense or feel anything any more.

Iokath tempered my skeptism a bit on the emperors origins and i suspect strongly that he was either originally an Iokath ruler or had a voice in those people and was the one who triggered a massive genocide by machine devices so he could feed off that death. I believe the individual you saw on the chair when Theron was collecting data on weapons tech and the discovery of such dangerous tech, this was either the emperor himself or his voice who triggered things world-wide.

A few coincidences i don't like that also tie into the emperor, the old gods, the abandoned eternal fleet, skytroopers,scorpio and how the star cabal had access to it and any ancient secrets the droid had over the centuries, including iokath. Zildrog originally from Iokath moved to Nathema and Ziost. It all sort of ties into each other that proves there is some link there with the emperor and a potential timeline.

I just can't see how such an old being like the emperor wouldn't have a plan in place in case things went sour. For all his show, the emperor always had a finality to his performances, always a plan within a plan.

The simple truth is that BioWare has been relying on gimmick writing like this for a while now and it was already getting old. Malgus is one thing cause we already knew that he was knocked off the side at the end of the original fight and this was a clear indication he'd be back at some point. So in this particular case I don't have an issue with it but overall I wish they would stop using this. I see it as lazy, uninspired writing for the most part.

 

Mass Effect Andromeda was also an example of how they take death so very casually. I mean your main character dies 2 or 3 times and at some point it's like "who cares?". That exactly is the point. Now when I kill a powerful enemy, it means little to me because chances are they'll bring him/her back at some point.

 

At the same time they also kill off characters in terrible ways, undeserved often. Point in case would be Vaylin who in KotFE was just annoying and one-dimensional, but then in KotET gets an actual personality and just when you think she's a cool character it's over and they confirm that's it for her.

 

Problem is there that they wasted potential of a character they just started developing and now if they ever do decided to bring her back it'll be against their own words and it'll likely not make much sense either.

 

I mean, does anyone really believe we've seen the last of Vitiate? I'm not so sure.

 

When death becomes a gimmick, it becomes meaningless. And when death becomes meaningless, our choices become less meaningful as well because the consequences are changeable.

 

I really hope they stay away from the usual gimmicks and do some more interesting writing for 6.0. A lot of people say that BioWare was always great at writing good stories but actually they were great at writing good, compelling characters. Used to be. I hope they get better at it again. I have more faith in Austin for that right now than Edmonton anyway.

 

I think the anger that came when all existing companions were removed at the start of 4.0 tells you that people really got attached to a lot of those companions but the continued demand for companion returns over the years it took to get them back also tells me that new companions didn't make such an impact. But, I have to say that Ossus does make me feel hopeful for 6.0 because there are some characters there already that interest me.

 

I just hope they focus more on decent/good stories with great characters in them because it's the characters that convince you and bring you in, more than the story itself. When a character dies I want to be sad about it. That doesn't happen much in BioWare games these days... because it's gotten too contrived. So fingers crossed.

 

I really didn't expect to give this game another chance because the list of things that needed to change just got too long and well, they are actually doing so many things that are on my list that I had to admit I was wrong. But if they make the characters interesting and not just cheap tricks as their main writing tools, that'd really be an amazing thing.

Unless there is more BioWare is hiding, 6.0 seems....brief from a story point. Not a ton of character development happening. More like a setup ala Forged Alliances. That said, there are elements to it that show the writing is greatly improved and that they are fully ready to give the overall story class specific flavor again, which can go a long way in the future...

That's about all I can say, and honestly, I could be completely wrong. Bioware is playing this one close to the vest for Onslaught...

Unless there is more BioWare is hiding, 6.0 seems....brief from a story point. Not a ton of character development happening. More like a setup ala Forged Alliances. That said, there are elements to it that show the writing is greatly improved and that they are fully ready to give the overall story class specific flavor again, which can go a long way in the future...

 

That's about all I can say, and honestly, I could be completely wrong. Bioware is playing this one close to the vest for Onslaught...

Yeah I'm not sure if they plan on doing a lot of story or just keep releasing things bit by bit as they have been doing. Overall the quality has gone up and that's good. I just hope they use explorable planets more than just FPs. I find the FPs less interesting to revisit and it feels constraining because it's just the one path to follow and the one story mission to follow. I do still like the vanilla style best because it adds more than just story. Ossus is a lot better in that respect than Umbara, Copero and Nathema. Umbara is just a bugfest but the other two I quite like, I just don't like revisiting them much because it's that FP format. Though I will say that the new decorations in all of those places are a big plus for me as well but I really would've loved Copero and Nathema to be explorable planets with dailies and other activities as well and not just the FP. That format of being able to go to a planet, do some quests and have some banter in chat, just works better for me personally I guess.

Yeah I'm not sure if they plan on doing a lot of story or just keep releasing things bit by bit as they have been doing. Overall the quality has gone up and that's good. I just hope they use explorable planets more than just FPs. I find the FPs less interesting to revisit and it feels constraining because it's just the one path to follow and the one story mission to follow. I do still like the vanilla style best because it adds more than just story. Ossus is a lot better in that respect than Umbara, Copero and Nathema. Umbara is just a bugfest but the other two I quite like, I just don't like revisiting them much because it's that FP format. Though I will say that the new decorations in all of those places are a big plus for me as well but I really would've loved Copero and Nathema to be explorable planets with dailies and other activities as well and not just the FP. That format of being able to go to a planet, do some quests and have some banter in chat, just works better for me personally I guess.

I agree. A do once in a while is ok, but needing to complete a battery of fps being used as a story stand in like forged alliances can be a slog. Oasis was superior in that regard.

He married a Twi'lek, which at the time would have been a scandal. So I wouldn't go so far as to claim that he didn't have any genuine pro-alien sentiments, beyond using them for the Empire. Of course he also murdered said wife, but because he felt the attachment was a weakness.

Sorry, just thought that this needed a clarification: Malgus did not marry Eleena Daru. She was his lover, not a wife, whom he eventually killed since she was a weakness on him that people could use against him.

Sorry, just thought that this needed a clarification: Malgus did not marry Eleena Daru. She was his lover, not a wife, whom he eventually killed since she was a weakness on him that people could use against him.

Regardless, one gets the feeling it wasn't a shallow relationship.

The issue with BW or more specifically SWTOR writing is the one dimensional light/dark kill/imprison option and pandering to players that want to be able to kill every character with more than 2 spoken lines, which makes every introduced character essentially a throwaway.

A couple content cycles of this "philosophy" has left a narrative wasteland. I don't think the vast majority of players can even name the current faction leaders. Contrast that to WoW and TOR as the supposed story focused game falls woefully short.

Bringing back Malgus, one of the few characters that ever stuck around enough to resonate with players, is an attempt to paper over the cracks. I sure hope being forced to scrap the bottom of the barrel with Malgus, Gnost Dural and the mutated NPC lady from the starting zone the writers have realised something has to change. They need to build consistent narrative with characters that stick around long enough so the players can build a connection with them. Alas I'm more inclined to believe they'll cave to people asking over and over and rub out Lana next. There's always C2-N2 to carry the narrative torch I guess.

I've got to disagree with some of the posters here. As having played for a long time and having read the forums back in the day, there were many who were disappointed when Malgus was originally killed off. Many at the time expressed the wish that their characters could have joined him, in reforming the Empire. (My LS sith among them). Thus, at least one of my characters was very happy to have him return and to fight at his side, rather than in opposition to him.

(He did not become a saboteur, he stayed allied to the Empire, although he is light-side, he still follows the ways of the Sith (as interpreted by Kaleth-Ur). He is one to change the empire from within rather than try to destroy it, though.

The issue with BW or more specifically SWTOR writing is the one dimensional light/dark kill/imprison option and pandering to players that want to be able to kill every character with more than 2 spoken lines, which makes every introduced character essentially a throwaway.

 

A couple content cycles of this "philosophy" has left a narrative wasteland. I don't think the vast majority of players can even name the current faction leaders. Contrast that to WoW and TOR as the supposed story focused game falls woefully short.

 

Bringing back Malgus, one of the few characters that ever stuck around enough to resonate with players, is an attempt to paper over the cracks. I sure hope being forced to scrap the bottom of the barrel with Malgus, Gnost Dural and the mutated NPC lady from the starting zone the writers have realised something has to change. They need to build consistent narrative with characters that stick around long enough so the players can build a connection with them. Alas I'm more inclined to believe they'll cave to people asking over and over and rub out Lana next. There's always C2-N2 to carry the narrative torch I guess.

I think I get what you mean. This game has never shied away from letting you take down big bad enemies, but if it happens too much and too easily, it can dilute things to the point that it's difficult to believe anyone is a real threat.

So far, Vitiate is the only character I can think of who has a lot of buildup. And he pulled that off by being super mega colossally powerful bad guy. I would like to see a little more slow-burn stuff. It makes it all the more gratifying when you reach the conclusion of the conflict. Some of the class stories have enemies that are sort of in the realm of slow-burn. Though due to the "on to the next enemy" nature of it, they can be a bit forgettable. And their send-offs tend to be kind of abrupt, like... oh that was it. Ok. You won.

The issue with BW or more specifically SWTOR writing is the one dimensional light/dark kill/imprison option and pandering to players that want to be able to kill every character with more than 2 spoken lines, which makes every introduced character essentially a throwaway.

 

A couple content cycles of this "philosophy" has left a narrative wasteland. I don't think the vast majority of players can even name the current faction leaders. Contrast that to WoW and TOR as the supposed story focused game falls woefully short.

 

Bringing back Malgus, one of the few characters that ever stuck around enough to resonate with players, is an attempt to paper over the cracks. I sure hope being forced to scrap the bottom of the barrel with Malgus, Gnost Dural and the mutated NPC lady from the starting zone the writers have realised something has to change. They need to build consistent narrative with characters that stick around long enough so the players can build a connection with them. Alas I'm more inclined to believe they'll cave to people asking over and over and rub out Lana next. There's always C2-N2 to carry the narrative torch I guess.

Agreed. Death has lost any true impact in the game because they've caved so much to people screaming for kill options and have killed off almost every character of interest. I completely expect at this point that anyone they introduce or elevate to a position of authority is going to be killed off. Malora and Gnost-Dural didn't even make it through one story segment without getting killed. I'm sorry to see Jakarro and his droid back for 6.0 because I'm sure they'll find a reason to knock them off. Anyone else they introduce for 6.0, likewise.

It means that after a while one stops emotionally investing in characters because you already know Bioware's going to yank them away at the first opportunity. And if they don't, people will howl that they're "sick of the character" until Bioware caves and kills them off.

Likewise, the "wait, he's not dead!" trope has been run into the ground. Does it mitigate the constant bloodbath if the character comes back later? Not really. There used to be a joke among Marvel comics readers that there have only been like two characters that Marvel has ever definitively killed, because almost everyone comes back. It hasn't gotten quite that bad with Bioware, but almost. Vaylin, Senya, SCORPIO, Revan, Theron, Darth Marr, Vitiate? At this point I'd not be at all surprised to see Bioware shoehorn any or all of them back in.

I think I get what you mean. This game has never shied away from letting you take down big bad enemies, but if it happens too much and too easily, it can dilute things to the point that it's difficult to believe anyone is a real threat.

 

So far, Vitiate is the only character I can think of who has a lot of buildup. And he pulled that off by being super mega colossally powerful bad guy. I would like to see a little more slow-burn stuff. It makes it all the more gratifying when you reach the conclusion of the conflict. Some of the class stories have enemies that are sort of in the realm of slow-burn. Though due to the "on to the next enemy" nature of it, they can be a bit forgettable. And their send-offs tend to be kind of abrupt, like... oh that was it. Ok. You won.

Yup.

Agreed.

Right now, there are only two characters that are still alive on the Empire side that can fill the "emperor" role right now, already have a go in Malgus. Jadus is the only one left who would have the immediate gravitas to pull off a Slow Burn big bad. The Empire needs stability. He's the perfect choice.

I've got to disagree with some of the posters here. As having played for a long time and having read the forums back in the day, there were many who were disappointed when Malgus was originally killed off. Many at the time expressed the wish that their characters could have joined him, in reforming the Empire. (My LS sith among them). Thus, at least one of my characters was very happy to have him return and to fight at his side, rather than in opposition to him.

 

 

(He did not become a saboteur, he stayed allied to the Empire, although he is light-side, he still follows the ways of the Sith (as interpreted by Kaleth-Ur). He is one to change the empire from within rather than try to destroy it, though.

I think Malgus is the exception to the rule for me if you will. It was set up properly and I'm fine with his return. But the overall trend to over-use character deaths as gimmicks for story telling is a bad trend. In some cases, when done properly, it really can work well in a story, but they just use it too much. I can still appreciate the Malgus situation but I really do wish they stop using it as much as they have and not just in SWTOR.

It just seems a sign of lesser quality in writing when you see an increase in contrived emotional pulls and deus ex machina solutions. It's good to have unexpected things, twists in stories but I also want them to feel warranted and not contrived. It's a fantasy space setting but even within that setting there exists logic and things that you can trace back and see how it was building up to something you just didn't see coming.

It's the application of mystery that they've lost touch with as well as writing interesting characters. Now I will say again that SWTOR has turned a page recently and it's looking up, so I'm hopeful here. But I really do hope they can create a sense of mystery in the story which makes you care about what happens next and create depth to characters that makes you care about them and what happens to them. That's what gets me excited in a BioWare game or used to anyway.

Fewer caricatures, fewer dei ex machina and fewer deaths for the sake of deaths that aren't really deaths after all type of stuff, but actually interesting writing that builds up as the story progresses. Mystery is not a binary thing where first you don't know it and then you do. It should be a process where you get clues and start seeing a picture develop over time and blows you away when you get to that point where it all falls together.

Anyways, you get my point I guess. I think Malgus was handled properly in this respect but he arrives on the back of a number of cheap ressurrections.

I think Malgus is the exception to the rule for me if you will. It was set up properly and I'm fine with his return. But the overall trend to over-use character deaths as gimmicks for story telling is a bad trend. In some cases, when done properly, it really can work well in a story, but they just use it too much. I can still appreciate the Malgus situation but I really do wish they stop using it as much as they have and not just in SWTOR.

 

It just seems a sign of lesser quality in writing when you see an increase in contrived emotional pulls and deus ex machina solutions. It's good to have unexpected things, twists in stories but I also want them to feel warranted and not contrived. It's a fantasy space setting but even within that setting there exists logic and things that you can trace back and see how it was building up to something you just didn't see coming.

 

It's the application of mystery that they've lost touch with as well as writing interesting characters. Now I will say again that SWTOR has turned a page recently and it's looking up, so I'm hopeful here. But I really do hope they can create a sense of mystery in the story which makes you care about what happens next and create depth to characters that makes you care about them and what happens to them. That's what gets me excited in a BioWare game or used to anyway.

 

Fewer caricatures, fewer dei ex machina and fewer deaths for the sake of deaths that aren't really deaths after all type of stuff, but actually interesting writing that builds up as the story progresses. Mystery is not a binary thing where first you don't know it and then you do. It should be a process where you get clues and start seeing a picture develop over time and blows you away when you get to that point where it all falls together.

 

Anyways, you get my point I guess. I think Malgus was handled properly in this respect but he arrives on the back of a number of cheap ressurrections.

Agreed. Malgus was handled fine.

(He did not become a saboteur, he stayed allied to the Empire, although he is light-side, he still follows the ways of the Sith (as interpreted by Kaleth-Ur). He is one to change the empire from within rather than try to destroy it, though.

Malgus was never light side and the darkside corruption is clearly evident on his body as well. Even before he had the respirator mask attrached to his face, Malgus was clearly full of hate and darkness. Even at his older age before he died, he remained committed to his own path; his own desires. Ilum was a flashpoint in Malgus's life: he tried to usurp control of the dark council by claiming it was dissolved and asking all sith to join him in building a new empire where they can follow their passions.

This would contradict your statement that he was light side and he was loyal to the empire. Of course Malgus died out on the station because the republic and empire couldn't tolerate this "new empire" from rising and even temporarily banded together to stop it. Now Malgus returned to the galaxy at large and he is still just as violent as ever, with a few upgrades to boot.

The empire changed somewhat through Acina, she allowed aliens to be released from the shackles, at least those who showed enough talent, and put them to work as agents for the empire rather than wasting what they could offer being locked up in chains. Alien recruitment is more common than before. Remember what acina mentioned: the empire has to change to survive and acknowledging weakness is the first step in becoming stronger. Now if Malgus has whispered into her ear about change or not after his lazarus project? i have no idea, so i'm leaving that open-ended.

Malgus was never light side and the darkside corruption is clearly evident on his body as well.

I think the person you quoted was refering to their own character when saying said character was LS but still loyal to the Empire.