In game it's clear that relationships are forbidden in the Jedi Order

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lien-Tsai_Qel-Droma

This woman is a Jedi master and mother both, and lived 350-400 years before the game

So when and why did attachments and such become forbidden?

Nomi Sunrider is a better example. She was untrained, married to an active Jedi, had a child with him, and then began her training after his murder. There are a couple more examples of Jedi relationships during the Great Sith War.

As in the Revan novel it's made clear that his marriage is looked down upon by the Order. Then by PT era we know their stance on it by that time.

This was discussed a little back and I forgot all the answers. Sometime in the 45 years between Great Sith War and Revan the Order became stricter regarding this rule to being very very strict about it much later. Emotional bonds were too risky and unpredictable.

Take note though that during the Great Sith War these Jedi having relationships appear to be in the minority. Even in the PT era, Ki-Adi-Mundi had several wives and children but he's an extreme exception as his Cerean males are rare.

Nomi Sunrider is a better example. She was untrained, married to an active Jedi, had a child with him, and then began her training after his murder. There are a couple more examples of Jedi relationships during the Great Sith War.

 

As in the Revan novel it's made clear that his marriage is looked down upon by the Order. Then by PT era we know their stance on it by that time.

 

This was discussed a little back and I forgot all the answers. Sometime in the 45 years between Great Sith War and Revan the Order became stricter regarding this rule to being very very strict about it much later. Emotional bonds were too risky and unpredictable.

 

Take note though that during the Great Sith War these Jedi having relationships appear to be in the minority. Even in the PT era, Ki-Adi-Mundi had several wives and children but he's an extreme exception as his Cerean males are rare.

Thank you for the info, now i understand And i don't understand how i could forget about Nomi.

I feel a certain degree of frustration with discussions like this, because of the innate contrariness of the stance involved.

If you want to be a Jedi, then you should commit to being a Jedi. It's firmly established that being a Jedi involves personal sacrifice and commitment. The commitment is to the Order and the Republic. The sacrifice is binding personal attachment.

People like the lightsabers. They like the powers. They like the authority. They like all the perks that come with being a Jedi, except personal sacrifice and self-discipline. You add those two ingredients to the mix, and all of a sudden the council is an archaic collection of short-sided old dummies who have no right telling you how to live your life, and blah-blah-blah.

I guess people just like playing the part of the arrogant anti-hero who knows better than society who raised him, gave him opportunities to better himself, and asked for nothing in return except loyalty.

I feel a certain degree of frustration with discussions like this, because of the innate contrariness of the stance involved.

 

If you want to be a Jedi, then you should commit to being a Jedi. It's firmly established that being a Jedi involves personal sacrifice and commitment. The commitment is to the Order and the Republic. The sacrifice is binding personal attachment.

 

People like the lightsabers. They like the powers. They like the authority. They like all the perks that come with being a Jedi, except personal sacrifice and self-discipline. You add those two ingredients to the mix, and all of a sudden the council is an archaic collection of short-sided old dummies who have no right telling you how to live your life, and blah-blah-blah.

 

I guess people just like playing the part of the arrogant anti-hero who knows better than society who raised him, gave him opportunities to better himself, and asked for nothing in return except loyalty.

I feel a certain degree of frustration with discussions like this, because of the innate contrariness of the stance involved.

 

If you want to be a Jedi, then you should commit to being a Jedi. It's firmly established that being a Jedi involves personal sacrifice and commitment. The commitment is to the Order and the Republic. The sacrifice is binding personal attachment.

 

People like the lightsabers. They like the powers. They like the authority. They like all the perks that come with being a Jedi, except personal sacrifice and self-discipline. You add those two ingredients to the mix, and all of a sudden the council is an archaic collection of short-sided old dummies who have no right telling you how to live your life, and blah-blah-blah.

 

I guess people just like playing the part of the arrogant anti-hero who knows better than society who raised him, gave him opportunities to better himself, and asked for nothing in return except loyalty.

I understand where you're coming from, and agree that a lot of people who are critics of the "attachment rule" do legitimately fall into the category of people who just want to have their cake and eat it too.

BUT, there is a different between loyalty and blind loyalty. You can support an organization overall, but still not agree with every single aspect of their philosophy. And there can reasonably be different degrees of how far you're going to go in opposition to the parts you disagree with.

There is nothing inconsistent with saying "I love my country/religion/organization" and at the same time saying "I disagree with my country/religion/organization doing [X]."

In some cases that disagreement will drive a person to say "I cannot, in good conscience remain a part of this group as long as that aspect is a part of it" in other cases that may lead a person to say "I do not agree with this aspect, so I will engage in civil disobedience (willfully disobeying it) to oppose it" or it may just lead to a person saying "I do not agree with this aspect, I will speak out against it being the rule and call for it to be changed, but as long as it remains the rule I will acquiesce and follow it out of respect for the organization as a whole."

All three are understandable and realistic responses.

I feel a certain degree of frustration with discussions like this, because of the innate contrariness of the stance involved.

 

If you want to be a Jedi, then you should commit to being a Jedi. It's firmly established that being a Jedi involves personal sacrifice and commitment. The commitment is to the Order and the Republic. The sacrifice is binding personal attachment.

 

People like the lightsabers. They like the powers. They like the authority. They like all the perks that come with being a Jedi, except personal sacrifice and self-discipline. You add those two ingredients to the mix, and all of a sudden the council is an archaic collection of short-sided old dummies who have no right telling you how to live your life, and blah-blah-blah.

 

I guess people just like playing the part of the arrogant anti-hero who knows better than society who raised him, gave him opportunities to better himself, and asked for nothing in return except loyalty.

Where in the novels is Nomi a arrogant anti-hero? Luke? Jaina? those 3 (among others) are as self sacrificing as they come

I feel a certain degree of frustration with discussions like this, because of the innate contrariness of the stance involved.

 

If you want to be a Jedi, then you should commit to being a Jedi. It's firmly established that being a Jedi involves personal sacrifice and commitment. The commitment is to the Order and the Republic. The sacrifice is binding personal attachment.

 

People like the lightsabers. They like the powers. They like the authority. They like all the perks that come with being a Jedi, except personal sacrifice and self-discipline. You add those two ingredients to the mix, and all of a sudden the council is an archaic collection of short-sided old dummies who have no right telling you how to live your life, and blah-blah-blah.

 

I guess people just like playing the part of the arrogant anti-hero who knows better than society who raised him, gave him opportunities to better himself, and asked for nothing in return except loyalty.

Now first of all The Expanded Universe has been declared non Canon. BUT if you have a problem with it the unclear rules of attachment you should do some research there as it's the only place that offers some kind of explanation. The Jedi order we experience in the prequels marks the end of the Old Republics Golden age, the ways of the Jedi order you are most familiar with comes from that time period. The final battle of Ruusan marks the beginning of that age, and the events leading up to that made the order set the firm rules you are the most familiar with, recruitment of younglings only and the no attachment rule. As why there came a rule of no attachment isn't only that envy is a temptation to the darkside but offsprings off two force sensitives will post a possible darkside threat, there as you should look up the matter of 'The Lost' and 'The Fallen'.

Relationships and marriage are not forbidden, they are highly discouraged. If you go through the male JK and Kira relationship you will learn several things.

You'll learn several more with the female consular and Felix Iresso relationship.

It can be played purely light sided and with the complete blessing of the order. Iresso has to answer a bunch of questions about what he thinks the relationship is and where it's going, but he also comes to an understanding of why and even thinks that it's ultimately helpful.

I feel a certain degree of frustration with discussions like this, because of the innate contrariness of the stance involved.

 

If you want to be a Jedi, then you should commit to being a Jedi. It's firmly established that being a Jedi involves personal sacrifice and commitment. The commitment is to the Order and the Republic. The sacrifice is binding personal attachment.

 

People like the lightsabers. They like the powers. They like the authority. They like all the perks that come with being a Jedi, except personal sacrifice and self-discipline. You add those two ingredients to the mix, and all of a sudden the council is an archaic collection of short-sided old dummies who have no right telling you how to live your life, and blah-blah-blah.

 

I guess people just like playing the part of the arrogant anti-hero who knows better than society who raised him, gave him opportunities to better himself, and asked for nothing in return except loyalty.

I agree with this. The Jedi are a monastic order, and their no marriage rule is one of the requirements for joining it. You are to focus on being a Jedi and the responsibilities of being one when you join.

Also emotions are not discarded by the Jedi. After all obi-wan tells Luke to "Trust your feelings, Luke"

I agree with this. The Jedi are a monastic order, and their no marriage rule is one of the requirements for joining it. You are to focus on being a Jedi and the responsibilities of being one when you join.

 

Also emotions are not discarded by the Jedi. After all obi-wan tells Luke to "Trust your feelings, Luke"

But most of the time people do not join the Jedi Order because they want to be part of something. They are, for lack of a better word, recruited at a young age and then indoctrinated. (And it is indoctrination) The younglings aren't really given a choice in the matter.

Yes, there are instances where older individuals are allowed to train but those seem to be the exception and not the rule.

Also, I think your mixing terms when you compare emotions and feelings. When Obi-wan tell him to trust his feelings he is more than likely referring to his instincts. Love, hate, and joy are all emotions but aren't instincts.

But most of the time people do not join the Jedi Order because they want to be part of something. They are, for lack of a better word, recruited at a young age and then indoctrinated. (And it is indoctrination) The younglings aren't really given a choice in the matter.

 

Yes, there are instances where older individuals are allowed to train but those seem to be the exception and not the rule.

 

Also, I think your mixing terms when you compare emotions and feelings. When Obi-wan tell him to trust his feelings he is more than likely referring to his instincts. Love, hate, and joy are all emotions but aren't instincts.

Obi-Wan loved Anakin like a brother, he was saddened over the loss of his Varactyl, he put aside his emotions to fight Anakin....so yeah...Jedi can have feelings and emotions, they just can't let them be in control.

Here's my take on it, but bear in mind I'm no lore expert. I've only watched the movies, done extensive reading on Wookiepedia (like...EXTENSIVE!) but have never picked up a novel or comic. If I am ignorant to something specific, feel free to point it out - but I reserve the right to dissect/debate all the same.

My understanding is that this is a point of active debate among the Jedi, but that the "in favor of relationships" are very much the minority, or at least they seem to be presented as the minority. There are a few that have them, and there are a few that harbor feelings for others, and there are more yet that have said feelings but do not act on them. And all of this is fine, nobody (at least I'm not) really says that all Jedi should up and get married. Even if it were more accepted, I still feel that most Jedi would likely elect a life free of deep emotional attachments.

I get the self-sacrifice argument - really, I do, but I feel that Jedi are self-sacrificing as it is. They do not generally seek or receive vast wealth. Dooku, for example, chose not to inherit his family's fortune until after leaving the Jedi order. That was a sacrifice he made, in my opinion - he could have been loaded rich!

They also thrust themselves into danger and always place the fate of the galaxy and its people before themselves. This is not, in my opinion (and several Jedi, I'm sure), mutually exclusive toward loving someone on a personal level. You can do both, and the Jedi order would have been better off, I think, grooming people from the young age they're trained, to find balance within this. How many stories have you read where a loved one dies, the one left behind swears revenge, but decides on a greater purpose because it's what their dead loved one would want? (Plenty still go for revenge, but you get what I'm saying, hopefully.)

From the -original- incarnation of the Jedi code, too, it seems more about balance to me. There's none of this "There is no ____, there is only ____" black and white view of everything. I interpret the original to basically acknowledge that certain things exist and obstacles come up in life, but that you find balance within them, and overcome said obstacles. The most relevant line here I suppose would be "Emotion, yet peace." To me it acknowledges the existence of emotion, that they are a thing and you can have feelings for a person. But that you do not let them dominate and dictate you, and you still strive toward an ultimate goal of peace where emotion still exists.

Could break down the rest of the code the same way. "Ignorance, yet knowledge" not outright rejecting ignorance/ignorant persons, but acknowledging that it exists in the galaxy, and trying to rise above it through knowledge, education, wisdom, debate, etc. "Passion, yet serenity" - passion exists, but same as before, not letting it dominate and rule you. Not the same as outright saying NOPE, EVER EVER IN A THOUSAND YEARS! "Chaos, yet harmony" - chaos is everywhere in the galaxy, yet despite seemingly overwhelmingly odds, still striving to create harmony both within yourself and for others, as best you can. "Death, yet the Force" - death is a factor; people die. This to me is about accepting that fact, and embracing it, not feeling overwhelmed by loss as people (as Yoda put it) "become one with the force". Really, to me, everything is about -balance-. It is not meant to be black and white, and I feel the re-writing of the code (to its form in SWTOR, that is) does it the injustice of making it very black and white and goes against the nature of its origin, and it's something my own Jedi would often point out - that its original form felt more enlightened, "there is no ____, only ____" embraces ignorance and black&white rather than enlightenment and balance. Which is ironic, because one of the lines is directly about ignorance.

(as a note, this is not a criticism of Bioware or anything of the sort - this is purely from a lore standpoint and I am saying the choice, by the Jedi, to rewrite the code did its original form injustice. People make mistakes.)

When it comes down to it, I think that in the some of the cases even during the more strict years, I think it was a matter of while frowned on, no Jedi would really go to the extent of persecuting someone, stopping them by force, arresting them, or generally exiling them from society. Much as they could unintentionally make people feel like crap for having feelings at times, they wouldn't really rail against it so hard that it might turn someone into hatred and make an enemy of them. Everyone has their own path to make - and so long as they're not outright hurting people, I don't see them getting hardcore about it, though certainly uncomfortable - maybe at most politely asking them to step down from the order, and even that I think would only occur during especially strict time periods.

Obi-Wan loved Anakin like a brother, he was saddened over the loss of his Varactyl, he put aside his emotions to fight Anakin....so yeah...Jedi can have feelings and emotions, they just can't let them be in control.

Agreed!

Obi-Wan loved Anakin like a brother, he was saddened over the loss of his Varactyl, he put aside his emotions to fight Anakin....so yeah...Jedi can have feelings and emotions, they just can't let them be in control.

I totally agree with you. I was just pointing out that a lot of times when people, or characters, are talking about feelings they are really referring to instincts and not emotions.