It's extraordinarily difficult to keep track of what all the mobs in the pull do when you're hitting a single ability every second and a half! I'm glad 1/4 of every group is gifted enough to know how it all works by virtue of rolling a class that can queue as a tank and choosing to do so!

 

Seriously, being a tank doesn't make someone not be a "tunnel visioned monkey". Being a dps doesn't mean someone is too dumb to know how mechanics work. Get over yourself. If you're in a group with 3 random people and assume you're the best player because you have a little shield next to your picture, that's pretty sad.

 

Would the retarded response to my post be coincidental? Or ironic?

 

I mean, he illustrates the entitlement-driven huge-ego I expect of bad tanks to a T.

 

When did people decide that tank = defacto leader? Tanks can run instances for the first time, just like anyone else can, and the last thing I want is to have to follow the directions of someone who doesn't know what the hell they're doing.

 

Besides which, the idea that tank=leader is just insulting when you consider the fact that people play not only different characters, but different roles with the same character! My "tank" can turn into a "tunnel-vision monkey" -dps with a few clicks of my mouse very, very easily. But respeccing my toon does nothing to change the fact that I know most of the flash points cold.

 

I'll just reiterate: Being the tank does NOT make you the leader.

 

Leading the group makes you the leader.

Actually I would prefer if in a 4 man group anyone can ready check, just like how anyone can mark targets. Only when you go to an ops should there be a distinction.

 

Most people are smart about ready checks. I have never been spammed by it by anyone, in any other game I have played. And if you recall anyone in a regular group in WoW can ready check.

 

Contrary to what people are saying, it is not just an AFK check, it is to ensure that everyone is ready. even with four people, I hate that I have to type "is everyone ready" and wait for a response back from the other 3 in chat. It has happened, especially after a wipe, and trying to reexplain the fights.

 

While current content is pretty faceroll, even with a bad player or two, there was a time when it wasnt so easy, and you actually had to be careful and do things correctly. Try to remember back longer than just 1 month ago... The OP raises a valid point, and with new FP content coming up which will not be so faceroll, letting anyone in the group be able to readycheck will be helpful.

 

I get the feeling that everyone else complaining at the OP about this either A: Never experienced FP content when it was hard. or B: Has forgotten what that was like. Even LI when it came out was a pain in the butt. It was still a pain even as recently as a few months ago, when you had people that did not know what they were doing. I remember wiping a number of times on all of the bosses in that instance, and some of those wipes were because of pulling too soon, before everyone knew what they were doing. Read Check would have solved that excuse since by saying you are ready you are suggesting you have no further questions and understand fully what you are doing. So if you wipe the group then you better have a pretty good reason why you failed.

My playstyle and thinking processes do not require people agree with me. They usually come to see things my way. Some sooner, some later; depending on their intelectual and cognitive abilities. In regards of your "douch-tank vibe" comment, let me clear it up for you: I'm not in the business of taking ****, especially on my free, pleasure, time. What you call "douche vibe" is actually a healthy attitude towards ***** being thrown at oneself. That said, you'd call me a "douche-healer" when I'm healing.

 

Stay frosty.

xoxo, slafko

 

Good luck with winning this game!

 

I hope I never ever ever meet anyone like you in real life or play with you or anyone like you in this game ever.

I hope I never ever ever meet anyone like you in real life or play with you or anyone like you in this game ever.

 

Same here. I'm not a fan of door-mats.

Edited April 3, 2013 by slafko

*facepalm* It is not needed (there were fp's completed before this tool was implemented ) but it is better than having to write Everybody rdy? and wait for a + or sth

 

Ah, so now all of a sudden RC is not needed? I knew you'd come to see things my way eventually.

Yay! The entitlement has started!

Would you be so kind and elaborate this statement?

 

Tanks aren't group leader. They're the tank. This goes double for TOR as compared to more traditional MMOs like WoW because the only reason you need a tank is for bosses. With DPS as capable of off tanking as they are, and because of how enemy scaling works, all Tanks really are most of the time is a DPS that walks through a pull in reverse order.

Rule #1 is "Follow the tank". So yes, that makes the tank the leader of the group. They decide the pace, the aggro and the positioning of the group.

 

Group leader is whoever wants to lead the group. If it's the healer, then you go when the healers tells you to. If it's a DPS, you go when the DPS tells you to. If you're the tank AND you happen to be the leader THEN (and only then) do you get to tell the rest of the group what to do.

 

Not before, and most definitely not by default.

You're proving my point by blatantly mixing up the roulette known as "random leadership assignement form the GF" with "and experienced player sharing that experience with a less experienced tank".

 

Leading and tanking are two separate activities.

No, they're not. A good tank leads, the bad one runs around like a headless chicken.

If you want RC that badly, just ask for a leader.. if you actually talk to people in your group, I'm sure they will understand.

unless all interactions you have with GF group is 'enter, do fp,leave' and you need a RC tool to do interactions for you....

Ah, so now all of a sudden RC is not needed? I knew you'd come to see things my way eventually.

 

It's a QoL improvement not a needed thing.

And good luck getting your group to vote kick the tank.

You will have to leave a lot of groups in the future.

Thank you, but luck is not needed. Most people are quite able to recognize a bad tank that will not only slow their progress but grind it to a halt.

 

Examples just from last week:

1) Guy in full rakata unable to hold aggro on second Esseles boss, does not interrupt headshot, no idea where to stand and pull, no cummunication with the team, ignores teams suggestions. Vote kick after third wipe, leaves without a word thus locking himself out for 15 minutes. Qyzen tanked flawlessly.

2) Guardian wanting to tank D7 in DPS gear. He queues as tank "cause the gf pops up faster lol". Falls off bridge. Aggroes two mobs. Blames everyone else. Leaves upon vote kick being intiated thus giving himself a 15 minute lockout.

3) Shadow tank in Kaon sporting ungodly 11k health. I joined as sent dps to a "group in progress" and immediately initiated the kick. Didn't even bother asking what he was thinking; it was painfully obvious that he wasn't. And yet again, tank leaves before the kick and gets himself locked-out for 15 minutes.

4) Healer in that same Kaon group felt offended to my asking had they done the fp before. His words were something along the lines of me having to pay more respect to people better geared than me. Seeing how I wasn't even in the fp for him to check my gear, I asked on what he based his conclusion. Answer "I have more health" did not come as much of a surprise. Once I loaded the fp and he was able to see my full DG/Hazmat compared to his Rakata/BH he shut the hell up.

 

Please tell me again how I'm supposed to cry over players like that. I might be overlooking something extremely important without even realising it.

Edited April 3, 2013 by slafko

Since tanks need to attack FIRST, they are expected to set the pace and decide WHEN to attack, thus ... LEAD.

 

However, no matter what your role, you need to be sure that everyone is HERE and TOPPED OFF (on health and energy) before you hit the next group. It's not the healers responsibility to heal you between fights, especially when they are trying to get their energy UP.

 

Trash mobs are trash, but every run goes much more smoothly with just a few seconds of doing the above.

 

Unfortunately, it's the game mechanic that makes certain tanks have to be on the GO GO GO while their force or rage bar is topped off. I hate it when I'm trying to get some of my energy back and the tank has already lunged at the next mob before I've had a chance to top off. Plus, if I'm not a Sage/Sorc, I don't have a speed boost so I trudge to catch up.

 

Wait a few seconds if someone is lagging behind. Say something if you think it is causing a problem. A little courtesy goes a long way toward making PuG GFs more fun.

Honestly, if the tank appears to know what they're doing, then just give them lead, let them decide to use /RC or not at their own discretion, and let them lead the party, if they dont appear to know anything of what they're doing, maybe take the reins after asking if they have been in a particular instance before.

 

I hate it when I am tanking and as I know most instances like the back of my hand when someone else decides to aggro an extra mob. As the pace I set is as fast as it takes to Sprint and kill a mob, cant go any faster unless healer is down on energy/power, but no RC should not be needed for fp, or other regular HMs, but the tank, if they appear decent should always be the one to decide if its necessary to use or not. Only time I would use it in any fp HM is LI HM if a pug admits to not having been before, i might use it on a couple trash pulls that cause a lot stuns just prior to robot boss which I use it for, but as a rule it should only be used in operations, with very little exception. That exception should only be necessary with an ignorant pug, or in a pug group you're not convinced of their skill for a boss that can cause potential wipes such as LI HM robot boss, though with a half decent geared coordinated group, LI HM has always been childs play to tank/heal/dps.

I would absolutely vote kick a tank who insisted on using ready check for every single pull, especially since I would make an attempt to politely explain first why it's not needed.

Would you also vote kick the DPS or healer who insists on using it for every pull just because they randomly got assigned to be group "leader?"

PUG tanks have been using r? in chat for ages to make sure they don't start a boss fight in an FP before everyone is present and ready. They finally added a sleek little UI feature that is simple, quick, and does exactly the same thing. There is nothing wrong with tweaking it so that the team member slotted into the tank role (or any member of the group, if that's easier) always has access to it, regardless of the random "group leader" assignment. It would allow the feature to be reasonably used to do exactly what it is is designed for.

Would you also vote kick the DPS or healer who insists on using it for every pull just because they randomly got assigned to be group "leader?"

Yup, but if this idea gets implemented it would only be the tanks that could. I think the point is, being a tank doesn't make you immune to being kicked if you're a tool.

 

It looks like there a couple groups arguing here: the people who just don't want to be slowed down in FPs vs the ones who prefer fully rest between every pull, the people who are sick of bad tanks thinking whatever they say goes (because they have shorter GF queues than dps and healers) vs those tanks, and the people who just want to troll everyone vs, well, everyone.

 

In a GF flashpoint everyone should be able to ready check, not just the tank. Since that's not how it works, if the group seems to be one where RC would be useful, whenever the leader (whoever it is) is ready they should start a ready check. The tank saying they're ready to pull and then asking everyone else if they are too is functionally the same as a dps doing the same thing. If I'm tanking and good to go, I'll ask if everyone is ready. If I'm healing and good to go, I'll do the same. I think the problem isn't the role of the person initiating a ready check, it's people being scared to say or do anything first in a group, because they're afraid they'll mess up or irritate someone and get kicked.

Edited April 3, 2013 by namesaretough

It looks like there a couple groups arguing here

There are a couple of groups. Those who are posting on topic and those who are just belching and moaning about a whole raft of crap that has nothing to do with the OP.

 

Blabbering on and on about all the ways someone can misuse a feature or suck at their role has nothing to do with the original suggestion, which was just that a plainly useful feature should be useable at a minimum by the player in the group most likely to have a use for it, or as an alternative by everyone in a 4-man group, not just the randomly assigned "leader," who most times won't care or even realize they have the "lead."

PUG tanks have been using r? in chat for ages to make sure they don't start a boss fight in an FP before everyone is present and ready. They finally added a sleek little UI feature that is simple, quick, and does exactly the same thing. There is nothing wrong with tweaking it so that the team member slotted into the tank role (or any member of the group, if that's easier) always has access to it, regardless of the random "group leader" assignment. It would allow the feature to be reasonably used to do exactly what it is is designed for.

 

That's it^^

I think Bioware will unlock the RC for the whole group sooner or later!

Meanwhile i'll use the good old "ready?" if necessary

 

W

However, no matter what your role, you need to be sure that everyone is HERE and TOPPED OFF (on health and energy) before you hit the next group.

Now you're just being silly. Please stop writing stuff like this, it makes the new players not evolve and it ends up hurting the rest of the playerbase.

 

JFTR: No, you don't need to be at max health, energy, ammo in order to attack the next group.

 

I hate it when I am tanking and as I know most instances like the back of my hand when someone else decides to aggro an extra mob.

I ignore it and let them deal with it. Especially if I have already passed by that mob by hugging a wall. If I can do it, so can everyone else - but if you aggro, you tank.

 

 

The point is - we don't need /rc in flashpoints. All everyone has to do and, hopefully, has been doing for the past year is checking the party screen to see the health and energy of their team members. If everyone's above 80%, you're good to go. You'll regenerate on the way to the next pull.

Edited April 4, 2013 by slafko

Since tanks need to attack FIRST, they are expected to set the pace and decide WHEN to attack, thus ... LEAD.

That is not the same thing. The guy assigning CCs and kill order, or handle other matters (such as making sure the new guy is keeping up and knows what to do) when needed is the leader, since those are actual decisions rather than just moving along. Granted, those are usually not needed, thus why most pug groups don't have a leader at all.

What i find really interesting in this thread is that so many fail to realize the difference between taking point and being the leader.

 

Yes the tank are expected to set the pace and when to pull and ****. that does NOT make them the leader, that makes them the one people expect to take point. Being a leader is SO much more than having the "title" of leader in ops or fp or whatnot (which, lets face it, means absolutely NOTHING unless its content that's actually require a leader).

 

Being the leader in a Pug HMFP would mean knowing the tactics, assigning cc when needed and stuff like that. Do the tank need to do that? no, they really don't. Anyone with the knowhow can do that. I usually take leadership when im doing hmfp and pug ops. Why? is it because im a tank? No. my main class is not a tank. I take leadership when its required, because i know the tactics, and i know how to explain then and i know my classes and whats expected of all the roles in the op, in short, i know how to lead (being as leader is more than what i just stated, but for the purpose of this discussion it will have to due).

 

In ops. just because your a tank, does that require you to be leader? No it does not. Do the tank need to know tactics for the ops? Well yes, its practical, but not strictly necessarily, as long as someone know the relevant tactics and are able to explain them (this would be the case for all classes).

 

So who gets to be lead? In guild group, thats a given. The ops leader is the one appointed by the guildmaster (that hopefully is the one most suited for it) be it healer, tank or dps. what about Pug groups? again, its the one most suited for the task.

 

So is the tank the automatic leader? NO they are not. I repeat, its the one most suited for the task that should be leader. The tank may be that one. but it may very well be someone else.

 

Please realize the difference between taking point and leading.

 

So for the question of Ready check being useful for tanks or not. A ready check can be initiated by the one that have lead (and in the case of ops, also the ones that have assistant lead). For tanks to get this ability by default (like some have suggested) is downright stupid. Not to mention arrogant, because that tell us that the people suggest that draw the conclusion they are most suited to lead BECAUSE they are the tank. As ive argued above, I think thats stupid.

 

However, yes it might be a good idea to give every member of a fp group to be able to initiate a ready check, i would not know, since there is not enough for me to draw a conclusion on that question. A personal opinion would however say that the risk of abuse far outweigh the potential gain.

 

Also, i would like to state. Being able to use a ready check also does NOT make you the leader, it just make you able to use a command that, when abused, will endlessly annoy quite a few people, me included.

 

However, yes it might be a good idea to give every member of a fp group to be able to initiate a ready check, i would not know, since there is not enough for me to draw a conclusion on that question. A personal opinion would however say that the risk of abuse far outweigh the potential gain.

 

Also, i would like to state. Being able to use a ready check also does NOT make you the leader, it just make you able to use a command that, when abused, will endlessly annoy quite a few people, me included.

 

This is "stupid" you want the whole grp to be able to do a rdy check, talking about pointless rcs. theres always a clown who think its funny to use it on moments were you gonna think, ***....

 

And if i give leader to a no tank class, how can he know how the tank is gonna pull and what to cc???

Some tanks use pull, some use a knockback to grp a few together etc, no way that the other class leader knows what the tank is gonna do, so ye he needs lead or atleast assistant, ye i can see good points about the tactics etc but to be fair if i look at the dps in pugs most of them have a dffrent mindset then a tank they see damage but not the surrounding, a decent tank has scanned the surrounding makes a tactic and pulls, without the lead/assistant his tactic is gone. ( marking )

 

The way i see it a tank should have enough knowhow to be a leader, interupts,cc,tactics etc... if not then he nees to learn alot still ( then ye he shouldnt have lead or maybe just to learn how to use marks etc ) or the guy just sucks bad and shouldnt run at all

Edited April 4, 2013 by NrDLeipe

And if i give leader to a no tank class, how can he know how the tank is gonna pull and what to cc???

Some tanks use pull, some use a knockback to grp a few together etc, no way that the other class leader knows what the tank is gonna do, so ye he needs lead or atleast assistant, ye i can see good points about the tactics etc but to be fair if i look at the dps in pugs most of them have a dffrent mindset then a tank they see damage but not the surrounding, a decent tank has scanned the surrounding makes a tactic and pulls, without the lead/assistant his tactic is gone. ( marking )

 

The way i see it a tank should have enough knowhow to be a leader, interupts,cc,tactics etc... if not then he nees to learn alot still ( then ye he shouldnt have lead or maybe just to learn how to use marks etc ) or the guy just sucks bad and shouldnt run at all

 

What to CC is primarily decided based on the threat the mob pose to the group, and when there are multiple mobs posing a similar threat level you go for the ones most out of the way from the rest to allow for AOEs when possible. The leader does need to keep in mind how that decision affects the other roles and classes - for example, discharge and smash are important parts of sin and jugg tanking rotations so avoiding any CCs in the centre of the group is important while it doesn't matter much for a powertech - as long as he's allowed to DFA before the CC is applied. That applies to DPS too though, rage jugg/marauders need that same clearance for their smash, just like some sorc and sin specs need it for their death field while the other DPS classes don't really care (except lethality maybe - one of the few specs I don't have any experience with, not sure how important corrosive grenade is to them).

A good leader will keep all that stuff and more in mind while being familiar enough with all classes to know what kind of CCs they have available to them, if any (especially for lower level FPs where it's also a matter of knowing if that class has its CC yet or not), which is why someone experienced in playing all 3 roles (and preferably with experience playing as many classes as possible, at least to a basic level, to learn how they work), regardless of what role they're playing at that time.

If the plan presented by the leader presents a problem for the tank he can speak up, but that will only happen if you have an incompetent leader that failed to properly account for the class makeup and situation at hand, otherwise he would have taken the tools available to the tank into account to make sure it be as easy as possible to manage.

 

As an example, I often end up taking charge in the group regardless of what class I'm playing since I'm a very experienced player that levels mainly trough warzones and flashpoints (so I've ran them all countless of times, even the ones without a HM version), have cleared everything in the game as DPS and tank (and everything but EC/TFB HM and up as a healer) and know every class very well after getting one of every AC to 50.

Basically, I can (and do) take my main (powertech) into anything as either DPS or tank, both have BiS gear. Do you really think I forget everything about tanking when I hit respec and go for DPS, or forget how to DPS when I go tank for the day? Or forget about either role when I decide to log it out and log on one of my healers, or a different tank/dps class? No. I'm still the same person with the same experience, and just as well suited to leading a group as when I'm in tank spec.

 

Yes, there are many stupid DPS players out there who don't know how to play their class, but the exact same goes for tanks and healers, which is why it's the person behind the keyboard that matters, not his class, role or gear level.

What i find really interesting in this thread is that so many fail to realize the difference between taking point and being the leader.

Tanks lead by taking point.

 

You want to stay behind debating every CC and approach angle? Go right ahead. Don't mind me engaging that mob and killing a few of them while you type.

 

A group of capable players has no need for such debates and target marking. Do it on the fly.

I'd rather wait for a capable one than be doomed to play with such a bad one.

 

If tank wants to perform a ready check it is a good sign that it is already a good one.

 

I would give slafko dislikes if this forum allowed it.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Karkais

If tank wants to perform a ready check it is a good sign that it is already a good one.

 

I would give slafko dislikes if this forum allowed it.

 

If tank needs to perform ready check it's not a good sign... operations, yes, raid leader performing RC after cig/bathroom break is a nice feature. Tank, during FP which takes 20-40 minutes, not being able to see healers energy bar is not a good sign, 2 dps not being able to type 'wait, explain fight to me please' is not a good sign, and a healer unable to type 'stop for a sec' is even worse .

 

for 4 people before final or long fight/hard boss (like ones that wil kill you instant if you don't pay attention)

tank:R?

dps1:y

dps2:<jumps>

healer:go for it

is more then enouth.

A good tank performs ready check on the go: Keeping an eye on everyone's health and force/ammo status. For those who haven't noticed it by now - that information is clearly visible in the party screen. After that, one glimpse at the party chat to check that no one wrote "afk sec", "door brb", "dog needs to poop", "omg cat clawing at my face", "pizza incoming" and the team is ready to go. A good tank performs these checks while the last mob is busy getting killed, not by typing /rc and annoying people with a pop-up window.

 

Thank you.

Edited April 5, 2013 by slafko