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Plasma Brand- Shorten the burn


Kelha

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I wanted to put this in the PTS forum so it would at least get seen by Devs before it got moved, but I knew it would end up here anyhow. So here goes:

 

Devs, PLEASE consider shortening the burn on Plasma Brand to 9 seconds to match its cooldown.

 

With a vig guard as my main since launch, I am always looking for ways to improve my play, both in terms of enjoyment and actually being useful to my ops group. It is one of the more attention-requiring specs to play well in terms of watching cd's and procs, and I enjoy playing it the most of my toons. Despite our ability to keep up when played well, I know that I have been asked to leave ops because I was a guardian, to make room for a sent (pug group, not guild, but it still stung). While Vigilance can top charts or at least come close, in general it is still behind a lot of other classes in overall dps. I know tweaking classes is tricky, and Focus is the guardian flavor right now, it's not my style, I love the vigilance spec and just want it to be competitive. I think this minor tweak would help raise overall dps without being gamebreaking.

 

I know it's been posted about before, but I just wanted to bring attention back to this issue for my favorite class.

 

EDIT: This is a comment I made later in the thread but will post it here for newcomers.

 

One of my main reasons for wanting the shorter burn (9 or 6 seconds would be great) is that Plasma Brand procs Master Strike, which was not the case with talents at launch. The spec changed, but the 31 point skill did not- it needs to catch up. As it is, we lose 25% of PB's burn most of the time because of this.

 

Some extra front loaded damage would be excellent... perhaps these two things would put us back into the 5% gap they say all classes are in.

Edited by Kelha
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I believe that the burn should be even shorter than that. It should be a 6 second burn to really add to single target pressure in PVP. PVE wise, having a 6 second burn wouldn't really affect things much more than having a 9 second burn, due to the longer duration of fights in PVE.
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Me it's not so much the cooldown, but the requirement to have a debuff first that annoys me.

 

Most of the time, with Master Strike coming in the rotation, and Dispatch once the target is below 30%, I find that the DoT has enough time to tick off. It's not SUCH a big issue for me that you loose 3 ticks on the times where you chain it. I wouldn't mind if they brought it down to 9sec or allow it to overlap.

 

I know it's a great skill, that the DoT is nice DPS on the longer fights, plus the fact that it pops the +60% crit and has a chance to reset MS... but the prereq for Sunder Strike debuff is just retarded and has to go. I'd be very surprised if they kept that when they give some love to the Vig spec in a future patch. It's just an annoyance for when you switch mobs in the middle of a rotation.

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Me it's not so much the cooldown, but the requirement to have a debuff first that annoys me.

 

Most of the time, with Master Strike coming in the rotation, and Dispatch once the target is below 30%, I find that the DoT has enough time to tick off. It's not SUCH a big issue for me that you loose 3 ticks on the times where you chain it. I wouldn't mind if they brought it down to 9sec or allow it to overlap.

 

I know it's a great skill, that the DoT is nice DPS on the longer fights, plus the fact that it pops the +60% crit and has a chance to reset MS... but the prereq for Sunder Strike debuff is just retarded and has to go. I'd be very surprised if they kept that when they give some love to the Vig spec in a future patch. It's just an annoyance for when you switch mobs in the middle of a rotation.

 

Its one GCD....... one that can be applied at range, I don't think delaying your leap for 1.5 secs will break an encounter (pve or pvp)

 

Back to the topic at hand.

I'd like to see it's front loaded damage upped, for a 41 pt talent it just doesn't hit that hard. With 1100 power, 26 hilt and offhand Im getting 3k crits with adrenal popped. The dot damage is nice but still way below what my awfully geared mara dots damage is.

 

Personally if they had to tweak it I'd like to see a 9 sec dot + 20-30% more frontloaded damage. If that came at the expense of damage elsewhere i wouldn't mind.

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as long as focus's dmg is based purely on power and power is the only stat without diminishing returns and plasma brand has as low dmg as it currently does, there's nothing to talk about here. at least they couldve made ms go auto crit after pb or any other skill... or omit target's defenses like all internal/force attacks Edited by Carousel_t
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Its one GCD....... one that can be applied at range, I don't think delaying your leap for 1.5 secs will break an encounter (pve or pvp)

 

Back to the topic at hand.

I'd like to see it's front loaded damage upped, for a 41 pt talent it just doesn't hit that hard. With 1100 power, 26 hilt and offhand Im getting 3k crits with adrenal popped. The dot damage is nice but still way below what my awfully geared mara dots damage is.

 

Personally if they had to tweak it I'd like to see a 9 sec dot + 20-30% more frontloaded damage. If that came at the expense of damage elsewhere i wouldn't mind.

 

+1 Considering it needs a debuff and 5 focus before we can use it, the damage is just embarrassingly low.

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Its one GCD....... one that can be applied at range, I don't think delaying your leap for 1.5 secs will break an encounter (pve or pvp)

 

Back to the topic at hand.

I'd like to see it's front loaded damage upped, for a 41 pt talent it just doesn't hit that hard. With 1100 power, 26 hilt and offhand Im getting 3k crits with adrenal popped. The dot damage is nice but still way below what my awfully geared mara dots damage is.

 

Personally if they had to tweak it I'd like to see a 9 sec dot + 20-30% more frontloaded damage. If that came at the expense of damage elsewhere i wouldn't mind.

 

Still, the armour debuff requirement is stupid. Why do you need armour debuff to use an attack that completely bypasses armour?

 

It's not a big deal in PvE but in PvP I often need that one global (ie: I can't use Saber Throw before Leap or I lose my target). The instant damage is low, the dot ticks way too long and you need 5 Focus to use it. The only reason I actually spec into it because at least it's not mitigated by armour or shield and abilities like Dodge or Deflection are useless against it.

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What if Plasma Brand cost 3 focus if target is sundered and 5 focus if target is not sundered?

 

And how do you manage this ?

 

From my impresion of how the games work, I think that unless you buff yourself with a proc or somthing similar, you can't change the cost of an ability. The only thing they could do in this direction and that I can imagine, is the ability giving back Focus if used on a Sundered target, meaning that it will still require 5+ Focus to use the ability but it will use only 2 Focus (5 minus 2 from Sunder Armor, and minus 1 from Shien Form).

Edited by Altheran
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Still, the armour debuff requirement is stupid. Why do you need armour debuff to use an attack that completely bypasses armour?

 

It's not a big deal in PvE but in PvP I often need that one global (ie: I can't use Saber Throw before Leap or I lose my target). The instant damage is low, the dot ticks way too long and you need 5 Focus to use it. The only reason I actually spec into it because at least it's not mitigated by armour or shield and abilities like Dodge or Deflection are useless against it.

 

Its annoying yes but we will eventually sunder something for the focus we need maybe the debuff req is unneeded.It does seem pointless. Even in pvp you want to be using saberthrow before leap when available, the focus built + leap is enough for you to string together PB,BS,OS in a row.

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Still, the armour debuff requirement is stupid. Why do you need armour debuff to use an attack that completely bypasses armour?

 

It's not a big deal in PvE but in PvP I often need that one global (ie: I can't use Saber Throw before Leap or I lose my target). The instant damage is low, the dot ticks way too long and you need 5 Focus to use it. The only reason I actually spec into it because at least it's not mitigated by armour or shield and abilities like Dodge or Deflection are useless against it.

 

Honestly the armour debuff isn't a big deal in pve. You will never not have your sunder stacks up. Following a proper rotation you will be using sunder ever 4.5 to 6 seconds anyway

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+1 Considering it needs a debuff and 5 focus before we can use it, the damage is just embarrassingly low.

 

Amen. It's also a 31-point skill.

 

Honestly the armour debuff isn't a big deal in pve. You will never not have your sunder stacks up. Following a proper rotation you will be using sunder ever 4.5 to 6 seconds anyway

 

The front-end damage on Plasma Brand is mediocre even in pve. I can get almost the same with overhead slash, if not better, and it isn't a 31-talent skill. Yes, in pve the DOT ticks aren't really an issue. In pvp though, they are. Yeah, you get the armor bypass, but the DOT can be ignored for the most part. Part of the way to play Vig in pvp is to pick a target and stay on it, throwing up all 3 DOTs as often as possible (Plasma Brand, Overhead Slash, and Blade Storm). When all 3 are up, there should be serious pressure on the healer to keep that person up and running. Unfortunately, as it is now, all 3 are easily healed through with self-heals/medpacks and the person can just keep on doing what he was doing, or shift to attack you, when he SHOULD be on defense.**

 

**When I say "be on defense" I mean that he should be having to pop his defense cooldowns in order to stay up. I know I do when I end up meeting other DOT classes (Marauder/Sentinel, etc).

Edited by JefferyClark
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The front end dmg on it is shocking, highest on a boss under normal circumstances is 2.9 to 3.2k if it crits. Compare this to impale/overhead slash which can do between 4 and 5k and you have a 4 rage 2pt talent that can outdo your 31pt talent. The dmg of the bleeds/burns across the board need to be upped along with increased proc chance on MS/Ravage reset

 

In PvP yes the spec lacks any front loaded dmg or the large amount of CC that 31pt tank has to apply meaningful pressure to put your target on the back foot and force a reaction from them.

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The front end dmg on it is shocking, highest on a boss under normal circumstances is 2.9 to 3.2k if it crits. Compare this to impale/overhead slash which can do between 4 and 5k and you have a 4 rage 2pt talent that can outdo your 31pt talent. The dmg of the bleeds/burns across the board need to be upped along with increased proc chance on MS/Ravage reset

 

In PvP yes the spec lacks any front loaded dmg or the large amount of CC that 31pt tank has to apply meaningful pressure to put your target on the back foot and force a reaction from them.

 

All your suggestions are good theres only one problem.

They're all decent buffs to our dps, and might actually tip us over the top in pvp.While I loved derpsmashing everything in sight when i roll as focus the damage I do as vigi is actually fine, Maybe not facerollsent damage but decent for what my I think i should provide to the Op.

 

If bioware thinks our damage is OK we probably won't be touched which is a shame as it could be a good oppurtunity to give vigi a niche role like watchmen sents and make us a burn heavy build.

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Amen. It's also a 41-point skill.

 

The front-end damage on Plasma Brand is mediocre even in pve. I can get almost the same with overhead slash, if not better, and it isn't a 41-talent skill. Yes, in pve the DOT ticks aren't really an issue. In pvp though, they are. Yeah, you get the armor bypass, but the DOT can be ignored for the most part. Part of the way to play Vig in pvp is to pick a target and stay on it, throwing up all 3 DOTs as often as possible (Plasma Brand, Overhead Slash, and Blade Storm). When all 3 are up, there should be serious pressure on the healer to keep that person up and running. Unfortunately, as it is now, all 3 are easily healed through with self-heals/medpacks and the person can just keep on doing what he was doing, or shift to attack you, when he SHOULD be on defense.**

 

**When I say "be on defense" I mean that he should be having to pop his defense cooldowns in order to stay up. I know I do when I end up meeting other DOT classes (Marauder/Sentinel, etc).

 

By "almost the same" you mean a LOT better. Plasma Brand's direct hit, if all the stars align, can crit for something like 2.5-3k, OS can crit for over 4k.

 

But apart from that, you're right. It's laughable how Watchman dots are so much more effective.

Edited by Siorac
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I had posted this in another thread as well, but I'll reiterate:

 

One of my main reasons for wanting the shorter burn (9 or 6 seconds would be great) is that Plasma Brand procs Master Strike, which was not the case with talents at launch. The spec changed, but the 41 point skill did not- it needs to catch up. As it is, we lose 25% of PB's burn most of the time because of this.

 

Some extra front loaded damage would be excellent... perhaps these two things would put us back into the 5% gap they say all classes are in.

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Right now I have to question why Blade Storm and OS have a dot component as opposed to higher up-front damage. The only purpose they seem to server in PvP is that they can offer clense protection for shatter (as clenses remove the oldest dots first). However because of the high damage the Shatter dot does and its long tick time you generally want to get it up on the target asap so for me that theory sort of doesn't work :S

 

Although with the proc relic now being BiS in PvE they do offer the advantage of being ticks that can proc it. And the more damage numbers you have going off per second the greater chance you have of it proc'ing

 

The damage those dots do is pitiful to the point where I have lowbie ops who have skills like Coroasive dart that tick for more at a much much lower level.

 

I do however think that just upping the proc chance of a cooldown reset would be enough to help bridge the gap and help our sustained be more reliable. Maybe 45% on Overhead Slash and 60% on Plasma Brand. This would mke it massively more useful as a skill and the very high focus cost of it IMHO justifies a greater chance to proc it.

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You really don't want to see the damage a sents/mara's/PT's dots do its actually quite embarassing.My fresh geared mara with rakata MH and columi offhand has 1 dot that crits for 400 and overcharge saber critting for just shy of 1400.

 

I suspect the reason why they're added the Dot components on is to buff the damage these moves do without affecting combat,focus and defense. All in all I'm reasonably impressed with the damage that bladestorm and OS do,

BS crits often and OS hits hard, the dots are just icing on the cake.

 

Asto resetting MS chance i'd much rather they just buffed the damage that PB does, relying on adrenal usage to get 3k crits with a 31pter is pretty shocking.

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By "almost the same" you mean a LOT better. Plasma Brand's direct hit, if all the stars align, can crit for something like 2.5-3k, OS can crit for over 4k.

 

But apart from that, you're right. It's laughable how Watchman dots are so much more effective.

 

I agree this dot needs to be under 9 seconds, but really you're comparing Vigilance dot damage (which is in all reality not even a full dot damage spec) to Watchman, which is really a pure dps dot damage spec.

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I agree this dot needs to be under 9 seconds, but really you're comparing Vigilance dot damage (which is in all reality not even a full dot damage spec) to Watchman, which is really a pure dps dot damage spec.

 

I only made the comparison because Vigilance and Watchman are the two sustained damage Jedi Knight specs. They are different, yes, but Plasma Brand's overall, well, crappiness is quite an important reason as to why Vigilance is inferior to Watchman in almost every aspect.

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I only made the comparison because Vigilance and Watchman are the two sustained damage Jedi Knight specs. They are different, yes, but Plasma Brand's overall, well, crappiness is quite an important reason as to why Vigilance is inferior to Watchman in almost every aspect.

 

Dots while lackluster are the tip of the iceberg when comparing vigi to watchmen.

-Godmode Cd's

-They have surge talents.

-AMFG raid Cd's.

-better manuverabilty.

-less conditional interupts.

-better survivability out of CD's.

 

Vigi really isn't a bad spec, Its just nowhere near as polished as a watchmen or even combat sentinel spec.

Edited by Karasuko
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Right now I have to question why Blade Storm and OS have a dot component as opposed to higher up-front damage. The only purpose they seem to server in PvP is that they can offer clense protection for shatter (as clenses remove the oldest dots first). However because of the high damage the Shatter dot does and its long tick time you generally want to get it up on the target asap so for me that theory sort of doesn't work :S

 

I don't see these DoTs as a cleanse protection for Plasma Brand, but rather as a "you shall not stealth before me". Overhead Slash and Blade Storm being different attack types (Melee & Force), it allows me to use them as a counter of respectively Force Shroud and Evasion, because I will be able to DoT them again before they try to disapear, and most of the time it screws their vanishing move.

Edited by Altheran
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