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What classes make the most sense for saboteur?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
What classes make the most sense for saboteur?

LegallyTwisted's Avatar


LegallyTwisted
05.12.2020 , 10:08 AM | #11
I’m really struggling to find good excuses to made saboteurs in the Empire that want to go Rep. Even my lightside Imperials are usually loyal as hell. But I’ve managed one, which I’ll be getting around to soon: someone who was fighting for the other side all along. I have an agent that’s a deep cover SIS agent sent to infiltrate Imperial Intelligence, and when time comes, she’s going home.

I’ve recently gone back to my OG server and sent my oldest toons through the rest of their story, and my knight’s has been one of my personal favorites (she’s a light-leaning knight that’s now siding with the empire). She’s ALWAYS laughed off most the Jedi code, always thought they were stuffy, and ALWAYS thought they needed to take more action (she’s A LOT like Ashara). When the Republic abandoned her and refused to help out, this compounded her issues with them even more. With Lana showing her sometimes better solutions have to be more pragmatic, she started to lean neutral, killing one to save many, that sorta thing. This all came to a head when the Empire of all people came to help her when the Republic refused to, and nearly being assassinated by the former chancellor shortly thereafter, honestly she’d just mad as hell and absolutely done with the Republic. She was unsure about siding with the Empire, but when she went to Ossus and saw the Jedi were there playing house while thousands of people were dying, she knew she was making the right choice. The death toll leaves a sour taste in her mouth, but at LEAST the Empire actually DOES SOMETHING.

TLDR: it depends on the story you want to tell, how your character progresses, all sorts of things. You can twist almost anything into working if you jump through the right hoops.

SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
05.12.2020 , 11:27 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by LegallyTwisted View Post
I’ve recently gone back to my OG server and sent my oldest toons through the rest of their story, and my knight’s has been one of my personal favorites (she’s a light-leaning knight that’s now siding with the empire). She’s ALWAYS laughed off most the Jedi code, always thought they were stuffy, and ALWAYS thought they needed to take more action (she’s A LOT like Ashara). When the Republic abandoned her and refused to help out, this compounded her issues with them even more. With Lana showing her sometimes better solutions have to be more pragmatic, she started to lean neutral, killing one to save many, that sorta thing. This all came to a head when the Empire of all people came to help her when the Republic refused to, and nearly being assassinated by the former chancellor shortly thereafter, honestly she’d just mad as hell and absolutely done with the Republic. She was unsure about siding with the Empire, but when she went to Ossus and saw the Jedi were there playing house while thousands of people were dying, she knew she was making the right choice. The death toll leaves a sour taste in her mouth, but at LEAST the Empire actually DOES SOMETHING.
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JuventusAndFCK's Avatar


JuventusAndFCK
05.12.2020 , 08:54 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by LegallyTwisted View Post
I’m really struggling to find good excuses to made saboteurs in the Empire that want to go Rep. Even my lightside Imperials are usually loyal as hell. But I’ve managed one, which I’ll be getting around to soon: someone who was fighting for the other side all along. I have an agent that’s a deep cover SIS agent sent to infiltrate Imperial Intelligence, and when time comes, she’s going home.
I feel the opposite actually, my interpretation of light side imperial characters is that they pursue a moral ideal in a world that contradicts that. This is why both Sith classes express a desire for imperial reform if they express light side tendencies.

I've gone saboteur on light side Warrior and neutral alignment Hunter.
The Hunter is basically just a "professional" in terms of his former occupation, but he never felt any loyalty towards the empire and is therefore more quick to profess his dislike of their abuses, which he himself have been subject to and executioner of.
The Warrior beleived once that the empire could change for the better, but always struggled with convincing himself of the truth of it. Acina going behind his back on Iokath was just the straw that broke the camels back.

RBWTOR's Avatar


RBWTOR
05.19.2020 , 07:11 PM | #14
Here's my take:
First, let's be real, the Republic was very explicit about not siding with the alliance on everything and even bad-mouthed them publicly over and over. Eventually, Saresh tried to take it over and if anybody was ever the embodiment of the republic, it was Saresh. On the other hand, the Empire openly supported the alliance and even showed up to save them on Voss. Even on Iokath, Acina was prepared to betray you if needed, but tried to work together as allies as her first option.
  • LS Warrior, LS Inquisitor: I could see any light side force user choosing to side against the Sith. Seems like a no-brainer.
  • DS Warrior, DS Inquisitor: I think it's unlikely they would be a saboteur. However, I definitely think they might choose to remain independent - especially if they think they can eventually grow the alliance to be more powerful than the sith empire.
  • LS Bounty Hunter: I have a hard time seeing this one becoming a saboteur without something else happening that isn't in the game. I saw someone mention Mandalorian stuff - maybe that would do it.
  • DS Bounty Hunter: Mine always seemed to basically be an anarchist, so she might choose to be a saboteur for the mayhem.
  • LS Agent, DS Agent: This guy was betrayed and treated like crap by both sides. If there was an option to not side with either one, I think he'd do it. Otherwise, I think he could be a saboteur or not, depending on which betrayal was more devastating.
  • LS Jedi Knight, LS Jedi Consular: I can't see these siding with the sith for any reason.
  • DS Jedi Knight, DS Jedi Consular: If this character is already basically a sith, then of course they would side with them and probably hope to defect and take over.
  • LS Smuggler, DS Smuggler: I could see this character going either way, especially since the republic has betrayed her repeatedly.
  • DS Trooper, LS Trooper: This is definitely the most loyalist character before KOTFE, but I think there's the definite possibility of a change at that point. Essentially, the trooper gets disowned and betrayed by the people he fought so hard to protect. If the trooper separates the -people- that betrayed him from the whole republic, then I think he'd stay loyal, but if he feels like it was the whole republic that betrayed him, he could easily turn on them. I mean, it's happened before. *cough*Tavus*cough*

There's probably some additional holdover from the Iokath decision, but I would guess that most people would choose the same side on Iokath and for the saboteur role.
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phalczen's Avatar


phalczen
05.20.2020 , 12:30 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by RBWTOR View Post
First, let's be real, the Republic was very explicit about not siding with the alliance on everything and even bad-mouthed them publicly over and over. Eventually, Saresh tried to take it over and if anybody was ever the embodiment of the republic, it was Saresh. On the other hand, the Empire openly supported the alliance and even showed up to save them on Voss. Even on Iokath, Acina was prepared to betray you if needed, but tried to work together as allies as her first option.
I actually agree with many of your thoughts on classes that fit with saboteurs which is why I snipped them from the quote. But, I think you have been a little too harsh of the analysis of the Republic.

Saresh's hunger for power was definitely detrimental to the Republic, but I think there were other motivations. First of all, I get the sense that the Republic is not as large in this time period as it is in the time of the films. As in, I don't think there are as many member worlds in the Senate in this time period as there are in the time of the movies. Perhaps this is a result of political divides, like the Rift Alliance from the Consular's story and the Tion Hegemony, or simply a side effect of the Treaty of Coruscant and how the worlds were divided up. But I get the sense that after the war with Zakuul, the Republic is desperate. It would be desperate even without Saresh being in charge. Not siding with the Alliance during the War against Zakuul was self-preservation ... the Republic probably has a lot more to lose than the Empire in terms of territory and control.

The Republic lost a lot of its best leaders to the Alliance too. Dr. Oggurobb may not have stayed a republic ally after the events of Makeb, but in times of war Hylo always stood with the Republic, and of course Adm. Aygo is ex-republic. That being said, if you exclude Forex/Pierce (they are mutually exclusive), then the Empire loses 9 assets to the Republic's 5 during the KOTFE and KOTET chapters (Vette and Torian are a package deal since one has to die). But most of those assets are largely independent anyway ... they were loners before you met them and most of them went off on their separate ways when you were frozen in carbonite.
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RBWTOR's Avatar


RBWTOR
05.22.2020 , 03:05 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by phalczen View Post
I actually agree with many of your thoughts on classes that fit with saboteurs which is why I snipped them from the quote. But, I think you have been a little too harsh of the analysis of the Republic.
The Republic had lots of reasons to be scared of Arcann/Vaylin - that's definitely true! However, regardless of why the Republic chose to be terrible to me, they still did it. I mean, Saresh literally attempts to assassinate me, and shows up in person to stage a coup, gets publicly caught red-handed, and the leader of the republic sends me an email that says, "On the DL, I agree that Saresh sucks, but I'm still going to publicly call you a monster for stopping her and publicly call for you to be destroyed".

Anyway, your point makes a lot of sense about the Republic maybe not having any choice in the matter, but they clearly set themselves as an enemy of the alliance and the alliance commander personally (even if it was just for show). I think many people would have trouble getting past that when deciding on a future alliance.
(Note that I think the Republic leadership does a great job of mending those wounds in the Onslaught storyline - as long as your character doesn't hold a grudge!)
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Quething's Avatar


Quething
05.23.2020 , 01:29 PM | #17
The trouble with that is that hating the Republic is one thing. Siding with the Empire is something completely different.

Every toon has seen the recent history of the Empire. They started the war, twice. The entire game is fought on Republic planets, because the Republic is not even attempting to attack Imperial planets, while the Imps are running around conquering and glassing Republic planets. As a Pub toon you fight Imperial slavers and butchers and prevent Imperial genocides. You see them have zero issue with Vitiate right up until he turns on them, and you get to convert to non-lethal uses a weapon designed to murder a civilian populace in the event of political dissent.

Now, sure, Acina says it's a "new" Empire under her command, but is there any evidence that that's true? You go to Kaas and listen to ambient dialog and it's clear she's still ruling through fear. You suggest taking Lorman as a slave and she doesn't go "oh we're trying to get rid of slavery;" she thinks it's the best idea she's heard all day. Even if you make an alliance with her, she violates your sovereign territory on Iokath in order to steal a weapon from you that she makes no attempt to tell you about. She can claim she's trying to "protect you from the Republic" all she wants, but her actions demonstrate quite clearly that she's still playing the Sith game of power and greed over loyalty or principle. If you side with her on Iokath anyway, she spends the whole battle crowing about slaughtering Pubs, and personally chokes her enemies to death after they're beaten (Pub side, we see beaten enemies being led away in shackles instead), showing the same bloodlust and abuse of the weak that has always defined Sith. And how does the war start up again? Just like the first two times, the Empire attacks a Republic territory for the sole purpose of butchering everyone there, destroying everything they value, and wiping out the last remnants of a struggling culture. Meet the new Empire, same as the old Empire.

So your Republic toon, in order to want the Empire to defeat the Republic out of anger, doesn't just have to hate the Republic. S/he has to hate the Republic more than s/he hates slavery, tyranny, warmongering, genocide, and potentially being personally betrayed. You could certainly get there plenty of different ways on a Dark Side toon (maybe you don't mind a little genocide if it's against the Jedi because you hate them too, like my DS consular saboteur), but I don't know how you could possibly make it make sense for any character with any moral principles, no matter how angry they are at the Republic.

Thepyrethatburns's Avatar


Thepyrethatburns
05.27.2020 , 10:54 AM | #18
For me, it's going to do personal motivation. (Haven't finished my BH or started a consular yet. Between the demands of RL and my tendency to play the older toons, progress is slow.)

Completed:
Warrior: Stays separate because her loyalty is to the Alliance she built but Acina was a good ally and she still has loyalty to the Empire from her wrath of the Empire days but she isn't planning to serve another Emperor.

Going through Onslaught:
Trooper: Loyalty to the Republic above all. Will probably rejoin Republic.

Finished Class story but somewhere between End of Class Story and Beginning of Jedi Under Siege (As such, thoughts could change.)

Inquisitor: Power above all. Why rejoin either when I command a powerful third faction? If I rejoin the Empire, it will be to grind Acina under my heel and rule all three. Loyalist only as long as the Republic survives.

Smuggler: Credits and freedom above all else. Has seen the corrruption of the Republic firsthand (Senators aside, remember how, on NS, the Jedi were covering up that one of their own was running a death camp? Yeah, no loyalty to the powerful in the Republic). The Empire is brutal but upfront and it's changing. Also came to the aid of the Alliance against Zakuul unlike the Republic. Still, playing both sides against the middle could result in the weakening of both and more money/freedom for everyone. Saboteur but incompetent one. (My thought is to let one or both Republic fleets escape but to destroy the shipyard, guaranteeing that both sides will continue to exhaust military resources. In head canon, that will allow both to weaken while the Alliance gets more powerful.) Also "Empire. Empire. Empire." is totally something my Smuggler would do.

Agent: Was going to stay a loyalist (both sides really suck and some of the Republic dialogue during the whole mind control ....... got a little offensive. If you have to choose, better the Devil You Know......) but the Saboteur is so much more effective and fitting. (At last, actual spy work for the Agent) Will be a largely competent Saboteur but I can't see her saying "I like your boots."

Jedi Knight: Loyalist but she's still really early into the post-class story thing and I haven't thought of how to square someone with a psychotic hatred of the Sith with letting Lana live. This one could still change a lot. (As my Sith Warrior's romance with Lana was ruined by that one decision at the end of the first half of the Zakuul empire story [Head canon says the SW and Lana just keep the whole thing under wraps but still.....], a full 180 from psychotic hatred of Sith to Lana romance would be an interesting tweak. Could also provide motivation to be saboteur.)
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JYthelifesaver's Avatar


JYthelifesaver
06.01.2020 , 05:24 PM | #19
Ideally, due to the fact that it is an option, all classes should make sense but there is little in sith or jedi stories that would make a saboteur route make sense. Going by story, Imperial Operative/Sniper could work out 100%. Smuggler could work simply due to the nature of a star wars smuggler but this too has little from story to make it make sense, I think.

Allronix's Avatar


Allronix
06.21.2020 , 01:10 PM | #20
Justifications for Sabotuer as far as I can see it:

Inquisitor: "Yes, dearie. I know the Empire took me off the auction block and I rose in the ranks to sit on the Dark Council. But do you REALLY expect me to forget the Empire put that chain on my neck in the first place? Through Victory, my Chains are broken. And I have NO interest in being chained to the Empire again."

Bounty Hunter: "Torian, your dad may have been going about it the wrong way, but I think he was right. The Empire's treated us as their pet dogs and the Children of Mandalore have never benefited from the arrangement. Time to alter the deal."

Warrior: "I have my own Empire now. Why should I bother propping up yours?"

Agent: "You're hopelessly corrupt and inept. You treated the Intelligence Services as glorified janitors and left us to hang when we needed the Empire and the Empire needed us. Time to pay back the favor."

---------------------

Trooper: "All that loyalty I showed to the Republic and for what? So you can get Suresh in there and have her try and kill me? So you can throw Havoc under the transport? Disgrace Jorgan and Dorne? The Imps at least TRIED to help while you sat on your shebs."

Smuggler: "Look, I'm not loyal to governments; just my people. Now that I know how fickle your goodwill really is? I'll go with the people who tried to help mine."

Consular: "The Empire realized we had a common goal and a common enemy and made overtures of truce and an alliance. The Republic repaid our loyalty by trying to assassinate me. They also let my friend (or husband) rot in a mad scientist's torture chamber for years. As much as I regret it, I won't betray my allies for those who betrayed me."

Knight: "A Republic who abandons its people to Vitiate's rule and cruelty is not a Republic worth defending. And all my overtures of friendship and please for help went unanswered. Was my fight against him all for nothing?"
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