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Stop comparing Vitiate to Palpatine...


Wolfninjajedi

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Stop, stop saying Vitiate is more powerful, stop saying that Vitiate would beat Sidious, enough with these Vitiate vs Sidious threads. It has gotten to the point, where its just making me shake my head at some of the posts people make when these two are brought up....so here in order to prove that

 

Sidious > Vitiate

 

here is well...some proof!

===============

 

Quotes from Guides, Sourcebooks, Encyclopedias, etc

 

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

 

--Taken from Vader: The Ultimate Guide

 

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

 

--Taken from The New Essential Chronology

 

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

 

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

 

When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."

 

--Taken from Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm

 

The Sith Order, in hiding for a millennium, had awaited the birth of one who was powerful enough to return the Order to prominence. Darth Sidious was the fulfillment of that prophecy, capable of exacting the Sith's revenge on the Jedi for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.

 

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

 

Darth Sidious proved to be the grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings.

 

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

 

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

 

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

 

Even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine. He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side.

 

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

 

Boarding his shuttle, he ordered the pilot to lift off. A pity, my son, he thought. You could have joined me and together...we could have destroyed the Emperor and ruled the galaxy in his place. As he stared at the severed appendage in his hands, a sudden flash of insight struck the Dark Lord, realization dawning like the sunrise of Bespin. Perhaps, if you will not be turned, little Jedi, a suitable substitute may be arranged.

 

Suddenly, Vader was struck to his knees by the horribly powerful voice that rolled like fiery thunder through his brain. The pilots struggled vainly to ignore the Dark Lord's...discomfort. "Yes, my servant," the voice boomed in his mind, dripping raw evil. "Come to Mount Tantiss, immediately. I shall meet you there, and we will discuss my new trophy."

"Yes...my Master," Vader gasped, feeling an icy stab of dread in his soul, as the Emperor's mocking chuckle still echoed in his mind. His Master had detected his rebellious thoughts. This discussion would be most unpleasant. Most unpleasant indeed.

 

--Taken from The Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook: Clone B-2332-54

 

Senses traitorous thoughts from Vader and harms him mentally.

===========

 

Quotes from Novels

 

To most eyes the man in those simple robes of rough cloth was unremarkable, just another being making his way in the universe. But to those who could feel the Force he was anything but ordinary. To them, he was a dark sun blazing with power that was simultaneously hypnotizing and terrifying to behold.

Darth Sidious, the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith, had come to Mandalore.

Savage stared at the new arrival in astonishment, transfixed by the sight.

 

--Taken from Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

 

Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physical eye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku's perception took the measure of those below him with exhilarating precision.

Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force.

Skywalker was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatens a tornado.

And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness.

A black hole of the Force.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

 

Outside, the wind picked up another notch, shrieking and groaning among the eleven chimneys as if to announce the arrival of a hideous guest. Dooku's comm console chimed. He glanced over, expecting the daily report from General Grievous, or perhaps a message from Asajj Ventress. He reached over to open the channel, ecognized the digital signature of the incoming transmission, jabbed the channel open, and snapped to his feet. "You called, my Master?"

 

--Taken from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

 

Just by hologram appearance, making the planet form a storm.

 

"The churning energy mass of a Force Storm can consume everything it touches, for at its eye is pure hate. Just as a black hole devours a star, this storm can swallow armies and fold space."

 

--Taken from Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

 

"The Force Storm is truly an awe-inspiring demonstration of pure natural energy. After using the Force to open a hyperspace wormhole, tremendous shockwaves will ripple through the fabric of space. Due to the Force Storm's potential for abuse, the Council has recently classified it as a dark side power."

 

"The Reborn Emperor used this at Da Soocha. It has the power to kill worlds."

 

—Luke

--Taken from The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force

 

Feats from Novels/Comics

 

EDIT: Scans won't show up now, but they are there.

 

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/1994435-new_picture__119_.jpg

 

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/1994436-new_picture__120_.jpg

 

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/1994437-new_picture__121_.jpg

 

Reducing a SithSpawn to ashes with Lighting.

 

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/1994418-new_picture__103_.jpg

 

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/1994419-new_picture__104_.jpg

 

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/1994420-new_picture__105_.jpg

 

Burning 3 Darkside Prophets to their bones with just a burst of lighting.

 

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/1773586-new_picture__95_.jpg

 

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/1773587-new_picture__96_.jpg

 

Killing a Stormtrooper legion(which is 8,192 men) with precision to not harm his Royal Guards.

 

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

 

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

 

This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

 

Bending Mace's blade towards his face.

 

The end came with astonishing suddenness. The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of his strength.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

 

Overpowers Yoda's Force Absorb

 

Once more Sidious allowed his memories to unfold, and he relived the crimethe event, as he had at last come to think of it. His father's limp and blooded body. The smashed skulls of the bodyguards. His hands clenched around his mother's slender throat—but not really, only in his mind, strangling her with his thoughts. The lifeless forms of his siblings, slumped here and there...

 

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

 

Killing his family without any training.

 

His vision turned black after the piranha beetles devoured his eyes—but the pain continued for a long time afterward....

Later, Lemelisk had awakened, blinking his restored eyes, and was completely disoriented. He found himself in the same vaulted chamber, wrapped in a clean, white uniform. His body felt young and strong, without the paunch and the flab from spending too much time working on projects in his mind and too little effort maintaining his health.

Lemelisk bent his arms and looked at his hands, blinking in astonishment. Hearing a small buzz and clatter, he glanced over to find the wire-mesh cage still filled with buzzing, clacking piranha beetles that scampered up and down the walls, snapping their mandibles. Spattered patterns of fresh blood made arcs along the walls of the cage. Inside, he saw a carcass that had been stripped down to gnawed bones and shreds of clothing—the clothing he himself had worn only moments ago.

"You'll grow accustomed to your clone in a moment," the Emperor said, rubbing his knobby fingers over a strange ancient-looking artifact. "I trust that all of your memories have been transferred properly? It is an uncertain skill at best, and the Jedi I stole the technique from was reluctant to give me thorough instruction. But it seems to work."

Lemelisk nodded weakly, wanting to faint but knowing he didn't dare.

"Now don't fail me again, Lemelisk," the Emperor said. "I'd hate to have to think of an even worse execution for next time."

 

--Taken from Darksaber

 

Transfers Lemelisk's essence to a cloned body.

 

He remembered playing a Force game with a shuura fruit, sitting across a long table from Padme in the retreat by the lake on Naboo. He remembered telling her how grumpy Obi-Wan would be to see him use the Force so casually.

Palpatine seemed to catch his thought; he gave a yellow sidelong glance as the robe settled onto his shoulders.

"You must learn to cast off the petty restraints that the Jedi have tried to place upon your power," he said. "Anakin, it's time. I need you to help me restore order to the galaxy."

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

 

Reading Vader's mind.

 

Jerjerrod shifted uneasily. He didn't dare voice his concern that he was needed in that ministry to make sure Imperial resources weren't overextended.

"Do not concern yourself with the logistical status of the Empire," Palpatine stated, as if he had read the Moff's mind.

--Taken from the Shadows of the Empire Sourcebook: In the Emperor's Service

 

Another show of mind reading.

 

The Emperor closed his eyes and let the rage consume him. An energy bolt of anger crackled across his body, turning his blood black with venom. A red mist clouded the darkness behind his lids. The fog of hate would have shrouded the vision of a lesser man. But when the Emperor opened his eyes, the blood-tinged world was sharper than ever.

Clarity. Understanding. Power.

This was what the rage could do for him. This was what pathetic Jedi had never understood, as they rejected their anger, letting cowardice block their path to the dark side. This was why they had been eliminated, and why the Emperor reigned supreme, his power unquestioned. His iron rule unassailable.

Until now.

"My Lord, the Death Star has been...destroyed."

The Emperor played with his memory of the moment, polishing it in his mind like a precious gem. Remembering: Darth Vader's voice as he delivered the news. Vader's anger, so forceful the Emperor could feel it from halfway across the galaxy. And with the anger, terror, for Vader knew how terribly he had disappointed his Master. Vader knew it was not the first time.

 

--Taken from Rebel Force: Target

 

He feels the anger from Vader, from halfway across the galaxy.

 

That smile, again, like a knife. Luke held silent, struggling to regain his composure. The Emperor tapped his fingers on the arm of the throne, recalling. “There was one called…Yoda. An aged Master Jed…Ah, I see by your countenance I have hit a chord, a resonant chord indeed. Yoda, then.”

Luke flashed with anger at himself, now, to have revealed so much, unwillingly, unwittingly. Anger and self-doubt. He strove to calm himself—to see all, to show nothing; only to be.

“This Yoda,” the Emperor mused. “Lives he still?”

Luke focused on the emptiness of space beyond the window behind the Emperor’s chair. The deep void, where nothing was. Nothing. He filled his mind with this black nothing. Opaque, save for the occasional flickering of starlight that filtered through the ether.

“Ah,” cried Emperor Palpatine. “He lives not. Very good, young Skywalker, you almost hid this from me. But you could not. And you can not. Your deepest flickerings are to me apparent. Your nakedest soul. That is my first lesson to you.” He beamed.

 

--Taken from Return of the Jedi

 

Reads Luke's thoughts and emotions.

 

The planet Chandrila sponsored a monthlong retreat for members of the Legislative Youth Program. Once a year young beings from a host of worlds arrived to participate in mock Senate trials in and around Hanna City and to tour Chandrila’s vast agricultural projects, wilderness areas, coral reefs, and garden parks. It was in Gladean Park—a game reserve outside coastal Hanna—that Plagueis paid young Palpatine an unannounced visit. But it was Plagueis who was surprised.

“I knew you would come, Magister,” Palpatine said when Plagueis and 11-4D turned up at one of the game reserve’s viewing blinds.

“How did you know?”

“I knew, that’s all.”

“And just how often are your premonitions correct?”

“Almost always.”

“Curious,” 11-4D remarked while Palpatine was hurrying away to excuse himself from the company of two friends.

 

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

 

Plageuis is surprised that Sidious knew of him coming, this is Sidious when he was young.

 

Blended into the herd, the animal Sidious had fixed his sight on would have been indistinguishable to normal beings. But Sidious had the animal in his mind and was now looking through its eyes, one with it.

 

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

 

He sees through the eyes of a beast.

 

Maul had not wanted to disappoint his Master. He wanted to apologize and ask for forgiveness, but he knew if he did, his punishment would be even worse. And then he thought of how long he had suffered on Orsis because he had not been allowed to use his powers, and he felt his shame transform into rage. He looked up at Sidious and was about to speak but his Master made a pinching gesture. Maul felt his throat constrict. Sidious walked a few steps away from Maul before he released his remote grip on Maul's throat.

 

--Taken from The Wrath of Darth Maul

 

A show of Force Choke.

 

"Already, I have perfected the Force maelstrom, which creates an invulnerable energy sphere to block incoming attacks while bombarding enemies with debris and electrifying them with bolts of lightning."

 

--Taken from Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

 

States he mastered Force Maelstorm which was a stepping stone for him to get to Force Storms.

 

Years ago, Emperor Palpatine chose Byss as his private retreat, and Imperial architects and engineers were commissioned to build him an opulent palace. Several million humans were allowed to emigrate to the world, where the Emperor and his adepts used the dark side to feed off their life energies. The planet's population eventually reached almost 20 billion, and all outgoing communications were censored by security agents.

 

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

 

Force Drain on an enormous scale of billions.

 

Palpatine's body was destroyed. Separated from his clones, Palpatine was forced to survive in the maddening, bodiless existence of the void. Through sheer will he retained his identity, crossing the gulf of space to again take up residence in his clone body.

 

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

 

Through will he came back from the void, back into the physical realm.

 

Maul parried the blow and reversed, coming at Sidious from the opposite side. But Sidious had already vanished, leaving Maul to lunge at the empty air. As Maul lost his balance, his body fell against the cave's wall.

Sidious said from behind Maul, "You are that pathetic. You are weak. Not worthy of being a Sith Lord. I have misjudged you."

Maul's anger burned to rage. He spun fast and swung his lightsaber again, but again he failed to strike Sidious, who moved faster than he could follow.

 

--Taken from The Wrath of Darth Maul

 

Moving faster, then Maul could follow.

 

Now Tenebrous touched upon his apprentice's powers of foresight, which were also vastly more developed than Tenebrous had believed. For a moment, Tenebrous found his perception cast far forward in time—to Plagueis' own death at the hands of his apprentice, who was himself only visible as a smear of darkness...

A shadow!

 

--Taken from The Tenebrous Way

 

He appears to a blur Tenebrous, who foresaw Plagueis' death.

 

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

 

Appearing as a blur to Anakin.

 

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

 

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

 

Another speed feat.

 

======

 

Now I shouldn't have to post Dueling skills, because Vitiate hasn't really shown much of any. So I won't.

 

Now there people, whatever Vitiate has done. Sidious has done and even then more(I didn't even really post the bigger things, I could have shown far more things he has done) you have multiple sources stating Sidious is the most powerful sith lord ever, so enough with this

 

"Vitiate is close to Sidious in power."

 

"Vitiate is the most powerful Sith Lord to exist."

 

"Vitiate blah, blah, blah!"

 

Enough.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Well, It's quite obvious a lot of work went into this! To which I say: Well done! :p

 

Usually I would very strongly side with Vitiate, but this post is a very good one, a great read, and helped me to better appreciate Palpatine. So again, well done!

 

However, all of this info alone does not put the entire argument to rest. This is a great compilation of Palpatine feats and achievements, but it does not "prove" that Palpatine is "better" than Vitiate.

 

Personally I believe that as time goes on, generally the Sith Lords get more and more powerful. This is because the entire Sith Philosophy is about survival of the fittest, even going so far as to have the apprentice kill their own masters to show that they are stronger. So, if we're talking a one-on-one duel between these two, I would agree that yes, Palpatine would be the probable victor.

 

However, 1v1 duels are not how I determine who is the "better" Sith. I determine this mainly by how much they achieved within their own time, and I don't think the OP completely debunks and destroys the argument that Vitiate is equal or greater than Palpatine to the point where people will "stop comparing Vitiate to Palpatine."

 

For example, Napoleon and his Empire and armies would completely destroy the Empire and armies of Alexander the Great, but does that make him a "better" general? Does that mean that we should stop comparing the two?

 

I could create a huge list of Vitiate's feats and accomplishments and battle prowess, but that does not do anything to progress the argument unless I then compare the two.

So in the end, I don't think your post will or even should cause people to stop comparing the two, as well written as it was! ;)

Edited by Swissbob
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Now there people, whatever Vitiate has done. Sidious has done and even then more(I didn't even really post the bigger things) you have multiple sources stating Sidious is the most powerful sith lord ever, so enough with this

 

Was Palpatine able to rule and / or manage an empire during 1300(!!!) years? Pretty sure we all know the answer to that.

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Well, It's quite obvious a lot of work went into this! To which I say: Well done! :p

 

Usually I would very strongly side with Vitiate, but this post is a very good one, a great read, and helped me to better appreciate Palpatine. So again, well done!

 

However, all of this info alone does not put the entire argument to rest. This is a great compilation of Palpatine feats and achievements, but it does not "prove" that Palpatine is "better" than Vitiate.

 

Personally I believe that as time goes on, generally the Sith Lords get more and more powerful. This is because the entire Sith Philosophy is about survival of the fittest, even going so far as to have the apprentice kill their own masters to show that they are stronger. So, if we're talking a one-on-one duel between these two, I would agree that yes, Palpatine would be the probable victor.

 

However, 1v1 duels are not how I determine who is the "better" Sith. I determine this mainly by how much they achieved within their own time, and I don't think the OP completely debunks and destroys the argument that Vitiate is equal or greater than Palpatine to the point where people will "Stop comparing Vitiate to Palpatine."

 

I could create a huge list of Vitiate's feats and accomplishments and battle prowess, but that does not do anything to progress the argument unless I then compare the two.

 

So in the end, I don't think your post will or even should cause people to stop comparing the two, as well written as it was. ;)

 

Well I can post more stuff for Sidious(far more), but the quotes pretty much prove that Sidious > Vitiate....I don't see how anyone can argue, against multiple sources that are stating pretty much the exact same thing.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Lol Wolfinin, what brought this sudden fury to your heart? :D

 

But seriously, all you said about Sidious is true, he is a Black Hole of the Dark Side, as stated by Dooku. But we all know that some EU materials like to overpower some characters, especially the ones from the movies. Sidious is not unbeatable, and the statement "most powerful Sith Lord of all times", wich is taken as fact, doesn't reffer only to his force powers.

 

As for Vitiate, I agree that Sidious is stronger, but you underestimate him a lot. And he achieved some objectives who Sidious was not even close to. He lived for more than 1300 years (for now), as Sidious lived for what, 93 if we consider the death of his last clone body as his final death. We know immortality was the main goal of almost all Sith Lords, Palptine especially. So in this matter, Vitiate was far more succesful.

 

And Palpatine, as near brought the Jedi and the Republic to an end, ruled an Empire who lasted for 3 decades (again, considering his final death at 11ABY). Vitiate ruled more than mileenia, and we don't know when his rule truly ended.

 

So, we don't have to throw Vitiate to trash just to praise Sidious. Both were great, powerful and accomplished amazing things. Period.

Edited by marcelo_sdk
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Well I can post more stuff for Sidious(far more), but the quotes pretty much prove that Sidious > Vitiate....I don't see how anyone can argue, against multiple sources that are stating pretty much the exact same thing.

 

Yes, I bet you can post more things on Sidious, as the EU on Sidious is huge.

 

But that misses the majority of my point. The sheer volume and impressiveness of his feats mean very little if you don't then compare them to Vitiate.

 

The people on Vitiate's side of the argument can make a huge list of amazing feats and accomplishments that Vitiate had as well, and it's only through comparing the two lists that we can discuss who is the "better" Sith Lord.

 

Presenting one huge list focusing on just one of the contenders and then stating:

 

"This list is so long and so impressive that everyone should stop debating and agree that Sidious wins," is not a successful way present an argument.

 

While your post is very impressive and shows how powerful Palpatine is, it isn't the be-all, end-all of the debate and it doesn't and shouldn't make people stop comparing the two.

Edited by Swissbob
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Lol Wolfinin, what brought this sudden fury to your heart? :D

 

But seriously, all you said about Sidious is true, he is a Black Hole of the Dark Side, as stated by Dooku. But we all know that some EU materials like to overpower some characters, especially the ones from the movies. Sidious is not unbeatable, and the statement "most powerful Sith Lord of all times", wich is taken as fact, doesn't reffer only to his force powers.

 

As for Vitiate, I agree that Sidious is stronger, but you underestimate him a lot. And he achieved some objectives who Sidious was not even close to. He lived for more than 1300 years (for now), as Sidious lived for what, 93 if we consider the death of his last clone body as his final death. We know immortality was the main goal of almost all Sith Lords, Palptine especially. So in this matter, Vitiate was far more succesful.

 

And Palpatine, as near brought the Jedi and the Republic to an end, ruled an Empire who lasted for 3 decades (again, considering his final death at 11ABY). Vitiate ruled more than mileenia, and we don't know when his rule truly ended.

 

So, we don't have to throw Vitiate to trash just to praise Sidious. Both were great, powerful and accomplished amazing things. Period.

 

I am not saying Vitiate was weak, but comparing accomplishments/feats and the like, though the main goal for the Sith was the eradication of the Jedi Order which Sidious did accomplish, immortality(which Sidious did accomplish) was only something a couple of Sith Lords wanted. Sidious has done far more, as per the EU...a side note. People need to stop acting like the movies =/= EU, its all one connected universe the movies only show a small portion to a character overall.

 

Yes, I bet you can post more things on Sidious, as the EU on Sidious is huge.

 

But that misses the majority of my point. The sheer volume and impressiveness of his feats mean very little if you don't then compare them to Vitiate.

 

The people on Vitiate's side of the argument can make a huge list of amazing feats and accomplishments that Vitiate had as well, and it's only through comparing the two lists that we can discuss who is the "better" Sith Lord.

 

Ok then Swiss, give me a list of Vitiate's accomplishments/feats.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Yes, I bet you can post more things on Sidious, as the EU on Sidious is huge.

 

But that misses the majority of my point. The sheer volume and impressiveness of his feats mean very little if you don't then compare them to Vitiate.

 

The people on Vitiate's side of the argument can make a huge list of amazing feats and accomplishments that Vitiate had as well, and it's only through comparing the two lists that we can discuss who is the "better" Sith Lord.

 

Presenting one huge list focusing on just one of the contenders and then stating:

 

"This list is so long and so impressive that everyone should stop debating and agree that Sidious wins," is not a successful way present an argument.

 

While your post is very impressive and shows how powerful Palpatine is, it isn't the be-all, end-all of the debate and it doesn't and shouldn't make people stop comparing the two.

 

Far more complicated though, since one character has been around for 30(!!!) years at least, while the other first got a name... Less than two years ago. Even so, as I said in my first post and others after, if ruling an empire for 1300 years is not impressive, not to mention something Palpatine was never able to achieve, I dunno what is.

 

Also, anyone who's been able to play the game and see what Palpatine was in the movies and in the EU, will quickly realize that one was a far more cunning and devious Sith, while the other, given the fact he lived for at least 1300 years, was more of a master of the Dark Arts. Still, to each his own... Some people just prefer to wear an eye patch, whenever it's convenient.

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Was Palpatine able to rule and / or manage an empire during 1300(!!!) years? Pretty sure we all know the answer to that.

 

An Empire that was much smaller than the GALACTIC Empire, and it also hid in the shadows. Palpatine's Empire was in control of most of the known galaxy, and even spread into the Unknown Regions.

 

Also, please point me to all of Vitiate's Super Star Destroyers, Death Stars, Eclipse Star Destroyers, World Devastators, Omega Frosts etc.

Edited by Aurbere
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An Empire that was much smaller than the GALACTIC Empire, and it also hid in the shadows. Palpatine's Empire was in control of most of the known galaxy, and even spread into the Unknown Regions.

 

Also, please point me to all of Vitiate's Super Star Destroyers, Death Stars, Eclipse Star Destroyers, World Devastators, Omega Frosts etc.

 

Hmmm... What was the Sun Razer then? The Gauntlet, the Emperor's Shadow, the Ascendant Spear, The Silencer and The Undying...?! Didn't get to read Lost Suns, did you?

 

EDIT:

 

Also, grats on the fact that you ignored the 1300 years of existence Vitiate was able to achieve, unlike Sidious, something that even his master, Darth Plagueis, kinda envied.

Edited by Darth_Wicked
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An Empire that was much smaller than the GALACTIC Empire, and it also hid in the shadows. Palpatine's Empire was in control of most of the known galaxy, and even spread into the Unknown Regions.

 

Also, please point me to all of Vitiate's Super Star Destroyers, Death Stars, Eclipse Star Destroyers, World Devastators, Omega Frosts etc.

 

There is also the fact unlike Vitiate, Sidious hid in plain sight right in the face of the Jedi to where not even the most powerful(Pre-Luke) Yoda could sense him.

 

Ok whoopie, Vitiate lived for 1,300 years....one accomplishment(which really is only given, due to the fact nothing was really going on during that time period) doesn't mean that Vitiate is Sidious' superior.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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I am not saying Vitiate was weak, but comparing accomplishments/feats and the like, though the main goal for the Sith was the eradication of the Jedi Order which Sidious did accomplish, immortality(which Sidious did accomplish) was only something a couple of Sith Lords wanted. Sidious has done far more, as per the EU...a side note. People need to stop acting like the movies =/= EU, its all one connected universe the movies only show a small portion to a character overall.

 

If he achieved immortality... why he's dead?

 

Tell me one Sith Lord under the Rule of Two who did not wanted to become immortal. Sidious, his master, his master's master. Any of them achieved? Guess is not an easy thing.

 

And yes, EU is supposed to be an extent of the movies, but some authors don't realize this. You will not agree that Vader is an extremely overpowered in most of EU content about him? The same happens with Sidious in a lot of works.

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So, let me get this straight...

 

In an effort to stop people from arguing about Vitiate and Sidious, you have constructed yet another thread that invites those same arguments? If it bothers you that people debate the two, just don't open those threads.

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If he achieved immortality... why he's dead?

 

Tell me one Sith Lord under the Rule of Two who did not wanted to become immortal. Sidious, his master, his master's master. Any of them achieved? Guess is not an easy thing.

 

And yes, EU is supposed to be an extent of the movies, but some authors don't realize this. You will not agree that Vader is an extremely overpowered in most of EU content about him? The same happens with Sidious in a lot of works.

 

There are many different types of immortality, and he only died due to the whole Wall of Light thing with the Jedi and all that noise.

 

As per Vader being overpowered in the EU?...Define overpowered? Doesn't seem that way to me.

 

In an effort to stop people from arguing about Vitiate and Sidious, you have constructed yet another thread that invites those same arguments? If it bothers you that people debate the two, just don't open those threads.

 

Oh Vent, a character you are indeed. See I could, but then that would just be bottling it all up which isn't healthy. But don't worry, this is a one time thing.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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An Empire that was much smaller than the GALACTIC Empire, and it also hid in the shadows. Palpatine's Empire was in control of most of the known galaxy, and even spread into the Unknown Regions.

 

Also, please point me to all of Vitiate's Super Star Destroyers, Death Stars, Eclipse Star Destroyers, World Devastators, Omega Frosts etc.

 

Yes, all that and still was defeated by the Rebel Alliance, an organization with short amount of resources, with a fleet composed mostly of old model's ships. As Vitiate was able to fight the Republic and achieve victory with a brilliant strategy, killing the Chancellor in the heart of the Republic.

 

And we must not forget that Vitiate was behind all attacks against the Republic since the Mandalorian Wars, so by his actions he paved the way for the First Jedi Purge. Also, who told to Revan about the Star Forge, the Foundry?

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Yes, all that and still was defeated by the Rebel Alliance, an organization with short amount of resources, with a fleet composed mostly of old model's ships. As Vitiate was able to fight the Republic and achieve victory with a brilliant strategy, killing the Chancellor in the heart of the Republic.

 

And we must not forget that Vitiate was behind all attacks against the Republic since the Mandalorian Wars, so by his actions he paved the way for the First Jedi Purge. Also, who told to Revan about the Star Forge, the Foundry?

 

Well by ROTJ, the Rebel Alliance was much better equipped and the like. Though remember, the Alliance would have been finished if it wasn't for Vader turning on Palpatine....so they were really only beaten because of such things that happened. Like a single domino falling, and everything else just collapses.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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There are many different types of immortality, and he only died due to the whole Wall of Light thing with the Jedi and all that noise.

 

There's not many different types of immortality, there are different types to achieve this, which Sidious didn't. If he just died because the Wall of Light, his failure, he should have preddicted this, the fact is he's dead.

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Ok then Swiss, give me a list of Vitiate's accomplishments/feats.

 

Well, I'm not knowledgeable enough, and don't have enough time right now anyway.

 

But you misunderstand. I don't have to provide a list to validate what I'm saying because I'm not really arguing on behalf of Vitiate. I'm not trying to "prove" that Vitiate is better. I'm not trying to convince anyone that Vitiate is the "better" Sith. While I would usually take his side instead of Palpatine's that's not what I'm trying to do here.

 

The messages I've been trying to get across are:

 

1: I thoroughly enjoyed your post! It was well written and helped me better appreciate Sidious. :D

 

2: However, this post/thread should not be and probably is not the be-all end-all of the debate. Just because you provided a huge list of Palpatine's achievements does not automatically put the debate to rest. I don't think you can say "Enough. Stop comparing Vitiate to Palpatine" just because you provided a list (no matter how long, impressive or awesome it is ;) ) .

 

So, I'm not trying to prove who is the "better" Sith.

 

I'm trying to keep the discussion/debate/comparison going.

Edited by Swissbob
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There's not many different types of immortality, there are different types to achieve this, which Sidious didn't. If he just died because the Wall of Light, his failure, he should have preddicted this, the fact is he's dead.

 

There are actually....such as not being able to die from aging, yet you can still die by normal means. Or you can just live no matter what happens.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Aurbere, stop reading this, concentrate on the BattleZone! :D

 

Seriously, I'm very curious of who will win that contest, think was the greatest clash until now (well, Plagueis vs. Vitiate was pretty damn good)

Edited by marcelo_sdk
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Well, I'm not knowledgeable enough, and don't have enough time right now anyway.

 

But you misunderstand. I don't have to provide a list to validate what I'm saying because I'm not really arguing on behalf of Vitiate. I'm not trying to "prove" that Vitiate is better. I'm not trying to convince anyone that Vitiate is the "better" Sith. While I would usually take his side instead of Palpatine's that's not what I'm trying to do here.

 

The messages I've been trying to get across are:

 

1: I thoroughly enjoyed your post! It was well written and helped me better appreciate Sidious. :D

 

2: However, this post/thread should not be and probably is not the be-all end-all of the debate. Just because you provided a huge list of Palpatine's achievements does not automatically put the debate to rest. I don't think you can say "Enough. Stop comparing Vitiate to Palpatine" just because you provided a list (no matter how long, impressive or awesome it is ;) ) .

 

So, I'm not trying to prove who is the "better" Sith.

 

I'm trying to keep the discussion/debate/comparison going.

 

I know you are, but it would help to compare so people could see. But if you don't have the info, then that is fine.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Hmmm... What was the Sun Razer then? The Gauntlet, the Emperor's Shadow, the Ascendant Spear, The Silencer and The Undying...?! Didn't get to read Lost Suns, did you?

 

EDIT:

 

Also, grats on the fact that you ignored the 1300 years of existence Vitiate was able to achieve, unlike Sidious, something that even his master, Darth Plagueis, kinda envied.

 

No I didn't, but I'm not impressed by those 'superweapons'

 

When you can show me planet destroying superweapons, then you can get back to me.

 

And also, living 1300 years is all he has on Palpatine. But I still don't see how that makes him so special. He accomplished it through a ritual. Palpatine's spirit was immortal through his own power.

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No I didn't, but I'm not impressed by those 'superweapons'

 

Doesn't matter if you're impressed or not. They exist and at least one of them is actually quite relevant for one of the storylines and the end of the Treaty of Coruscant.

 

When you can show me planet destroying superweapons, then you can get back to me.

 

I already did. You just chose to ignore it, since it doesn't fit with your grasping of things in the SW Universe.

 

And also, living 1300 years is all he has on Palpatine.

 

Which is a small feat, right? Not impressive... At all.

 

But I still don't see how that makes him so special.

 

It makes him special because no other was able to achieve it. Simple.

 

He accomplished it through a ritual. Palpatine's spirit was immortal through his own power.

 

I assume what Palpatine achieved wasn't in any way related to his hold over the Dark Side of the Force then? Just like Vitiate? No offense, but right now, you're just being silly, arguing for the sake of arguing and not bringing anything new to the table. Concede defeat and move on, please.

Edited by Darth_Wicked
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Doesn't matter if you're impressed or not. They exist and at least one of them is actually quite relevant for one of the storylines and the end of the Treaty of Coruscant.

 

I am aware of them, and I did not deny their existence. However, you seem to be of the opinion that the Sith Empire's Superweapons make it better than the Galactic Empire, even though I can show evidence of the Galactic Empire having more of them.

 

I already did. You just chose to ignore it, since it doesn't fit with your grasping of things in the SW Universe.

 

Which one was it? (honest question)

 

Which is a small feat, right? Not impressive... At all.

 

It is impressive that he lived for so long. But then again, we don't see obsessive fanboyism over Odan-Urr, Ood Bnar, and Yoda.

 

It makes him special because no other was able to achieve it. Simple.

 

Ood Bnar lived far longer than Vitiate.

 

I assume what Palpatine achieved wasn't in any way related to his hold over the Dark Side of the Force then? Just like Vitiate? No offense, but right now, you're just being silly, arguing for the sake of arguing and not bringing anything new to the table. Concede defeat and move on, please.

 

Concede defeat? You're seem pretty upset, don't you. I would provide further evidence to prove the Galactic Empire's superiority, but it simply doesn't matter for two reasons. One: You'll simply ignore it and say something like 'Vitiate's rule was longer!' or some such. Two: It doesn't really fit for this discussion. This isn't about Empires. This is about individual characters.

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Vitiate really ain't all that great. He's very far reaching, which allows him to be a great manipulator and "manager" but his personal strength is almost non existent. He relies on puppets and proxies to do literally everything. Thats a major Achilles' heel. He has no voice right now, which leaves him especially weakened. Without it, he has no direct way of fending off an attempt at his life, he can only guide his servants to defend his corporeal vessel, and really the Wrath is the only one he has thats capable of doing all that much against something like a council mutiny or another direct assault by the Jedi. The Hands serve more of a cleric role and the royal guard are just glorified henchmen. Powerful henchmen but no dark lords. So take out the Wrath and Vitiate is pretty much just a sack of water waiting to be ended.
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