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Stop comparing Vitiate to Palpatine...


Wolfninjajedi

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Time for a new perspective:

 

They are equal in power

 

They both achieved the Most Powerful Sith Ever Accolade

They both were immensly powerful

They both required the forces intervention to stop (Sidious through the Chosen One initially, and the Wall of Light in EU, while Vitiate's death was shown to Scourge 3 centuries earliers by the force, causing him to betray Surik and Revan)

They Both achieved feats that were unmatched by any other sith ever.

 

However, if Vitiate had a Death Star, Palpatine wouldn't have been born. Just sayin.

 

Also, Palpatine was destroyed when 1000 years of sith evolution caused the jedi to go into hiding for 19 years, and after ~22 years his empire fell apart again. Meanwhile, Vitiates Empire waged a 30 year war on the republic, and has lasted through a further 10 years of peace before Vitiates first loss ever... And Vitiate will come back. I can guarantee it, because his original body still isn't dead AND Vitiate has mastered essence transfer.

 

It will probably be for the 2nd or 3rd expansion though.

 

AH yes but Vitiate NEVER conquers the entire galaxy so he rules over a galactic empire for 0 years :p

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I nice idea, but one entirely unsupported by the facts.

 

So what makes you come to that conclusion?

Palpatines Feats of strength can be made into pathetic attempts at even reaching a fraction of Vitiates power if you say:

 

"The Jedi order became lazy with too much peace, and as such were much weaker than they should be, especially since the sith took care of most of the threats the jedi could have actually used to strengthen themselves because the sith wanted to remain secret, resulting in the confrontation between Palpatine and the top 4 Jedi being a no-contest that Vitiate would have won Instantly without even needing Anakins help, and the Yoda Followup would have ended about as quickly"

On the other hand, you can say "Palpatine was much stronger because he made a force storm and killed a fleet with it once and the force stopped him and stuff."

 

And while I want vitiate to be considered more powerful (too bad he didn't have the death star or sun crusher, which would have ended this argument before it even started...) the fact is I consider it to be a tie.

 

Also, Palpatine didn't do a good job of controlling Luke when Luke 'turned' to the dark side - due to the freedom Palpatine gave Luke and the fact that Luke only submitted so he wouldn't die, Luke was able to get enough into place to stop Palpatines plans, and eventually resulted in Palpatines permanent death.

Edited by TACeMossie
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So what makes you come to that conclusion?

Palpatines Feats of strength can be made into pathetic attempts at even reaching a fraction of Vitiates power if you say "The Jedi order became lazy with too much peace, and as such were much weaker than they should be, especially since the sith took care of most of the threats the jedi could have actually used to strengthen themselves because the sith wanted to remain secret, resulting in the confrontation between Palpatine and the top 4 Jedi being a no-contest that Vitiate would have won quicker without even needing anakins help"

On the other hand, you can say "Palpatine was much stronger because he made a force storm and killed a fleet with it once and the force stopped him and stuff."

 

And while I want vitiate to be considered more powerful (too bad he didn't have the death star or sun crusher, which would have ended this argument before it even started...) the fact is I consider it to be a tie.

 

Also, Palpatine didn't do a good job of controlling Luke when Luke 'turned' to the dark side - due to the freedom Palpatine gave Luke and the fact that Luke only submitted so he wouldn't die, Luke was able to get enough into place to stop Palpatines plans, and eventually resulted in Palpatines permanent death.

All the evidence you require is located in the OP. Simply put, Sidious surpasses the Sith Emperor's power in almost every field with the exception of Sith Magic. However we cannot hold this against Sidious as the ability to wield such power is an innate talent, a talent that some - such as Sidious - simply do not possess. But this does not make them any less powerful. The Force storm in itself, the pinnacle of dark side mastery, alone is enough to secure his position.

 

And you'll find any and all attempts to make Sidious' power look "pathetic" will collapse under scrutiny. For example Windu's Force abilities surpass practically every Jedi in the Old Republic era and more than challenge the prowess of the NJO era. And his development of Vaapad took lightsaber combat to a whole new level. Kit Fisto is also a considerably powerful Force user in comparison to other eras.

 

And finally, you seem to be confusing Force abilities with achievements in general. This thread is not for the discussion of who had the bigger empire, or whose plans were more successful, but who was more powerful in the Force.

 

P.S. If you really want to compare the Sith Emperor to other exceptionally powerful Force users, then look to Darth Caedus. Who is more on the Sith Emperor's level. Though you'll find the general consensus is that Caedus is stronger.

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All the evidence you require is located in the OP. Simply put, Sidious surpasses the Sith Emperor's power in almost every field with the exception of Sith Magic. However we cannot hold this against Sidious as the ability to wield such power is an innate talent, a talent that some - such as Sidious - simply do not possess. But this does not make them any less powerful. The Force storm in itself, the pinnacle of dark side mastery, alone is enough to secure his position.

 

And you'll find any and all attempts to make Sidious' power look "pathetic" will collapse under scrutiny. For example Windu's Force abilities surpass practically every Jedi in the Old Republic era and more than challenge the prowess of the NJO era. And his development of Vaapad took lightsaber combat to a whole new level. Kit Fisto is also a considerably powerful Force user in comparison to other eras.

 

And finally, you seem to be confusing Force abilities with achievements in general. This thread is not for the discussion of who had the bigger empire, or whose plans were more successful, but who was more powerful in the Force.

 

P.S. If you really want to compare the Sith Emperor to other exceptionally powerful Force users, then look to Darth Caedus. Who is more on the Sith Emperor's level. Though you'll find the general consensus is that Caedus is stronger.

 

My point came across wrong. What I was saying as that a majority of the achievements were relative to the general skill of the average force user of the time. If the Old Republic Era had stronger force users, then Vitiate's achievements were more impressive. But if the Clone Wars had stronger force users, then Palpatines achievements were more impressive.

 

e.g. Vitiates Ritual required that Vitiate, at his least powerful for thousands of years, had to bind the will of 8000 sith lords to his own. Mental Domination of 8000 of the strongest sith the empire had to offer. And afterwards, their power was added to his own, as well as even the tiniest amount of force potential from everything else on the planet. If the sith lords together could beat Mace, and Mace was able to best Palpatine until Anakin chopped his hand off, then what does that say about how much more powerful Vitiate would be vs Palpatine?

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Actually, something just occured to me.

 

Vitiate was The Emperors Sith name. Once the ritual was completed that made Vitiate into the Emperor, he dropped the name Vitiate. Therefore, Vitiate refers to The Emperor pre-ritual

Meanwhile, Palpatine went by Palpatine until death, only occasionally using the name Sidious.

 

This means that The Emperor = Palpatine > Vitiate

But since we are only comparing Palpatine to Vitiate, its Palpatine > Vitiate

There we go, I settled it.

Edited by TACeMossie
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My point came across wrong. What I was saying as that a majority of the achievements were relative to the general skill of the average force user of the time. If the Old Republic Era had stronger force users, then Vitiate's achievements were more impressive. But if the Clone Wars had stronger force users, then Palpatines achievements were more impressive.

 

e.g. Vitiates Ritual required that Vitiate, at his least powerful for thousands of years, had to bind the will of 8000 sith lords to his own. Mental Domination of 8000 of the strongest sith the empire had to offer. And afterwards, their power was added to his own, as well as even the tiniest amount of force potential from everything else on the planet. If the sith lords together could beat Mace, and Mace was able to best Palpatine until Anakin chopped his hand off, then what does that say about how much more powerful Vitiate would be vs Palpatine?

I recognize your point, but what I'm saying is that their is no need to judge Jedi Orders collectively - which I regard as equal - when we have the information at hand to directly compare individuals such as Revan, Windu, Fisto, Meetra etc. Regardless Sidious' perfomance against the Jedi Council is far from his most impressive of feats.

 

Concerning the Nathema ritual, there are a few vital points that we have to take into account here:

 

 

  1. The Sith Lords that the Sith Emperor dominated were dominated willing, they wished to partake in the ritual which made their minds more susceptible to assault. Much like Kaan was able to take control of the minds of his followers when enacting the Force bomb ritual. And Kaan pales in comparison to the Sith Emperor.
     
     
  2. The mental domination was a product of Sith Magic, in particular Qâzoi Kyantuska - a power that has been replicated (albeit on a lesser level) by the most rudimentary and inexperienced of sorcerers. Essentially it does not require a great deal of raw power to perform, but rather a deep level of understanding.
     
     
  3. The ritual clearly did not literally increase the Sith Emperor's Force ability by the sum of 8,000 Sith, else he would have effortlessly defeated the likes of Revan and the HoT. Instead we can only assume that energy was expended in the performance of the ritual itself, and used to sustain the Sith Emperor's longevity.

 

And in the end, there is no need to speculate on how powerful said ritual may have made the Sith Emperor. For we possess enough feats to compare with Sidious' to know that he still falls short of Palpatine's power.

 

P.S. The only reason Windu was able to face Sidious in combat was thanks to Vaapad which he used to siphon the Sith Lord's power and use it against him. In reality Sidious is a considerably more powerful Force user.

Edited by Beniboybling
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All the evidence you require is located in the OP. Simply put, Sidious surpasses the Sith Emperor's power in almost every field with the exception of Sith Magic. However we cannot hold this against Sidious as the ability to wield such power is an innate talent, a talent that some - such as Sidious - simply do not possess. But this does not make them any less powerful. The Force storm in itself, the pinnacle of dark side mastery, alone is enough to secure his position.

 

And you'll find any and all attempts to make Sidious' power look "pathetic" will collapse under scrutiny. For example Windu's Force abilities surpass practically every Jedi in the Old Republic era and more than challenge the prowess of the NJO era. And his development of Vaapad took lightsaber combat to a whole new level. Kit Fisto is also a considerably powerful Force user in comparison to other eras.

 

And finally, you seem to be confusing Force abilities with achievements in general. This thread is not for the discussion of who had the bigger empire, or whose plans were more successful, but who was more powerful in the Force.

 

P.S. If you really want to compare the Sith Emperor to other exceptionally powerful Force users, then look to Darth Caedus. Who is more on the Sith Emperor's level. Though you'll find the general consensus is that Caedus is stronger.

 

Actually Beni, Sidious is quite well varied in regards to Sith Magic. Creating Sith Spawn, making Force Nexus(making one of the strongest ones in the galaxy), haunting dreams, implanting dreams, giving people a portion of power to make Dark side adepts, influencing Jedi emotions across the galaxy etc

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Actually Beni, Sidious is quite well varied in regards to Sith Magic. Creating Sith Spawn, making Force Nexus(making one of the strongest ones in the galaxy), haunting dreams, implanting dreams, giving people a portion of power to make Dark side adepts, influencing Jedi emotions across the galaxy etc
I wouldn't say any of those were the product of Sith Magic, but Alchemy. And I'm not sure they are one and the same.
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I wouldn't say any of those were the product of Sith Magic, but Alchemy. And I'm not sure they are one and the same.

 

Well ok the making of the Sith Spawn and influencing Jedi emotions were the result of both Alchemy(former) and Magic(latter) at the same time. Though it is noted that he caused anxiety within the Jedi through Sith rituals. The nexus was of him drawing his energy onto the planet. The dream thing was the same and so forth. Though it seems to me that both would be one and the same really, the Magic being used to make things with Alchemy(the Sith Spawn/Influencing the Jedi, the Spawn was the result of all that).

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Well ok the making of the Sith Spawn and influencing Jedi emotions were the result of both Alchemy(former) and Magic(latter) at the same time. Though it is noted that he caused anxiety within the Jedi through Sith rituals. The nexus was of him drawing his energy onto the planet. The dream thing was the same and so forth. Though it seems to me that both would be one and the same really, the Magic being used to make things with Alchemy(the Sith Spawn/Influencing the Jedi, the Spawn was the result of all that).
Well *shrug* we can at least say that Sidious did not possess the same level of affinity for Sith Magic as Vitiate. Edited by Beniboybling
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  • 5 months later...
Impressive original post but pointless as is the discussion. At least some, if not all, of the sources mentioned have been revised. In at least one instance off the top of my head the statement regarding Palpatine's power was revised from the most powerful sith lord ever to ONE of the most powerful sith lord's ever. The point here is the chronology is constantly evolving so there really is no good way to say this one or that one was most powerful. Sorry Sidious fanbois.
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Impressive original post but pointless as is the discussion. At least some, if not all, of the sources mentioned have been revised. In at least one instance off the top of my head the statement regarding Palpatine's power was revised from the most powerful sith lord ever to ONE of the most powerful sith lord's ever. The point here is the chronology is constantly evolving so there really is no good way to say this one or that one was most powerful. Sorry Sidious fanbois.

 

Credibility = lost

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He disagrees with you, and that's the only thing you can point to. Wow.

 

Hes flat out wrong though, and likely won't change. There are still statements being releases in sourcebooks and books, describing him as the most powerful sith.

That, and we judge on feats too, in which Sidious is superior... Evidenced by, you guessed it, the OP

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Impressive original post but pointless as is the discussion. At least some, if not all, of the sources mentioned have been revised. In at least one instance off the top of my head the statement regarding Palpatine's power was revised from the most powerful sith lord ever to ONE of the most powerful sith lord's ever. The point here is the chronology is constantly evolving so there really is no good way to say this one or that one was most powerful. Sorry Sidious fanbois.
Let me guess, Wookieepedia? :rolleyes:

 

None of these sources have been updated/replaced yet as far as I'm aware.

Edited by Beniboybling
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There are still statements being releases in sourcebooks and books, describing him as the most powerful sith.

 

Have to ask, and maybe it's come up before... But I've seen this debate rage for as long as I've been around here, and I'm not going to read all 18 pages of the same old back and forth.

 

What happens when Disney rewrites what's Canon? I mean at that point some, many, most??? of the sources people list will be invalid. Undoubtedly most of the post RotJ stuff will be eliminated from Canon to make way for the new movies.

 

So if/when the new movies come out and Sid isn't even part of the story line... Then what? No snark here, I'm really curious what happens to this debate if Sid's end is being thrown down that shaft on the DS2 and all the post RotJ EU stuff is no longer valid.

Edited by VanorDM
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Have to ask, and maybe it's come up before... But I've seen this debate rage for as long as I've been around here, and I'm not going to read all 18 pages of the same old back and forth.

 

What happens when Disney rewrites what's Canon? I mean at that point some, many, most??? of the sources people list will be invalid. Undoubtedly most of the post RotJ stuff will be eliminated from Canon to make way for the new movies.

 

So if/when the new movies come out and Sid isn't even part of the story line... Then what? No snark here, I'm really curious what happens to this debate if Sid's end is being thrown down that shaft on the DS2 and all the post RotJ EU stuff is no longer valid.

 

Then he has all of the pre-post-ROTJ sources calling him the most powerful Sith Lord.

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