In swtor, takes place 3500+ years before darth vader, han, luke. 3500+ years later, no sith empire and even darth sidious said ' this is the first galactic empire' in the clones wars. what was the sith empire's downfall?

please correct if i am wrong

Lots of things happened. You had Darth Ruin and his Empire, then the Dark Brotherhood, and then the Rule of Two Sith. In each of these cases you always had Jedi opposition or the Sith turning on themselves and hindering progress.

You could make the case that the Rule of Two Sith were biding their time and steadily growing in power with each successive Master and Apprentice until you finally get to the all powerful Sidious and Vader who succeeded where others failed.

Aside from specific events, its basically because the dark side and the way they "run things" is stupid. Monumentally, fatally, ridiculously stupid. Sure, it's fun to play, but if you really think about most of the effects of truly making Dark Side choices (not even in this game, necessarily, but in general), you'll realize how an empire governed by these principles is destined to fall.

Case in point: the final choice in the Battle for Ilum flashpoint. Dark Side = weaker empire. Light Side = Stronger Empire.

According to Lucas, the one major Sith Empire to exist, the one that spread oppression throughout the galaxy (and is referenced in the prequel movies and the series), This Sith Empire, was destroyed from within. The republic didnt manage to destroy it, rather it destroyed itself through civil wars raged by Sith lords betraying eachother, until there was literally not a single trace left of the empire. It had all the power and ability to conquer the entire galaxy, and got close to it, but destroyed itself. Fitting i would say.

Its also why Bioware doesnt need to have the republic pull out a dues ex machina or a McGuffin to defeat the empire, just let the good times roll and the lore works itself out thanks to the Dark Side's backstabbing ways.

According to Lucas, the one major Sith Empire to exist, the one that spread oppression throughout the galaxy (and is referenced in the prequel movies and the series), This Sith Empire, was destroyed from within. The republic didnt manage to destroy it, rather it destroyed itself through civil wars raged by Sith lords betraying eachother, until there was literally not a single trace left of the empire. It had all the power and ability to conquer the entire galaxy, and got close to it, but destroyed itself. Fitting i would say.

 

Its also why Bioware doesnt need to have the republic pull out a dues ex machina or a McGuffin to defeat the empire, just let the good times roll and the lore works itself out thanks to the Dark Side's backstabbing ways.

I beileve if the sith empire as able to control its dark side "pyschopathic" tendancies and stop backstabbing each other they would be able to totally obliterate the republic in war.

This will never happen though because in George Lucas' simple world of good and evil, evil must always lose in the end.

I beileve if the sith empire as able to control its dark side "pyschopathic" tendancies and stop backstabbing each other they would be able to totally obliterate the republic in war.

 

This will never happen though because in George Lucas' simple world of good and evil, evil must always lose in the end.

Although one might wonder if it's really good vs evil after playing Republic Belsavis. And the chairman of the Senate's penal oversight committee is right there in the thick of it. I thought what the Republic was doing there was bad, and then I did the trooper story. Wow. More and more I feel like the Republic is only somewhat less evil than the Empire, only more hypocritical about it.

mylordmylordmylordmylord

*Repeat x100 times*

There, no elaboration needed. 90% of the Empire's citizens are brain dead.

Imperial officers and soldiers are somewhat competent, but Sith are complete nutcases, and since the Imperials are always subservient to the Sith, the Empire is screwed.

Case in point, Balmorra vs Taris.

The Republic invades Balmorra and retakes it, using their military and local militias to their fullest potential in recapturing a world that the Empire already spent tons of resources claiming, and a world with strategic importance in Republic space, with massive military garrisons and weapons manufacturing facilities able to contribute to the war.

The Empire invades Taris and tries to destroy it, throwing wave after wave of their military at it while the Republic mainly arms the local colonists to fight back in a guerilla war. While the Republic spent a lot of resources on rebuilding Taris, it doesn't compare to what it cost the Empire to take Balmorra in the first war, nor consolidate their conquest. And what does conquering Taris bring to the Empire? "Demoralizing the Republic and proving that you can't resist the power of the Sith".

So basically... you traded the most powerful weapons-manufacturing plant in the galaxy, for a toxic wasteland that was barely habitable to begin with... as a propoganda stunt?

YOU ARE MADE OF STUPID!

The Empire invades Taris and tries to destroy it, throwing wave after wave of their military at it while the Republic mainly arms the local colonists to fight back in a guerilla war. While the Republic spent a lot of resources on rebuilding Taris, it doesn't compare to what it cost the Empire to take Balmorra in the first war, nor consolidate their conquest. And what does conquering Taris bring to the Empire? "Demoralizing the Republic and proving that you can't resist the power of the Sith".

 

So basically... you traded the most powerful weapons-manufacturing plant in the galaxy, for a toxic wasteland that was barely habitable to begin with... as a propoganda stunt?

 

YOU ARE MADE OF STUPID!

Maybe you missed it, but "canon" in SWTOR is that the Empire did destroy Taris. It's a Republic starting world, but Imperial characters don't go there till mid 30s. The imperial bases don't even exist on Taris when you do your Republic storyline. I think the Republic story on Taris is much dumber (we're colonizing Taris for propaganda!). The Republic and Empire both put a fair amount of resources into Taris, and the Empire wins that fight.

Unfortunately, IMO, most of the other storylines are concurrent so you just have to pretend one faction or the other "really" won.

My point is that conquering Taris was a really stupid thing to do, because it wasted resources that could have been used to defend Balmorra. The Empire traded Balmorra for Taris because of Sith politics, losing a massive military asset just because Sith get really obsessed with their own image.

Token displays of power and strength like that are rather common occurrences throughout history. The Empire's policy on Taris is nothing new nor innovative. It shows anyone who might be watching from the sidelines that you mean business and these are the lengths you'll go to and it demoralizes civilians and military units alike.

If you spent all day building a massive city from Legos while your little brother or sister watches from the corner, when me and 10 of my friends walk in and proceeded to destroy your Lego utopia, what would happen?

You might get mad, but hey there is eleven of us, you might get frustrated and walk away leaving your Lego city in rubble, you might cry and we make fun of you, you might attempt to rebuild multiple times and we just smash it again and again until you give up. Now do you think the little brother or sister that was watching as you built the Lego city and us destroying it,will even attempt to build anything with the Legos? Are you going to attempt to build a Lego city elsewhere? Are you going to be able to do it without looking over your shoulder?

You can't really say the Empire traded Balmorra for Taris. The Republic fought hard to reclaim Balmorra with the help of the Resistance and you have no idea what resources or if the Empire could commit any resources to holding or retaking Balmorra.

People tend to forget in terms of size and population the Republic is vastly larger than the Empire. The Imperials only came close to defeating the Republic once and for all through speed of force, shock and awe and a desire to enact revenge on the Republic for how they acted during the end of the Great Hyperspace War. They would have succeeded if it hadn't been for you know who and now that the Republic has it's footing and the Empire no longer has the element of surprise, the Republic is pushing back hard.

Maybe you missed it, but "canon" in SWTOR is that the Empire did destroy Taris. It's a Republic starting world, but Imperial characters don't go there till mid 30s. The imperial bases don't even exist on Taris when you do your Republic storyline. I think the Republic story on Taris is much dumber (we're colonizing Taris for propaganda!). The Republic and Empire both put a fair amount of resources into Taris, and the Empire wins that fight.

 

Unfortunately, IMO, most of the other storylines are concurrent so you just have to pretend one faction or the other "really" won.

No most of of the planet storylines have pretty clear "winners" or at least advantages for one side or the other.

The flashpoints are the only thing that really can go one way or the other, and its hard to say who has what cannon wise.(With the exception of Maelstrom Prison and The Foundry as they can only end one way)

By the end of any planet storyline there is a clear win/lose for either side. They then try to expand on it with the bonus series to show some more meat on the bones.

Flashpoints are such big dramatic stories that its hard to say who "won". I mean if the Alusis really was so powerful and awesome, then winning it for either side would be a huge boon.

If your side wins Colecoid favor and receives new weapon shipments, then the whole tide of the war would have changed, etc, etc.

 

If you spent all day building a massive city from Legos while your little brother or sister watches from the corner, when me and 10 of my friends walk in and proceeded to destroy your Lego utopia, what would happen?

Well if we are comparing it to Taris-Balmorra, what would happen is that while you destroy my Lego city, I go to your house while you're away, steal all your money, and use that money to pay off some local gangers to come over and beat you up the next time you try to break my Legos.

That's kind of my point, the Empire was so focused on the relatively trivial conquest of Taris that they completley lost track of the fact that they are in a war where supply lines and military technology are far more important, because neither side will surrender. Ever.

No most of of the planet storylines have pretty clear "winners" or at least advantages for one side or the other.

The flashpoints are the only thing that really can go one way or the other, and its hard to say who has what cannon wise.(With the exception of Maelstrom Prison and The Foundry as they can only end one way)

 

By the end of any planet storyline there is a clear win/lose for either side. They then try to expand on it with the bonus series to show some more meat on the bones.

That's not remotely true. Alderaan, Hoth, Tattooine, and Nar Shadaa all have functionally identical storylines:

Alderaan - Fight against the opposing faction, kill King Ulgo, and help the Panteers crown a new king. Player's faction "wins."

Tattooine - Deal with Sand Raiders and face the Rakata prisoner.

Hoth - Desperately fight off attacks by the opposing faction and secure your own presence. Heck, some of the planet quests are almost exactly identical in resolution.

Nar Shadaa - Secure aid from the Hutts.

Belsavis - Stop the Esh-ka.

I've never finished Republic Correllia or Voss, but I strongly suspect both end with the Voss ignoring the opposing faction's embassy and with Correllia firmly in the PC's hands. The only planets where we can say with certainty what happened are Tython, Ord Mantell, Hutta, Korriban (starting worlds) and Taris and Balmorra, because the Imperial and Republic stories are consecutive rather than concurrent.

If you think Alderaan, for example, clearly shows one faction or the other winning, you're either delusional or clueless as to how the quests on the opposite faction work. We're left to imagine whatever we think really happened for most of the planets.

That's kind of my point, the Empire was so focused on the relatively trivial conquest of Taris that they completley lost track of the fact that they are in a war where supply lines and military technology are far more important, because neither side will surrender. Ever.

You're assuming this is a zero-sum game and that these events are taking place at the same time and there weren't other factors keeping the Empire from reinforcing Balmorra. In fact, Balmorra is deep in Republic space whereas Taris is in Imperial space.

But if we want to talk about stupidity, how about Hoth? The Empire uses a small force to harass the Republic who are searching for salvage. The Republic seems to think they'll win the war on Hoth; meanwhile the Empire is laughing at the resources they are pissing away on a glorified salvage operation. The Republic looks even more stupid when you consider that they're looking for yet another superweapon that they somehow lost the schematics for and only ever built one. Yet, a band of pirates on Hoth of all places manages to reverse engineer and mass-produce the thing. But, yeah, guys, I'm sure *this* will be the weapon that ends the war, and not one of those half-dozen other superweapons we've already chased down for you.

That's not even getting into the general incompetence and corruption you see at all levels in the Republic military. It's embarrassing. Heck, on Quesh, the CO was ready to roll over and die after his XO got captured/defected, despite all the previous victories.

You're assuming this is a zero-sum game and that these events are taking place at the same time and there weren't other factors keeping the Empire from reinforcing Balmorra.

Well yes. The scientific method demansd that I base my speculations on observable evidence before considering variables that I have no proof exist.

But if we want to talk about stupidity, how about Hoth? The Empire uses a small force to harass the Republic who are searching for salvage.

I always found that really odd. In the quests (on both sides), the Empire clearly isn't using "small mobile forces", but have entire siege units set up around Aurek base, devote resources to fighting the White Maw in several places instead of the Republic... I get that the idea is that Hoth is supposed to be a deception set about by Imperial leaders (again proving my point that Sith are stupid, Imperial Army/Navy personnel are much more competent) but the game itself doesn't properly showcase this.

At least on Belsavis, the quests do give the feeling that the Republic is struggling to contain the situation instead of nuking the site from orbit while withdrawing their forces (since Belsavis doesn't exactly have any tactical value making it worth defending, and the Republic asking you to take prisoners alive in many quests implies that they are staying because of their own rather naïve idealism) while the Empire keeps messing everything up for them.

Well yes. The scientific method demansd that I base my speculations on observable evidence before considering variables that I have no proof exist.

Um... what? We're talking about military operations, here, not evolution of a gas into an Erlenmeyer flask. Part of making military decisions involves considering factors you can't observe. There's a reason neither historians nor tacticians are taught "the scientific method." Ignoring other possible factors is a good way to get an answer you like, though. A major consideration you're ignoring is the fact that the Imperials on Balmorra had every confidence of winning--and would have, without the PC. They had a fairly solid plan, if you think about it. It's always rough going against a character with plot armor, though.

I always found that really odd. In the quests (on both sides), the Empire clearly isn't using "small mobile forces", but have entire siege units set up around Aurek base, devote resources to fighting the White Maw in several places instead of the Republic...

I chalk it up to bad writing. They wanted to give the Republic quests the same urgency early on that the Imperial ones do, and instead of fighting pirates they made it the Empire even though neither story makes a lick of sense when taken with the other.

At least on Belsavis, the quests do give the feeling that the Republic is struggling to contain the situation instead of nuking the site from orbit while withdrawing their forces (since Belsavis doesn't exactly have any tactical value making it worth defending, and the Republic asking you to take prisoners alive in many quests implies that they are staying because of their own rather naïve idealism) while the Empire keeps messing everything up for them.

These prison guards support a system that keeps third-generation inmates who haven't been convicted of anything, and then does medical tests on them and pits them against each other in war games. How do you accuse them of idealism? Not all of them knew everything, but certainly the most senior guards did. Sometimes I wonder if the guy who wrote Belsavis secretly supports capital punishment and is just making fun of people who think the death penalty is wrong.

That's not remotely true. Alderaan, Hoth, Tattooine, and Nar Shadaa all have functionally identical storylines:

 

<Snip>

 

I've never finished Republic Correllia or Voss, but I strongly suspect both end with the Voss ignoring the opposing faction's embassy and with Correllia firmly in the PC's hands. The only planets where we can say with certainty what happened are Tython, Ord Mantell, Hutta, Korriban (starting worlds) and Taris and Balmorra, because the Imperial and Republic stories are consecutive rather than concurrent.

 

If you think Alderaan, for example, clearly shows one faction or the other winning, you're either delusional or clueless as to how the quests on the opposite faction work. We're left to imagine whatever we think really happened for most of the planets.

Voss is kind of up in the air at the end, they remain neutral but seem to slightly be leaning towards the Republic. Imperial Corellia stories clearly take place before the Republic, Imps end up taking control of the planet with Darth Decimus and the Republic swoops in, frees the planet from Imperial control and kills Decimus.

Any doubt about Corellia's fate is answered by the Black Hole dailies, which tell you that the Empire has lost control on Corellia and is retreating, albeit using a scorched earth, salt the fields,burn the villages policy as they go.

Well if we are comparing it to Taris-Balmorra, what would happen is that while you destroy my Lego city, I go to your house while you're away, steal all your money, and use that money to pay off some local gangers to come over and beat you up the next time you try to break my Legos.

 

That's kind of my point, the Empire was so focused on the relatively trivial conquest of Taris that they completley lost track of the fact that they are in a war where supply lines and military technology are far more important, because neither side will surrender. Ever.

As a RL Marine, the Imperial policy on Taris reeks of the typical military situation of " Ok,here are your resources,here is a set number of forces for you to use, this is all you get no reserves,air support or artillery is coming now, do whatever you have to do to hold the position or make the enemy pay." Things like this happen all the time in RL military where you are handed a limited amount of resources, asinine RoE and are ordered to control or maintain multiple objectives.

Allowing the Republic to rebuild Taris,which is in Imperial space, would allow them a foothold in the Imperial regions. Regardless of how they went about it, not allowing the Republic that foothold is a victory. It would have been nice to hold on to Balmorra but the fact that the Resistance was effective, there was an influx of Republic military support and that Balmorra is located in Republic space hindered the Empire's ability to hold onto it.

I can tell you from experience, fighting behind enemy lines with limited resources and resupply options is not easy. Throw in an effective insurgency and support from a large military force and it's just a matter of time before you lose your objectives or you resort to a scorched earth policy to ensure neither side benefits.

Voss is kind of up in the air at the end, they remain neutral but seem to slightly be leaning towards the Republic. Imperial Corellia stories clearly take place before the Republic, Imps end up taking control of the planet with Darth Decimus and the Republic swoops in, frees the planet from Imperial control and kills Decimus.

 

Any doubt about Corellia's fate is answered by the Black Hole dailies, which tell you that the Empire has lost control on Corellia and is retreating, albeit using a scorched earth, salt the fields,burn the villages policy as they go.

Gotcha. I just finished Voss today on my consular, after I made that post. I could actually see an argument for both the Republic and Imperial stories on Voss being "true" with Voss leaning Imperial, depending on what you tell the Three.

As a RL Marine, the Imperial policy on Taris reeks of the typical military situation of " Ok,here are your resources,here is a set number of forces for you to use, this is all you get no reserves,air support or artillery is coming now, do whatever you have to do to hold the position or make the enemy pay." Things like this happen all the time in RL military where you are handed a limited amount of resources, asinine RoE and are ordered to control or maintain multiple objectives.

Hey, how about that, I just got out. Spent my last few years on MSG, but I was an 0651. You? Out of curiosity, have you played the trooper, and if so, what's your opinion?

And this is why Darth Bane destroyed Kaan's order. Because an Empire of Sith is inferior to a Sith Empire.

The difference? The former is an empire made up of Sith, the latter is an Empire ruled a by two (or so) Sith.

One has constant idiot ball juggling due to the side-effects of the dark side, the other has people like Palatine and Vader.

"Darth Bane: getting secret orders of evil space-faring quasi-mystical force users RIGHT since 1000 BBY!"

Gotcha. I just finished Voss today on my consular, after I made that post. I could actually see an argument for both the Republic and Imperial stories on Voss being "true" with Voss leaning Imperial, depending on what you tell the Three.

Gotcha. I just finished Voss today on my consular, after I made that post. I could actually see an argument for both the Republic and Imperial stories on Voss being "true" with Voss leaning Imperial, depending on what you tell the Three.

 

 

 

Hey, how about that, I just got out. Spent my last few years on MSG, but I was an 0651. You? Out of curiosity, have you played the trooper, and if so, what's your opinion?

I was 0321 until they started pooling us all together for trial runs under MARSOC when it first formed, nowdays the MOS is 0372. I've been out for a few years now,was offered a choice to pursue my career further in my B Billet or get medicaled out and become a civilian after I was injured, took the civilian path and am co running a PMC with a bunch of other devil dogs.

I have played a Trooper, I enjoyed it because it is a straight up military story and BW doesn't seem to shy away from the fact that grunts often get screwed over by the PoGs,REMFs, and guys gunning for their stars and the Trooper story has this in spades.