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Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0


Beniboybling

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This plan still suffers from some problems:

 

 

  • When the HK units cut through the hull, the bridge will be informed of a hull breach and can initiate lock down procedures. That will lock down the bridge and blast doors, as well as activate defenses including assault droids designed to repel boarding parties. Granted the droids will be stealthed but they'll have to cut through the blast doors, which will all be guarded.
     
     
  • The Sith Interdictors are crawling with troopers, assassins, assault droids and likely a Sith Commander, who are more than capable of repelling HK units. What's more the bridge will be heavily guarded/sealed.
     
     
  • If the droids manage to blow the windows on the bridge from the inside or the outside the automatic sealup would be activated, some might be pulled out but any Sith on board would survive, as would the troops at the very far end. 1 Sith Lord is enough to take on 3 or 4 units. And would have enough time to telepathically alert Traya to what has happened and call for reinforcements.
     
     
  • The bridge controls can be locked down or transferred. That way the HK units would have to hack into the systems, giving the Sith enough time to send some forces to destroy them.
     
     
  • Venting the entire ship will not destroy the assault droids.

 

But lets say the manage to capture the 2 Interdictors that make up the Interdiction fleet, what they won't realise is that despite having jammed their transmissions, the remaining fleet has been alerted telepathically and can prepare accordingly:

 

 

  • Lock down the bridge completely, this means seal the windows as well to prevent the HK getting in or at least remove the element of surprise.
     
     
  • Ambush the Interdictors as soon as the drop out of hyperspace and destroy them, these HK units aren't exactly naval captains.
     
     
  • Have Sith assassins equipped with breath masks ready to board the ship and repel the invaders. And equip everyone else on the ships with breath masks as well.

 

You didn't read a word I said did you...

  1. The HK Units are entering the ship through the bridge by blasting a hole in the transparisteel windows with high explosives.
  2. The HK units are sending a coordinated strike command via a comm burst to make sure that all their attacks occur at the same time (kinda hard to respond to a distress signal when it hasn't been given yet). They are not attacking just when they first get into position, they are waiting until all units are in position to launch the strike...
  3. Breath masks will not work in hard vacuum, you need full spacesuits otherwise the Sith is going to explode and die horribly in space. It isn't just the lack of air that will kill one, it is the pressure difference.
  4. The assualt droids (which I will admit is a new item you brought up), can probably be completely taken off line from the bridge (or reprogrammed from the bridge).
  5. I don't think stealth will be particularly effective, main reason is that anyone that survives would have to be in a full space suit, which the space suits of that era were not exactly built with either stealth or combat in mind.
  6. Last I checked the hyperspace controls and navi-computer are both on the bridge, after seizing the bridge and venting the rest of the ship, the captured ships can be taken to some other location to be cleared at G0-T0's leisure
  7. Why would the interdictors be by themselves (all they affect is hyperdrive operation so I fail to see what they will accomplish when the hijacking is occurring in normal space), unless you are expecting this kind of a hijacking, having the interdictors not being protected by the fleet is extremely foolish.

As for your other points, these have been discussed at great lengths and you don't raise any new points so I'm not going to go over them again, but I will say this:

I keep bringing them up cause you never addressed them in the first place, if you would like added clarrification on what the details of the scenario that I am bringing up is, feel free to ask but right now some of what you are giving as counterpoints I quite honestly have no clue how that would be effective since you're suggesting the droids are using a different set of tactics than what I outlined.

 

The Bridge on EVERY ship is being attacked at the same time, that's why comm jamming is not in the equation. You are giving Traya's forces nonexistant time to react.

 

  • Jekk'Jekk Tarr is the perfect place to gas, because its filled with chemical dispensers and all aliens who would normally wear breath masks have them removed. All the assassins need to do is equip themselves with breath masks, sneak in with some patrons then sabotage the chemical dispensers will poison toxic to all species e.g. dioxis and then capture Visquis in his personal lounge. (P.S. The toxins are only poisnous when breathed in, hence why the Exile only used breath control to resist them.)
     
     
  • And these arguments concerning smugglers and BHs are all well and good, but what's a more vital asset? A bunch of mercenaries or the shipyards producing your stealthed fleet? A bunch of smugglers or your own bases and supplies? What exactly are these guys going to do.

 

Ben, you'd only manage to kill some of the aliens in the Jekk Jekk Tar, not all of them by a long shot. The Gand for instance don't remove their body suits and breath masks while they are in public, period. The most you would do is eliminate a bunch a Twi'lek Domo, a Devorian Bartender, some trandoshan wielding swords, some Rodians, and possibly Visquis (which wouldn't be much of a loss for G0-T0), and that's assuming you can even get the poison gas into the Jekk Jekk Tarr in the first place, which you haven't explained how the SIth Assassins could pull that off when the Jekk Jekk Tarr's air contains a gas that can kill humans not only by breathing it in, but also by contact with one's skin (a breath mask won't work).

 

Second flaw in your counter argument (I never said anything about making a whole fleet btw), I said G0-T0 would need 2 to 3 ships with cloaks to pull off the attack to take out Traya's entire fleet, that's hardly a fleet... Additionally this could be done by modifying existing vessels which means you don't even need a spaceport just a starship garage... Getting smugglers and BH's 100% behind "Goto" would by far trump having 2 to 3 stealth freighters, it would mean that you had just handed G0-T0 an armada, 1 or 2 smugglers and/or BHs no big deal, hundreds of smuggler and BH ships, and Traya's fleet is toast (especially if the smuggler ships have missiles or torpedos which can overwhelm the shields of capital ships).

Edited by GarfieldJL
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You didn't read a word I said did you...

  1. The HK Units are entering the ship through the bridge by blasting a hole in the transparisteel windows with high explosives.
  2. The HK units are sending a coordinated strike command via a comm burst to make sure that all their attacks occur at the same time (kinda hard to respond to a distress signal when it hasn't been given yet). They are not attacking just when they first get into position, they are waiting until all units are in position to launch the strike...
  3. Breath masks will not work in hard vacuum, you need full spacesuits otherwise the Sith is going to explode and die horribly in space. It isn't just the lack of air that will kill one, it is the pressure difference.
  4. The assualt droids (which I will admit is a new item you brought up), can probably be completely taken off line from the bridge (or reprogrammed from the bridge).
  5. I don't think stealth will be particularly effective, main reason is that anyone that survives would have to be in a full space suit, which the space suits of that era were not exactly built with either stealth or combat in mind.
  6. Last I checked the hyperspace controls and navi-computer are both on the bridge, after seizing the bridge and venting the rest of the ship, the captured ships can be taken to some other location to be cleared at G0-T0's leisure

 

 

Ok. Your plan hinges on one thing, that may not be pulled off to begin with.

 

The explosive on the glass would set off a large explosion, and would need a large one if it is to succeed. However, think about this.

 

- The HK units would need to be a good distance away. Either in space floating or attached to the ship with magnetic boots.... To make sure they're not caught in the blast.

- If attached to the ship they might be found.

- If the glass is ever broken there is usually a backup force field activated.... This would stop the HK'a from getting into the bridge...

Your plan relies on the bridge.

Besides, Traya knows G0-T0 uses droids, shed know this even if she didn't know of the HK's... Surely the interdictors would have droid scanners up?

 

And yes, by glass I mean transparisteel.... Glass is just quicker to type on an iPhone ^_^.

Edited by Selenial
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Ok. Your plan hinges on one thing, that may not be pulled off to begin with.

 

The explosive on the glass would set off a large explosion, and would need a large one if it is to succeed. However, think about this.

 

- The HK units would need to be a good distance away. Either in space floating or attached to the ship with magnetic boots.... To make sure they're not caught in the blast.

 

If the explosives are designed to direct the blast in a particular direction then this is a non-issue... Also the HK units were using magnetic boots (their feet are magnetized), in order to hike to bridge and bypass all the organics inside the ship.

 

- If attached to the ship they might be found.

It would be rather hard to find them considering they are the same color as the hull of the capital ships, and they are so small compared to the ship itself.

- If the glass is ever broken there is usually a backup force field activated.... This would stop the HK'a from getting into the bridge...

Star Wars never had that kind of force field technology in the advent of hull breaches even in the New Republic time period. While they may have had force fields for hangers, it never looked like the had them for windows.

 

You'd be right if this were Star Trek, but Star Trek had technology that Star Wars doesn't have.

Your plan relies on the bridge.

It relies on taking the bridge because there are numerous options of how to deal with the capital ships. Worst Case, the HK Units could just have the ships ram each other so if G0-T0 can't have the ships, then nobody can.

Besides, Traya knows G0-T0 uses droids, shed know this even if she didn't know of the HK's... Surely the interdictors would have droid scanners up?.

Wouldn't a device like that cause constant false alarms on her ships, considering the battle droids...

 

Btw, I'm not sure there is a droid scanner that could detect the HK units while they are on the outer hull of the capital ship. Remember, in Empire Strikes Back, the Imperials couldn't detect C3-P0's power signature (he was just shut off because he was annoying), when the Falcon used the landing claw to hide on the back of a star destroyer. I don't think capital ships of that era could detect a small group of droids on the outer hull of the ship.

Edited by GarfieldJL
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You didn't read a word I said did you...

  1. The HK Units are entering the ship through the bridge by blasting a hole in the transparisteel windows with high explosives.
  2. The HK units are sending a coordinated strike command via a comm burst to make sure that all their attacks occur at the same time (kinda hard to respond to a distress signal when it hasn't been given yet). They are not attacking just when they first get into position, they are waiting until all units are in position to launch the strike...
  3. Breath masks will not work in hard vacuum, you need full spacesuits otherwise the Sith is going to explode and die horribly in space. It isn't just the lack of air that will kill one, it is the pressure difference.
  4. The assualt droids (which I will admit is a new item you brought up), can probably be completely taken off line from the bridge (or reprogrammed from the bridge).
  5. I don't think stealth will be particularly effective, main reason is that anyone that survives would have to be in a full space suit, which the space suits of that era were not exactly built with either stealth or combat in mind.
  6. Last I checked the hyperspace controls and navi-computer are both on the bridge, after seizing the bridge and venting the rest of the ship, the captured ships can be taken to some other location to be cleared at G0-T0's leisure
  7. Why would the interdictors be by themselves (all they affect is hyperdrive operation so I fail to see what they will accomplish when the hijacking is occurring in normal space), unless you are expecting this kind of a hijacking, having the interdictors not being protected by the fleet is extremely foolish.

I did and took everything into account.

 

 

  1. Yup, and a few seconds after they'll automatically seal up. Those close will get sucked out, but those further away and the Sith will not, and the HK's have to kill them to access the bridge.
  2. I meant reinforcements from inside the ship, those directly outside the bridge will hear and then see the commotion and alert everyone that the bridge is under attack.
  3. That is true, however droids do.
  4. Probably, but they have to get control of the bridge first.
  5. Also true.
  6. True, but that makes no difference. Eventually they are going to go to Malachor V, yet Traya will then be even more prepared.
  7. I don't see your point. What do they need protection from? G0-T0's vast navy? All Traya needs is a force large enough to pull some freighters out of hyperspace and blast them out the sky, two is more than enough for this purpose. One would suffice. There purpose is to prevent ships from reaching Malachor V.

 

Concerning reaction time. Yes every ship is being attacked at the same time. But unless the HK's kill them immediately they have enough time to telepathically warn Traya, call for reinforcements from the rest of the ship etc. etc. They will not die instantly. And when I said 'as for your other points' I was reffering to points you made outside the 'capture ship' scenario. Rakatan tech may also throw a spanner in the works when attempting to hack the ship if its locked down.

 

Concerning Jekk'Jekk Tarr, OK, so everyone would die except the Gand. Who will then be slaughtered by the the remaining Sith and Sith assassins, or be killed beforehand in plasma explosions. And like I already said, the poisons don't affect skin, they are only deadly when you breath them in, hence why Meetra only used breath control to defend against them. A breath mask would work. I even know the gases circulating about that place, cynagonen and ammonia, look them up they don't affect the skin.

 

And finally, I really don't think G0-T0 is going to be able to get hundreds of smugglers and bounty hunters on board simply because the Sith are laying waste to Exchange bases. Most likely they will be scared away by the prospect of fighting an invisible opponent that wields the force that even the Exchange can't stand up to.

 

P.S. Some vessels had force fields on the windows see TFU, the Interdictor may not have force fields but it will have some sort of seal up device, all ships did.

Edited by Beniboybling
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I did and took everything into account.

 

 

  1. Yup, and a few seconds after they'll automatically seal up. Those close will get sucked out, but those further away and the Sith will not, and the HK's have to kill them to access the bridge.
  2. I meant reinforcements from inside the ship, those directly outside the bridge will hear and then see the commotion and alert everyone that the bridge is under attack.
  3. That is true, however droids do.
  4. Probably, but they have to get control of the bridge first.
  5. Also true.
  6. True, but that makes no difference. Eventually they are going to go to Malachor V, yet Traya will then be even more prepared.
  7. I don't see your point. What do they need protection from? G0-T0's vast navy? All Traya needs is a force large enough to pull some freighters out of hyperspace and blast them out the sky, two is more than enough for this purpose. One would suffice. There purpose is to prevent ships from reaching Malachor V.

 

Concerning reaction time. Yes every ship is being attacked at the same time. But unless the HK's kill them immediately they have enough time to telepathically warn Traya, call for reinforcements from the rest of the ship etc. etc. They will not die instantly. And when I said 'as for your other points' I was reffering to points you made outside the 'capture ship' scenario. Rakatan tech may also throw a spanner in the works when attempting to hack the ship if its locked down.

 

Concerning Jekk'Jekk Tarr, OK, so everyone would die except the Gand. Who will then be slaughtered by the the remaining Sith and Sith assassins, or be killed beforehand in plasma explosions. And like I already said, the poisons don't affect skin, they are only deadly when you breath them in, hence why Meetra only used breath control to defend against them. A breath mask would work. I even know the gases circulating about that place, cynagonen and ammonia, look them up they don't affect the skin.

 

And finally, I really don't think G0-T0 is going to be able to get hundreds of smugglers and bounty hunters on board simply because the Sith are laying waste to Exchange bases. Most likely they will be scared away by the prospect of fighting an invisible opponent that wields the force that even the Exchange can't stand up to.

 

P.S. Some vessels had force fields on the windows see TFU, the Interdictor may not have force fields but it will have some sort of seal up device, all ships did.

 

If you look at how big the window is that Nihilus was looking out of, I'm not sure that anyone on the bridge would survive...

 

 

As for others getting into the bridge, it appears there is more than one window that can be broken to throw people into space.

 

Btw, worst case, the HK units can put the ships on collision courses and destroy Traya's entire fleet.

 

Concerning the Jekk'Jekk Tarr

 

Atton's comments seem to indicate that the gas in the Jekk Jekk works on tactile contact..

Edited by GarfieldJL
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If you look at how big the window is that Nihilus was looking out of, I'm not sure that anyone on the bridge would survive...

 

 

As for others getting into the bridge, it appears there is more than one window that can be broken to throw people into space.

That's a Centurion-class cruiser. The windows of an Interdictor are considerable smaller. See
. And even if everyone did get pulled out, the alarms/commotion would alert others to a breach.

 

I fail to understand your next point, for the record the Interdictor is actually pretty windowless at least around the bridge area. And of course, those windows will seal up soon after they are broken.

 

EDIT: Just a thought I had concerning the Bao-Dur scenario: after discovering the presence of the HK factory either from the droids or simply from the Czerka/Exchange presence their, Traya will find Bao-Dur and have him interrogated Sith style, to which he will likely break and spill. Upon learning of his importance Traya may 'allow' him to be recaptured when G0-T0 tries to take the facility and Bao-Dur back, his two most valuable assets. Of course she'll be tracking him and he'll go straight to G0-T0's yacht if the Exchange bases on the ground have been compromised.

Edited by Beniboybling
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That's a Centurion-class cruiser. The windows of an Interdictor are considerable smaller. See
. And even if everyone did get pulled out, the alarms/commotion would alert others to a breach.

 

I fail to understand your next point, for the record the Interdictor is actually pretty windowless at least around the bridge area. And of course, those windows will seal up soon after they are broken.

 

EDIT: Just a thought I had concerning the Bao-Dur scenario: after discovering the presence of the HK factory either from the droids or simply from the Czerka/Exchange presence their, Traya will find Bao-Dur and have him interrogated Sith style, to which he will likely break and spill. Upon learning of his importance Traya may 'allow' him to be recaptured when G0-T0 tries to take the facility and Bao-Dur back, his two most valuable assets. Of course she'll be tracking him and he'll go straight to G0-T0's yacht if the Exchange bases on the ground have been compromised.

 

Yet the position of the windows are right near ALL personal on the bridge. Quite possible with the right timing and positioning.

 

With Bao-Dur, how will Traya learn of the factory before the invasion of Malachor? That's is the only time that HK's will be really attacking- well the ships and the protocol droids but still. I also beg to differ that the factory will fall. With no breath control(yes, no? whats the verdict?) and many, many defenses I don't see the factory falling. Especially if G0-T0 gets the fleet. Orbital bombardment anyone? The factory has survived it before. Those who besiege it though will not be so lucky.

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Yet the position of the windows are right near ALL personal on the bridge. Quite possible with the right timing and positioning.
Wait, wait wait. Big problem I just realised with this plan. If the droids explode the windows, all the air suddenly rushes out, so fast and so powerfully that everyone inside gets sucked out. So how on earth are the HK's going to get in when air is blowing them in the opposite direction and bodies are flying into their faces? Sure, wait until all the air gets out, but no because once that happens the windows seal. Leaving the droids awkwardly floating off into the distance like Team Rocket, then getting blasted apart by fighters.
With Bao-Dur, how will Traya learn of the factory before the invasion of Malachor? That's is the only time that HK's will be really attacking- well the ships and the protocol droids but still. I also beg to differ that the factory will fall. With no breath control(yes, no? whats the verdict?) and many, many defenses I don't see the factory falling. Especially if G0-T0 gets the fleet. Orbital bombardment anyone? The factory has survived it before. Those who besiege it though will not be so lucky.
This would be after Malachor, and under the assumption the attack would fail. Just another one of the possibilities. I think the factory would fall, yes it would take time but Traya has an advantage that G0-T0 does not, numbers. She can just keep pumping Sith, assassins, droids and troopers into the place until she wins. HK droids are tough, but how long can they last against lightsabers, lightning, ion weapons, grenades etc? And concerning breath control, only Traya. But those gas vents can simply be shot at/avoided.
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Wait, wait wait. Big problem I just realised with this plan. If the droids explode the windows, all the air suddenly rushes out, so fast and so powerfully that everyone inside gets sucked out. So how on earth are the HK's going to get in when air is blowing them in the opposite direction and bodies are flying into their faces? Sure, wait until all the air gets out, but no because once that happens the windows seal. Leaving the droids awkwardly floating off into the distance like Team Rocket, then getting blasted apart by fighters.This would be after Malachor, and under the assumption the attack would fail. Just another one of the possibilities. I think the factory would fall, yes it would take time but Traya has an advantage that G0-T0 does not, numbers. She can just keep pumping Sith, assassins, droids and troopers into the place until she wins. HK droids are tough, but how long can they last against lightsabers, lightning, ion weapons, grenades etc? And concerning breath control, only Traya. But those gas vents can simply be shot at/avoided.

 

The HK's could simply push the bodies away and move through them with the magnetic boots. Then stand on the ceiling until the shields go down. Or cancel the shields from even coming back online with the console.

 

With the invasion the HK's are programmed to kill Jedi, and the defenses of the factory are programmed to also kill Jedi. The Sith would be slaughtered. the HK's could also use flamethrowers and carbonite attacks to kill the Sith. Or they could be suicide bombers and run with bombs about to go. Droids can be programmed to do anything.

 

EDIT: with the factory, new droids are constantly being produced. The numbers argument is sort of, not completely, but sort of invalid.

Edited by Canino
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The HK's could simply push the bodies away and move through them with the magnetic boots. Then stand on the ceiling until the shields go down. Or cancel the shields from even coming back online with the console.

 

And Hk series droids understand Rakatan tech why now?

 

With the invasion the HK's are programmed to kill Jedi, and the defenses of the factory are programmed to also kill Jedi. The Sith would be slaughtered. the HK's could also use flamethrowers and carbonite attacks to kill the Sith. Or they could be suicide bombers and run with bombs about to go. Droids can be programmed to do anything.

 

EDIT: with the factory, new droids are constantly being produced. The numbers argument is sort of, not completely, but sort of invalid.

 

Key word being Jedi, Jedi are not Sith, the Hk series have also got a TERRIBLE track record hunting Jedi down, just to make the point.

 

Also, the droid production rate isn't very high, remember in TOR how they stated it's stupidly hard to mass produce Hk-51s? yeh.

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The HK's could simply push the bodies away and move through them with the magnetic boots. Then stand on the ceiling until the shields go down. Or cancel the shields from even coming back online with the console.
Simply is not the right word. The bodies will be flying at them with high velocity and smack them in the face. In order to get inside the HK's have to jump, step, swing whatever - all those movements include detaching their magnetic boots, even just one. With nothing to hold onto the winds will push them back, they are simply too powerful. Even with a jetpack they wouldn't get in. They can't cancel the windows from closing if they are not inside. Its simply impossible.

With the invasion the HK's are programmed to kill Jedi, and the defenses of the factory are programmed to also kill Jedi. The Sith would be slaughtered. the HK's could also use flamethrowers and carbonite attacks to kill the Sith. Or they could be suicide bombers and run with bombs about to go. Droids can be programmed to do anything.

 

EDIT: with the factory, new droids are constantly being produced. The numbers argument is sort of, not completely, but sort of invalid.

Not Jedi, biologicals. They are trained to kill biologicals, the Force puts a spanner in the works, there are no defenses that are specifically effective against Force users. They have an edge in just about anything. E.g. bomb explosions they can shield against, same with flamethrowers and carbonite attacks, they can push toxins out of their bodies, they can deflect turret fire etc. And sure, they have a factory, but I don't think production is anywhere near that fast. Eventually, superior numbers will prevail. Let's also remember that if the invasion of Malachor fails he lost what, 100 units? And has 0 time to build more.
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With the invasion the HK's are programmed to kill Jedi, and the defenses of the factory are programmed to also kill Jedi. The Sith would be slaughtered. the HK's could also use flamethrowers and carbonite attacks to kill the Sith. Or they could be suicide bombers and run with bombs about to go. Droids can be programmed to do anything.

 

EDIT: with the factory, new droids are constantly being produced. The numbers argument is sort of, not completely, but sort of invalid.

 

The factory will have to shut down if under siege. They'll only have whatever supplies are on hand, enough to make a few more droids, but not very many. And the Sith don't need to force their way into the factory, just bomb the entrance and cave in the base on top of it.

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Simply is not the right word. The bodies will be flying at them with high velocity and smack them in the face. In order to get inside the HK's have to jump, step, swing whatever - all those movements include detaching their magnetic boots, even just one. With nothing to hold onto the winds will push them back, they are simply too powerful. Even with a jetpack they wouldn't get in. They can't cancel the windows from closing if they are not inside. Its simply impossible.

 

What's to stop them from blowing up the panels that drop down to cover the destroyed windows? What's to stop them from destroying another group of windows and walking in after they've sent everyone into space by blowing up a few strategic windows?

 

Star Wars ships do not have the same Force Field Technology that is seen in Star Trek, not even in the New Republic era. While they are able to use forcefields for hanger bays, it appears that Force Field Technology is too bulky in Star Wars to deal with hull breeches, while you're looking at the Ravenger's hull breeches as an example of force field tech for Star Wars, I really doubt that was the case. In all honesty Ravenger shouldn't have even been flying, which speaks to how powerful Nihilus was, probably powerful enough to scare the heck out of Traya.

 

Not Jedi, biologicals. They are trained to kill biologicals, the Force puts a spanner in the works, there are no defenses that are specifically effective against Force users. They have an edge in just about anything. E.g. bomb explosions they can shield against, same with flamethrowers and carbonite attacks, they can push toxins out of their bodies, they can deflect turret fire etc. And sure, they have a factory, but I don't think production is anywhere near that fast. Eventually, superior numbers will prevail. Let's also remember that if the invasion of Malachor fails he lost what, 100 units? And has 0 time to build more.

 

If you actually see the droid production facilities of the HK Factory, they easily have hundreds if not thousands of droids near completion in massive assembly lines. You can see it in the background. Losing 100 droids wouldn't be that big of a deal... Additionally, if Traya loses her fleet, she wouldn't have the ability to conduct an invasion of the droid factory anyways.

 

Btw, the Sith Assassins in KotOR II were not exactly Galen Marek, the Exile, Revan, or Luke Skywalker... Some of them actually died from gas mines in TSL if you lure them into them. The Sith Assassins also got stronger, the stronger in the force their opponent was. Considering HK units aren't force sensitive, that also seriously limits the power of these assassins.

 

The factory will have to shut down if under siege. They'll only have whatever supplies are on hand, enough to make a few more droids, but not very many. And the Sith don't need to force their way into the factory, just bomb the entrance and cave in the base on top of it.

 

The military facility above the factory survived a full-scale orbital bombardment already, and the actually HK factory, is beneath another facility that is beneath the military facility...

 

Additionally, it stands to reason the HK-units would have tunnelling equipment to dig themselves out if someone tried what you're suggesting (they were psychotic, not complete idiots).

Edited by GarfieldJL
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What's to stop them from blowing up the panels that drop down to cover the destroyed windows? What's to stop them from destroying another group of windows and walking in after they've sent everyone into space by blowing up a few strategic windows?

 

I think it would be the really angry Sith Lords on the bridge who would kill them if they tried getting in again. Or fighter wings which came to investigate the initial explosion. Honestly, even getting those teams in place on two ships will be a challenge, let alone the entire fleet. This is because your vaunted "burst communications" will still be picked up by the Sith, and even if encrypted, the simple presence of that transmission gives away the element of surprise. There's a reason enforced radio silence is used on covert operations. Once the HKs signal each other even once, the Sith will become suspicious and start looking for intruders on the ships.

 

After all, people have been trying to breach and capture capital ships for a long time, nothing you're suggesting is really that innovative or creative. There are stock responses to all these threats, and even supposing the HKs make it onto the bridge, they'll be quickly destroyed by droid response teams, or Sith Lords, or just plain old space marines in sealed suits with ion rifles.

 

Once the windows are breached for the first time, control will be moved from the bridge to a backup CIC. This plan is much too far fetched and based on luck. The HKs might simply be detected and destroyed when they first drop out of hyperspace, or when they're deploying on the ships. You haven't discussed how they'll get from their stealth vessels onto the hulls of the ship without risking their cloaking.

 

 

Btw, the Sith Assassins in KotOR II were not exactly Galen Marek, the Exile, Revan, or Luke Skywalker... Some of them actually died from gas mines in TSL if you lure them into them. The Sith Assassins also got stronger, the stronger in the force their opponent was. Considering HK units aren't force sensitive, that also seriously limits the power of these assassins.

 

They don't have to be Galen Marek, but they are at least a match for the HK units. Those same mines that killed them in KotOR II also killed HK units, they're pretty much on par with each other in terms of combat skills.

The military facility above the factory survived a full-scale orbital bombardment already, and the actually HK factory, is beneath another facility that is beneath the military facility...

 

Additionally, it stands to reason the HK-units would have tunnelling equipment to dig themselves out if someone tried what you're suggesting (they were psychotic, not complete idiots).

 

It survived a bombardment, which would be entirely different than a calculated demolitions operation. Dropping both of those facilities on top of the factory, plus several hundred tons of dirt and rock would easily crush and destroy the entire facility, and destroy most of the droids. The survivors might have digging equipment, but they might not. Even if they did, the Sith would just be waiting for them on the other end, with heavy weapons and ion grenades to drop on them. That factory is done for as soon as Traya gets her hands on one HK unit and his memory core.

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What's to stop them from blowing up the panels that drop down to cover the destroyed windows? What's to stop them from destroying another group of windows and walking in after they've sent everyone into space by blowing up a few strategic windows?
Strategic windows? Let's remember the Interdictor is a starship, not a greenhouse. Granted it has windows but not many, in fact IIRC I didn't come across a single window on the Leviathan in KOTOR II except on the bridge. I expect anything/one of value will be deeper inside the vessel rather than on the edge were there may or may not be windows. One thing's for sure, even if you blew open every window the the vessel, it would kill few.

 

Blowing the 'panels' that drop down likely wouldn't work, as they would likely be magnetically sealed or simply made of very thick durasteel. Let's remember that these panels have to resist turbolaser fire etc. if the shields were to fail. Or it will just be a force field, which may I repeat, are evident in the Star Wars galaxy. I've smashed my fair share of windows in The Force Unleashed - all were replaced with a Force field. When did I mention the Ravager? That wasn't Force field tech, those were particle shields.

 

But concerning the HK factory, we can't make the assumption it contains thousands of ready to go HK units based on a single image, in which we saw around 100. Like someone else pointed out, HK units were difficult to mass produce quickly, as they are extremely complex units. I'm not sure G0-T0 could just pump them out like B1 battle droids. We may also be exaggerating their abilities, I mean 3 of them were defeated by a single astromech... and they never actually captured any Jedi/Sith or gave Meetra that much trouble. I expect quality was lost in exchange for quantity. Nor are they designed for full scale battles, but for assassination. 'Wanton slaughter' is an ambiguous term and more likely refers to the killing of unarmed innocents and is certainly not evidence for them being skilled in battlefields.

 

NOTE: The stats Warren provided on the HK-51 units are non-canon, as the HK-51 units were cut not only from the game but from Star Wars canon as a whole.

 

Not that the Sith assassins will be terribly effective against the droids, but we must remember that Sith assassins were never used for frontal assaults, only for shadow attacks. So her invasion force will be entirely comprised of Sith troopers, grenadiers, commandos, Sith and assault droids. Although stealthed assassins can be sent to infiltrate all corners of the facility to deactivate traps and most importantly, destroy the assembly line - lets remember that stealth tech also negates mines, gas traps, turrets, assault droids etc. they can move about freely.

 

P.S. Ventessel, it is important that the facility remains intact because Bao-Dur will likely be imprisoned their as well as information concerning G0-T0's powerbase/droids that can be reprogrammed. She may not be aware of the former but she will want the latter, information (especially in this case) is power.

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I think I'm about ready for this to be done too.

 

I honestly won't be surprised whichever way this debate goes. It's become so muddled and round-about that I have no idea how it's going to be judged effectively.

 

All I'll say is that G0-T0 has more scenarios going for him that result in his opponent's death.

Edited by Warren-Stride
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I think I'm about ready for this to be done too.

 

I honestly won't be surprised whichever way this debate goes. It's become so muddled and round-about that I have no idea how it's going to be judged effectively.

 

All I'll say is that G0-T0 has more scenarios going for him that result in his opponent's death.

 

More scenarios, perhaps, but they're all half-arsed or far fetched, reliant on so many convenient circumstances that we might as well just consider the possibility that some drunk spacer flies into G0-T0's yacht by accident and blows him up.

 

As Rayla has repeatedly pointed out, just getting troops to the surface of Malachor is going to be a serious challenge for non-Force Sensitives, and that's without considering the interdiction efforts of the Sith Fleet.

 

And the whole while, Traya and her assassins will be ripping up the Exchange all over Nar Shaddaa. The Exchange isn't exactly well liked, either. At best, they're just competition for other smugglers and spacers. And at worst, they're oppressive jerks universally hated by the refugees and other people who are trying to compete with their monopolistic attempt to control smuggling operations. No one will cry over their graves.

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And the whole while, Traya and her assassins will be ripping up the Exchange all over Nar Shaddaa. The Exchange isn't exactly well liked, either. At best, they're just competition for other smugglers and spacers. And at worst, they're oppressive jerks universally hated by the refugees and other people who are trying to compete with their monopolistic attempt to control smuggling operations. No one will cry over their graves.

 

Just pointing out that that scenario has nothing to do with G0-T0's death, and trying to spin it in such a way would be "half-arsed or far fetched, reliant on so many convenient circumstances that we might as well just consider the possibility that some Sith war beast will rip Traya's head off."

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Just pointing out that that scenario has nothing to do with G0-T0's death, and trying to spin it in such a way would be "half-arsed or far fetched, reliant on so many convenient circumstances that we might as well just consider the possibility that some Sith war beast will rip Traya's head off."

 

Without his smuggling ring and the loyalty of his Exchange thugs, what is G0-T0? Just a rogue droid, with broken programming parameters. Once his power base is crippled and his financial operations ruined, it's just a matter of time before someone tips Traya off that he'll be refueling at this place, etc. and he gets bushwhacked by Sith fighters.

 

Or he becomes desperate enough to do something very dangerous, and is lured into a trap onboard some "abandoned" Sith ship.

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....it's just a matter of time before someone tips Traya off that he'll be refueling at this place, etc. and he gets bushwhacked by Sith fighters.

 

Or he becomes desperate enough to do something very dangerous, and is lured into a trap onboard some "abandoned" Sith ship.

 

And there's the "half-arsed or far fetched, reliant on so many convenient circumstances that we might as well just consider the possibility that some Sith war beast will rip Traya's head off."

Edited by Warren-Stride
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Strategic windows? Let's remember the Interdictor is a starship, not a greenhouse. Granted it has windows but not many, in fact IIRC I didn't come across a single window on the Leviathan in KOTOR II except on the bridge. I expect anything/one of value will be deeper inside the vessel rather than on the edge were there may or may not be windows. One thing's for sure, even if you blew open every window the the vessel, it would kill few.

 

Since there were multiple windows on the bridge, the HK units can blow up one or two to kill everyone on the bridge then blow open another window and casually walk in before the panel comes down. Gotta love magnetic boots.

 

Btw, even Sith need to breathe.

 

The HK units would then have numerous options on the bridge of turning the ship's own automated defenses against the crew, possibly even shut down life support, also in bridge lockdowns on the interdictor, the bridge would be very hard to access, except via an airlock (KotOR I).

 

If the HK units can shut down life support, then the crew dies (even better if they can vent the ship's air or flood the ship with poison gas). Additionally, worst case the HK units would have time enough to have the ships in the fleet simply ram each other, which would either destroy the ships, or cripple them to the point it would take years to repair them.

 

Blowing the 'panels' that drop down likely wouldn't work, as they would likely be magnetically sealed or simply made of very thick durasteel. Let's remember that these panels have to resist turbolaser fire etc. if the shields were to fail. Or it will just be a force field, which may I repeat, are evident in the Star Wars galaxy. I've smashed my fair share of windows in The Force Unleashed - all were replaced with a Force field. When did I mention the Ravager? That wasn't Force field tech, those were particle shields.

 

Magnetically sealed blocks blaster fire not old fashioned explosive ordinance...

 

Also, I have Force Unleashed as well, and I don't know where you're coming up with the force field windows on starships... The station which is the first level had drop down panels that covered the broken window, additionally every instance where windows were broken on ships had drop down windows not forcefields...

 

But concerning the HK factory, we can't make the assumption it contains thousands of ready to go HK units based on a single image, in which we saw around 100. Like someone else pointed out, HK units were difficult to mass produce quickly, as they are extremely complex units. I'm not sure G0-T0 could just pump them out like B1 battle droids. We may also be exaggerating their abilities, I mean 3 of them were defeated by a single astromech... and they never actually captured any Jedi/Sith or gave Meetra that much trouble. I expect quality was lost in exchange for quantity. Nor are they designed for full scale battles, but for assassination. 'Wanton slaughter' is an ambiguous term and more likely refers to the killing of unarmed innocents and is certainly not evidence for them being skilled in battlefields.

 

The astromech in question had a prototype shield generator with unlimited charges and was packing anti-droid weapons. Additionally the astromech (T3-M4), kinda had plot-armor and thus the ninja rule was in effect. Basically the ninja rule is the more enemies the ninja (or protagonist that is supposed to survive a fight scene) is facing, the more insanely skillful and powerful they are portrayed as being.

 

NOTE: The stats Warren provided on the HK-51 units are non-canon, as the HK-51 units were cut not only from the game but from Star Wars canon as a whole.

Actually the droid factory is one of the extremely few instances of cut-content from games being canon... Also why are the HK 51's being dragged into this, production was halted on the HK 51's because of their tendency to assassinate HK 50 units.

 

I think it's also possible that there are two different versions of HK 51 units, completely independent from each other, but that's besides the point.

 

Not that the Sith assassins will be terribly effective against the droids, but we must remember that Sith assassins were never used for frontal assaults, only for shadow attacks. So her invasion force will be entirely comprised of Sith troopers, grenadiers, commandos, Sith and assault droids. Although stealthed assassins can be sent to infiltrate all corners of the facility to deactivate traps and most importantly, destroy the assembly line - lets remember that stealth tech also negates mines, gas traps, turrets, assault droids etc. they can move about freely.

 

Good luck with that... If you've played through the factory, you'd know the Assassins wouldn't even be able to reach the controls to gain entry to the actual HK droid factory, let alone sabotaging it. Traya's sith assassins were armed with some kind of staff weapon, not lightsabers, good luck busting through a force fields (I suspect star wars tech requires more bulky equipment to generate force fields than Star Trek Tech) with a metal stick...

 

P.S. Ventessel, it is important that the facility remains intact because Bao-Dur will likely be imprisoned their as well as information concerning G0-T0's powerbase/droids that can be reprogrammed. She may not be aware of the former but she will want the latter, information (especially in this case) is power.

 

Okay, if Traya can get Bao-dur, why can't G0-T0 get people like HK-47? I thought the rules were no famous specific individuals can help either side unless they were deemed part of the power base in the first post?

 

Anyways, people are talking about Traya faking her death earlier... What's to stop G0-T0 from faking his own death and then taking out Traya when she let's her guard down.

 

It'd be much easier for G0-T0 to successfully fake his own death, considering he can just transfer himself to another droid...

Edited by GarfieldJL
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Since there were multiple windows on the bridge, the HK units can blow up one or two to kill everyone on the bridge then blow open another window and casually walk in before the panel comes down. Gotta love magnetic boots.
But they can't get in before the panel drops down, the velocity is too strong. Yes magnetic boots but in order to move they have to walk, this involves lifting a foot up and moving it forward. Here in lies the problem, as soon as they lift that foot up and attempt to move it through the window the power of the velocity push it back and the droid is sent flailing backwards holding on to the vessel with one foot and looking kinda dumb. Because they lack magnetic tracks, getting inside while the air is pushing them back is impossible. And in case you thought this was the case, blasting open some windows before will not reduce the velocity when you blast open some more as the air is replenished instantly.

 

There are also some other problems that need to be overcome:

 

 

  • Breaking through the panels, they will be inches thick so heavy explosives will be needed, this will likely blow the bridge walls apart, leaving them exposed to attacks via multiple fighters, which only need to scatter fire in that general direction. The fighters will also start shooting once the first detonation goes off.
     
     
  • If anyone survives the initial blast (e.g. Sith) they may very well transfer control of the bridge or shut it down completely, that latter can be done remotely, forcing the HK units to hack it and buying the Sith more time to intervene.
     
     
  • Emergency protocols will be in place for this kind of attack. Which will likely involve rapid response droid teams being dispatched to the bridge. Were talking assaults droids equipped with powerful deflector shields and blaster cannons. And magnetized of course.
     
     
  • If the HK units manage to overcome all this, they still have hundreds of Sith fighters to deal with which could potentially cripple the vessels or do serious damage to the now exposed bridge and HK's aboard it.
     
     
  • Malachor V will also still be protected by a web of dormant fighters spread across the debris, which Traya would likely have opted to remain in place in case the attack on her fleet was a distraction.
     
     
  • Due to the time it will take to outfit several freighters with stealth tech, transport HKs and equip them with disruptor rifles, and capture Bao-Dur and convince/force him to reactivate the MSG. Traya will already have struck at G0-T0's Exchange bases on Nar Shaddaa and Telos IV. To which it will take his commandeered fleet roughly 2 days to respond to (travel time in planets.)
     
     
  • Those smugglers and bounty hunters riled by Traya's attacks on Nar Shaddaa may end up attacking G0-T0's commandeered vessels if they drop out of hyperspace above Nar Shaddaa.

 

For these reasons it would be better to tailor the attack to sabotage rather than commandeering. Instead of trying to access the bridge the droids could simply attempt to blow it up. Attaching, say, thorium charges or something more powerful to the bridges and destroying them. Traya would have no means of repairing them and these vessels would effectively be taken out of the picture, giving G0-T0 a greater chance of winning.

 

P.S. The sith assassins wield force pikes, not metal sticks, their vibro-tipped edges are capable of cutting through thin durasteel - these can be used to cut through at the edges and deactivate the force fields, either that or overload them with grenades/mines.

 

And how is G0-T0 going to fake his death? Blow up his own yacht?

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And how is G0-T0 going to fake his death? Blow up his own yacht?

 

Even if Traya knows what G0-T0 looks like (does she? 'Cause if not this is a TON easier) he has plenty of droids that look exactly like him. He could easily send one of them in a doomed assult or just have it be assassinated. If she doesn't know what he looks like, and only knows he's a droid, G0-T0 could be "revealed" to be any droid under the stars.

 

Faking his own death would mean no more threat from Exchange bosses that think he no longer exists and he now has the element of suprise. He would still keep in touch with his Gand, Ubese, Zhug Brothers, HK-50s, etc, but now all of his rivals think he's out of the picture.

 

This creates the power vaccum I was talking about, making Nar Shaddaa a very chaotic and dangerous place to be. Traya's efforts would be disrupted by the lack of structure and the lack of information on G0-T0, who is "dead."

 

Getting rid of his Exchange goons doesn't really hurt G0-T0 at all. He has plenty of credits to do what he needs to and with the forces closest to him he is more than capable of taking down Traya. He could just buy/gather what supplies and tech he needs, pretend to die, then strike at Traya without having to worry about his schemeing allies.

 

 

*Does a little dance for post 600*

Edited by Warren-Stride
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