What follows is an objective analysis comparing Scoundrel/Operative to counterpart roles. Its difficult to say that the class I was so excited about is now so terrible, but denial isn't helpful to anyone.

Before continuing, ask yourself: "What can Scoundrel do better than another class?" The answer is: nothing.

My proposed changes to fix the Scrapper problems can be found here.

PvP

UPDATE: I believe the 1.1.1 nerf was necessary. Scoundrel opener burst damage was too high. However, without that burst we need better sustained damage and survivability. This is what we lack. I don't want the insane burst back, I want to be a balanced, well-rounded class.

Damage - Scrapper

"He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious." -Sun Tzu

The Scrapper is a stealth-based alpha strike class. The great advantage of stealth is being able to choose your battles. I do not wish to discount this point.

However, after the recent nerfs, our opener damage has been significantly lowered due to the damage decrease coupled with armor penetration reduction. We are still able to put out moderate damage and exercise a brief control/stun period, after which our damage plummets and the target is free.

As a melee class with no gap-closing ability and low survivability, we are relegated to the periphery of combat. Any amount of focus fire will kill us, regardless of healing.

Comparison - Jedi Shadow

Like the Scrapper, the Shadow is a stealth-based alpha strike class. The Shadow offers similar opener damage, but much-superior sustained/ongoing damage, with a similar stun period.

The Shadow also has greatly-incrased gap-closing ability with Force Speed, and superior survivability with tanking abilities and Force Wave to buy distance.

Thus, the Shadow is superior in every way to Scrapper.

Healing - Sawbones

"A pint of sweat, saves a gallon of blood." -George S. Patton

Sawbones is a hot-based healer with almost no burst-healing and no damage-offset potential on other players. In short, if someone is being focused, we need wind-up time to get Slow-Release Medpack rolling and to cast heals. We have no shields and no strong channeled, reactive or instant cast heal to recover a target from low-health/danger situations. HoTs offer survivability in very small group situations but quickly become useless as damage increases. We also suffer from energy issues in any healing-intensive situations.

Sawbones also has no savior or utility abilities. Emergency Medpack, while useful as a stopgap/energy saver can't keep a target alive through significant damage and uses a GCD which prevents bigger heals from being cast. Thus, as with damage, the healing Scoundrel is relegated to small battles in lightly contested areas and is not much use in a pitched battle.

Comparison - Sage

The Sage is the "perfect" healer. It offers serious burst-healing and damage-offset potential. Through Rejuvenate/Healing Trance a Sage can do heavy healing and they can buy time with Force Armor for their powerful heals to land.

For utility and survivability, in addition to Force Armor, a Sage has Force Wave and Force Speed to use as escape methods and talents. A Sage makes the perfect healer for groups and single targets and is difficult to bring down or stop from healing.

Jedi Sage is superior in every way to Scoundrel.

Comparison - Commando

The Commando is not quite as effective as the Sage in some situations but offers other benefits. A Commandos reactive heals allow them to keep themselves or another target up through significant incoming damage. Their AOE 11-point AOE heal is far more effective than our 31-point AOE heal, by increasing all incoming healing on affected targets and reducing their damage taken. Has significant boost to healing crit chance and highly mobile.

For utility Commando has the best AOE knockback in the game. For survivability, Commandos armor and healing mobility, combined with damage reduction and reactive healing make them very difficult to kill.

Commando is superior in every way to Scoundrel.

PvE

Damage - Scrapper/Dirty Fighting

"Gentlemen, we are being killed on the beaches. Let us go inland and be killed." -General Norman Cota

Scrapper and DF both require melee or near-melee range to deal damage. In Flashpoints and Operations, this puts them in the general category of melee. The problem with both of these trees is the lack of sustained damage on high-health targets. Scoundrels are able to deal moderate damage for a short period of time, but must either scale back their damage or run out of energy. As a result their sustained damage is very low compared to other melee.

The Scoundrel has extremely limited AOE damage and is not effective in this area. We also have no raid boost or utility abilities.

Comparison - Jedi Sentinel

A Sentinel has options for either AOE/burst damage (Focus) or Damage over time (Watchman). A Watchman Sentinel has arguably the best sustained damage in the game, as it does not encounter any serious energy issues.

The Sentinel has moderate AOE abilities with Cyclone Slash and Force Sweep, and can boost the raid damage/healing by 15% once per fight.

Comparison - Jedi Shadow

Like a Sentinel, the Shadow offers superior damage from near-melee range compared to Scoundrel, and like the Sentinel, the Shadow does not encounter serious energy issues. A Shadow's sustained single-target damage is very strong.

The Shadow has similarly low AOE damage, but offers superior single target damage, compared to the Scoundrel

Healing - Sawbones

"It requires more courage to suffer than to die." -Napoleon Bonaparte

A Sawbones healer in PvE suffers from many of the same problems as PvP, however energy management becomes a much greater part of the problem. Scoundrels have solid Heals Per Second on a single target, through the use of Slow-Release Medpac and Underworld Medicine. This makes them ideal tank healers.

Scoundrels lack the capacity to heal groups, due to energy starvation concerns, HoT maintenance, and the weakness of Kolto Cloud.

Comparison - Jedi Sage

A Sage healer in PvE is amazing. With powerful single-target heals, shields and channeled abilities, a sage can heal a tank just as well as a Scoundrel, if not better, due to being able to grant armor boosts to its heal targets.

However, Sages truly shine in their AOE healing. With Salvation and Force Armor, a Sage can save hurt party members and rapidly heal the group as a whole.

A Sage completely overshadows Scoundrel in every way.

Comparison - Commando

A Commando is a great complement to any other healer because of its unique healing style. With its reactive heals and good mobility, a Commando can help a great deal with tank healing, though is not ideally suited to doing this job a lone.

As an AOE healer, a Commando is again a great complement to another healer, with their Kolto Bomb offering damage reduction and increased healing. Reactive abilities and mobile-healing also aid with this.

In a group situation, a Commando is not quite as good at tank healing as a Scoundrel unless there is AOE/group healing that needs to be done as well. Again, the utility of the Commando puts it way ahead.

Summary

PvP DPS - Scoundrel is worse than Shadow and offers the least sustained damage of any class, with only moderate burst. Scoundrel is the worst PvP DPS class.

PvP Healing - Scoundrel is worse than both Commando and Sage, and offers the least survivability and burst-healing of any healer. Scoundrel is the worst PvP Healer.

PvE DPS - Scoundrel offers least sustained damage of any melee DPS class and suffers from energy starvation and overall low damage. Scoundrel is the worst melee DPS class.

PvE Healing - Scoundrel offers good tank healing, but terrible group/AOE healing. In Flashpoints, a Sage or Commando is preferable, and in raids the best healing setup is Sage/Sage or Sage/Commando. Scoundrel is the worst PvE healer.

You're doing it wrong. I sit near the top in warzones consistently for damage in scrapper. I think the "nerf" is just going to separate the good from the bad scoundrels. Or at least the clickers from the non-clickers.

You being a good player does not refute anything I said. I am often near the top in Warzones as well. However, all the issues I presented still exist.

Good players will always find ways to survive, but that does not change the fact that Scoundrel has to work much harder than other classes for the same results and in some situations can't match other classes.

I also know that as good as I am, I can't win top damage against equally geared and skilled Sage, Commando or Sentinel.

While I like your enthusiastic approach to the "analysis", you are lacking proof in just about every point you make. What you say is based on gut feelings and you presented no data to support your theories.

I would love to see this document with actual numbers on it, and I'm not talking about the average value of five heals, I'm talking about a thorough piece of work with data gained from ~10 minutes of using the best healing rotation on one character and then the same done by another healing character with stats exactly the same as the first one or any numbers presented is rubbish.

Repeat this with all your points and I will respect your work. Until then you're just another troll in my eyes (and anyone with any sense of reason and logic).

In the coming week I will post an analysis of scoundrel healing differences in PvE and PvP, so you can see what I mean.

edit: grammar >.<

While I like your enthusiastic approach to the "analysis", you are lacking proof in just about every point you make. What you say is based on gut feelings and you presented no data to support your theories.

 

I would love to see this document with actual numbers on it, and I'm not talking about the average value of five heals, I'm talking about a thorough piece of work with data gained from ~10 minutes of using the best healing rotation on one character and then the same done by another healing character with stats exactly the same as the first one or any numbers presented is rubbish.

 

Repeat this with all your points and I will respect your work. Until then you're just another troll in my eyes (and anyone with any sense of reason and logic).

 

In the coming week I will post an analysis of scoundrel healing differences in PvE and PvP, so you can see what I mean.

 

 

edit: grammar >.<

I presented direct class and ability comparisons. Raw numbers are irrelevant. My SRMP in PVP ticks for about 1k on crits. How does compare against a Sage's Force Armor?

Anyone with a sense of reason and logic would see no direct comparison possible, since they don't even have the same abilities or mechanics.

Maybe you're trolling?

You're doing it wrong. I sit near the top in warzones consistently for damage in scrapper. I think the "nerf" is just going to separate the good from the bad scoundrels. Or at least the clickers from the non-clickers.

Running around AEing everyone does make for chart toppers.

I presented direct class and ability comparisons. Raw numbers are irrelevant. My SRMP in PVP ticks for about 1k on crits. How does compare against a Sage's Force Armor?

 

Anyone with a sense of reason and logic would see no direct comparison possible, since they don't even have the same abilities or mechanics.

 

Maybe you're trolling?

Oh but it is easy to compare. Count the force armor as healing done, which it is directly equivalent to. The next steps are simple:

1) Run your healing rotation with a 50 sage for 10 minutes (including force armor) and record it with fraps.

2) Run your healing rotation with a 50 scoundrel who has the same stats as the sage for 10 minutes. Record that with fraps as well.

3) watch the recorded movies and note down exactly how much is healed (raw healing + absorbed through force armor) and compare them.

That's the way we do in the scientific world and it has worked out just fine for the last couple of thousand years - why should it all of a sudden not be a valid approach?

Btw, I'm not trying to undermine your work, I only would like some numbers on it, because I am very interested in knowing the exact strengths and weaknesses of my class!

You're doing it wrong. I sit near the top in warzones consistently for damage in scrapper. I think the "nerf" is just going to separate the good from the bad scoundrels. Or at least the clickers from the non-clickers.

Just the fact that you think sitting near the top in warzones consistently means anything useful, separates you from the good scoundrels.

Oh but it is easy to compare. Count the force armor as healing done, which it is directly equivalent to.

Are you kidding me? How is an instant 3.5k bubble even close to comparable to a 3.5k HoT? Have you ever PvP'd in your life?

Running around AEing everyone does make for chart toppers.

I rarely AoE... That is worst mistake a rookie scrapper spec'd scoundrel could ever make.

The problem is not just with the Scoundrel, our counterpart the Operative on the Empire side is just as gimped.

I Play them both on test and on my main server and I have to say if anything the Scoundrel is slightly better at healing, and the Operative might be slightly better at first strike dps.

Both classes share the exact same problems though, and if we present it like that Bioware may look at it sooner rather then later because not just one but two classes are so gimped.

scoundrels: worst damage, worst utility, worst heals, worst tanking, worst stealth, worst mobility, worst story, worst everything.

This is the truth, pass it on to your friends.

Just the fact that you think sitting near the top in warzones consistently means anything useful, separates you from the good scoundrels.

Yeah, it just proves I know how to play a scrapper better than you I guess. I know how to get in, get my kill and get out so I can re-stealth and get back in for another kill.

scoundrels: worst damage, worst utility, worst heals, worst tanking, worst story, worst everything.

 

This is the truth, pass it on to your friends.

Smugglers in general weren't ever meant to tank. So can't argue that point... Although that's like saying a Geo Metro is the worst car for a demolition derby.

Are you kidding me? How is an instant 3.5k bubble even close to comparable to a 3.5k HoT? Have you ever PvP'd in your life?

I didn't mean they are the same value. I just mean you can count both as healing. In this case - yes, the sage has some very decent spike healing when taking force armor into account. If you want to compare spike healing all you have to do is the same steps as before:

1) Give it your best as a sage for 10 seconds - record it.

2) Give it your best as a scoundrel for 10 seconds - record it.

3) compare the numbers from the produced movies.

I didn't mean they are the same value. I just mean you can count both as healing. In this case - yes, the sage has some very decent spike healing when taking force armor into account. If you want to compare spike healing all you have to do is the same steps as before:

 

1) Give it your best as a sage for 10 seconds - record it.

2) Give it your best as a scoundrel for 10 seconds - record it.

3) compare the numbers from the produced movies.

Once again, have you ever PvP'd before?

Sitting there uninterrupted doesn't matter PvP, it's how badly we can be cc'd/interrupted/etc compared to other classes.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=274982

Also, 10 seconds won't prove anything in a PvP environment.

Sages/Sorcs have been the most over powered class since day one.

I have cold hard numbers.

Go to your server and search for Scoundrels/Ops 50

Then do a search for Sages/Scors 50

Those numbers do not lie

You're confusing 'Not the best at anything' with 'worst at everything.' The two aren't the same.

For the most part, I agree that as pure DPS Scoundrels are amongst the weakest classes due to the lack of a range closer (and general melee inadequacies) and energy management issues. Of the three healers we're also probably the worst, although not that much worse than Commandos.

We do make some of the strongest Hybrids, however. I think we actually make the best Offhealers due to the awesomeness that is SRMP and its low position in the tree, for example. It's not much but I'm also finding such hybrids are very survivable (typically <5 deaths in a WZ, often <2, unless I'm suicide-defending a node against overwhelming odds (DOT, die, return, DOT, die, return, etc.)

I hope they fix our energy management issues (which would improve our sustained damage considerably) and give us a gap closer (in combat sprint, basically) but to say we are the worst at everything just isn't true.

I realy tryed to love this class .

But now with 33 I just must admit: this class is freaking underpowered!

As healer (left tree)?

- no spammeble bubble

- no relieble CC

- week heals compared to both other classes

- insane energy problems

- far to squezy in PvP (once the enemy see you, you are dead. no way around)

As close combat (middle tree)?

- again far to squezy

- pur damage once you burned your combo

As long/mid range (left shared tree)?

- nice AoE but again pur singel target DPS. Even my Jedi Knight TANK can do more DPS against singel targets!

Over all the hole designe is bad .

Upper Hand need a big improve. Atm it's just to useless and to much of a "minigame". While a DD might have the time to build his combo around upper hand ... a healer does NOT have this time! When a heal is needed he MUST heal and can't build his combo around such a bad idear.

And for PvP?

Sorry no, all the realy usefull stuff is combined in Jedi Sage.

Bubble + burst walk speed + MUCH better damage + long term CC + AoE knockback + stun + MUCH better healing.

TL;TR

Redesigne this hole class!

Make it ranged OR meele but not this bad bad mix.

Overhaule the upper hand mechanic espezialy for the healer tree.

Remove the need to sit down for Scoundrels. It's nice for Snipers but has realy no place for a heal/meele/short range/long range Schoko-Schake "want to be all" class. To much "let's throw EVERYTHING in, mix it for 10 hours and check what happens".

Once again, have you ever PvP'd before?

 

Sitting there uninterrupted doesn't matter PvP, it's how badly we can be cc'd/interrupted/etc compared to other classes.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=274982

 

Also, 10 seconds won't prove anything in a PvP environment.

I only presented a method to do the calculations. I will create a refined version for the PvE aspect, then it must be up to another one to formulate an equation that takes interrupts into consideration, which shouldn't be too hard to do. Hell, you can write a simple simulation in matlab taking all parameters into account and compare it to empirical data. It would be lovely to have a healing calculator where you can take things such as amount of enemies and interrupts as variables.

Sages/Sorcs have been the most over powered class since day one.

 

I have cold hard numbers.

 

Go to your server and search for Scoundrels/Ops 50

 

Then do a search for Sages/Scors 50

 

Those numbers do not lie

I never said the OP was wrong. It might very well be that sages are way stronger than scoundrels. I only said that what he wrote was based on gut feelings. The same with what you just wrote, it only tells me how many are playing each class, it tells me nothing about their potential healing output.

I never said the OP was wrong. It might very well be that sages are way stronger than scoundrels. I only said that what he wrote was based on gut feelings. The same with what you just wrote, it only tells me how many are playing each class, it tells me nothing about their potential healing output.

Every wonder why BW don't let people have combat logs?

Every wonder why BW don't let people have combat logs?

Yeah, it's a shame. But that's why I would really love to see the data from people recording them healing for several minutes on a stationary target. Yes - it might be inaccurate to assume it will look the same in intense PvP or PvE scenarios, but at least it will provide some true data on the potential of the classes. Which in my opinion is better than guesswork and gut feelings

i tried Scapper and this Talent tree is limited to be BEHIND-Target. Fleshette Round/ Backblast. Top Tier ability Forces us to stand behind target at close range or the DPS will Drop Very Mutch !

There is no good Rotation WITH Flechette-Round at Range up to 15 m... Then you are forced to go Dirty fighting witch is not depended on Using Back-blast.

I would like that Dirty fighting was unlocking more Ranged Attacks. Not 30 meters maybe but a Viable Rotation at 15 meters, and not just 2 attacks.

And yes sawbones is terrible. We only use 40% of our 100 Energybar or we get Heavy gimped Energy Regen. So healing is very Hard in fights with Spike DMG.

This is just my "gut feel" but it seems a bit unfair to compare the classes like this since there's a difference in play style between them.

My understanding is that Sages are the really good burst healers, they can take a guy from low health back up with their massive heals.

Scoundrels with the amount of HoTs and not as powerful heals keep a guy's health from getting to the point where the burst healing is necessary. Scoundrels are supposed to be more subtle than sages I think.

Commandos are somewhere in the middle.

I'm not sure if your statement is correct in that "Scoundrel is worst class in the game at everything" -- consider revising it to "Scoundrel is not the best class at anything" but there's still alot of utility in the class itself that merits its value.