In the aftermath of giant cry threads, mines were made single target.

Previously, a mine would detonate when an enemy was within line of sight AND was within the detonation range, and the area would be everything in a zone. It was common for an enemy to fly to close hoping that no one would trigger the mine, and then someone would, and both would take damage. Another thing was to manually detonate a mine by deploying another mine while at the mine limit- for instance, if you can have out a single seismic, placing the next forces the first to detonate, and if an enemy was on the node, this could provide damage for him.

None of these work now. In order for a mine to hit two players, they need to be staggered just perfectly- one needs to enter the trigger range while the other is in the 500m (ion/concussion/interdiction) or 1500m (seismic) "shell".

I haven't memorably dealt damage to two people with a single one of these mines since the patch. The only conceivable way to even deal aoe damage now isversus terrible opponents who stay very close as you launch a mine between them and wait for it to arm, and I haven't seen that happen.

The seismic's mine greater blast radius (it's greater than the detection range by 1500m) should still offer some of these double hits- but in practice it does not. The fact that anything at all blocks the explosion means that in practice, these mines are single target.

Minelayers always relied on enemies derping into their stuff. Right now, that happens very little. It's much much easier to push a node than before, and these behemoths remain very poor off of the node, as always.

The value of the "boy bomber" is pretty much that hyper beacon. His ability to hold a node is greatly decreased, and he's very afraid of scouts. He's now a part of a node holding team- and not a particularly good part. His ability to dogfight is just as low as before, he still lacks a missile break, and now his mines are trivial to avoid, and his timing ability has essentially been removed.

I think minelayers lost a lot of their fun when they lost a lot of their ability to use geometry and distance to feint enemies into coming to close. I don't feel that minelayers are very interesting compared to before, and they definitely lost too much power. They still have a role, but I feel that the meta has shrunk compared to before, without question.

Single target mines are stupid.

A good fix would be to make all the mines work like seekers- they dash out to enemies some distance away and explode, optionally dealing some aoe damage. Seeker mines actually ARE aoe with the talent- while it's VERY unlikely that a perfectly staggered team of scouts 400m apart stray into your radius at the same time, seeker mines routinely shoot out to an opponent who has someone nearish him. The "half damage as aoe" constraint would come along with this mechanism, and presumably so would the thing where missile breaks and distortion work.

At this point, I think dropping a host of seeker-mine mechaniced mines would be superior, even with aoe as just a talent, and as half.

"boy bomber"

In light of the addition of the baby bomber, this should be "daddy bomber" (and similarly "mommy bomber", which really always made more sense).

I'm not sure allowing all mines to be broken by missile breaks is all that great an idea. Not unless DF's break goes.

People should be happy these are nothing like all the other mines in Star Wars - firing laser cannons and exploding into concussion missiles = lol.

Nevermind, I see what you're saying now.

I'll jump on my Razorwire and see how she feels these days. I do think that the existence of the T3, with its missile break and quick turning and faster travel, make it a more appealing node-holder and capable dogfighter--and that bacon is probably the main reason you'd consider a T1 over a T3.

In my (admittedly limited) experience the baby bomber has significantly less damage against targets on the node. Granted, I haven't kitted it out with cluster missiles yet, but still. The loss of a 2nd mine really hurts.

It's also not THAT much more survivable on the node given that it loses charged plating and missile breaks are least valuable on the node.

I think the baby bomber is a fun ship with lots of general efficiency that is still pretty much obviated by more specialized ships at the high end of competition because they actually do their job so much better.

Similar story with the baby gunship vs big brother gunship.

In my (admittedly limited) experience the baby bomber has significantly less damage against targets on the node. Granted, I haven't kitted it out with cluster missiles yet, but still. The loss of a 2nd mine really hurts.

 

It's also not THAT much more survivable on the node given that it loses charged plating and missile breaks are least valuable on the node.

 

I think the baby bomber is a fun ship with lots of general efficiency that is still pretty much obviated by more specialized ships at the high end of competition because they actually do their job so much better.

I've been having a lot of success with Interdiction Drone + LLC's + Cluster Missiles. Waiting for enemies to close in on the node, then dropping ID to snare them all, then melting them with LLC's and Clusters, is quite effective. I've killed a LOT of Scouts, Dronecarriers and even T3 Strikes that way.

Of course, Charged Plating builds are immune to this, but they are pretty sparse on TEH these days.

I've been having a lot of luck with Interdiction Drone + LLC's + Cluster Missiles. Waiting for enemies to close in on the node, then dropping ID to snare them all, then melting them with LLC's and Clusters, is quite effective. I've killed a LOT of Scouts, Dronecarriers and even T3 Strikes that way.

 

Of course, Charged Plating builds are immune to this, but they are pretty sparse on TEH these days.

You can kill a lot of anything with anything. The test by fire is whether you would actually want to fly it when guarding a node in a match full of real pilots, or whether you would be more successful in a daddy bomber.

You can kill a lot of anything with anything. The test by fire is whether you would actually want to fly it when guarding a node in a match full of real pilots, or whether you would be more successful in a daddy bomber.

While this is the correct attitude for theorycrafting, the GSF population and crappy matchmaking make it mostly irrelevant in practice. The games in which there is even a brief "test by fire", let alone one the length of a match, are few and far between.

I'd say that at least 90% of the time, the game is decided the moment the queue pops. Even if 4 really good pilots group together, their fate is largely going to be determined by the other 12-20 people they are matched with and against, especially in Domination. In TDM, an individual has a bit more power to carry.

In short, what I'm saying is that in most of the matches, any marginal difference between the T1 and T3 isn't going to change the outcome of the match.

That's not to say all ship choice is irrelevant, even in lopsided matches. A single pilot choosing a T3 Scout instead of a T2 Strike might make a huge difference.

Or even a good Gunship pilot using a T1 Gunship vs. a T3 Gunship might determine the outcome of a relatively balanced match.

But I don't think T1 and T3 Bombers are all that far apart in terms of overall effectiveness. I suspect the T1 might only show its advantage in a very evenly balanced match between four premades--and most of that advantage would come from expert and coordinated use of multiple Hyperspace Beacons.

boy bomber

baby bomber

daddy bomber

mommy bomber

baby gunship

big brother gunship

This subforum has some really dumb jargon. It's especially egregious for a game type that is as newbie-unfriendly as GSF currently is.

On-topic, I haven't flown a minelayer since they got nerfed for no reason other than battle scout pilots can't handle hard counters.

At this point, I think dropping a host of seeker-mine mechaniced mines would be superior, even with aoe as just a talent, and as half.

I don't think they'd be superior, nonetheless :

- You're allowing Barrel Roll/Power Dive run through, as locking can't be acquired on a ship with an immunity.

- You give up manual detonation.

- The chances of hitting a second ship would be lower, as everything within 500m of the main target, would be within the extra 500m of detonation radius, while the reverse would be false. - EDIT : nevermind this point, somehow believed the AoE radius was that small.

And lastly, you make Distortion Field even stronger that it already is.

If there's one thing that mines need in my opinion, it's logic. They seem to all be based of an existing missile, yet, the mine/missile damage ratio seem completely random :

Seeker Mine is 130% of Cluster Missile

Seismic Mine is 70% of Proton Torpedo

Interdiction Mine is 75% of Interdiction Missile

Concussion Mine is 90% of Concussion Missile

Ion Mine is... ...not even worth mentioning.

That aside, it's not that impossible to hit multiple ennemies with current mines... It just that it usually doesn't work set as a trap/area denial, but works great when used as a "backwards aimed weapon"

I don't think they'd be superior, nonetheless :

- You're allowing Barrel Roll/Power Dive run through, as locking can't be acquired on a ship with an immunity.

- You give up manual detonation.

- The chances of hitting a second ship would be lower, as everything within 500m of the main target, would be within the extra 500m of detonation radius, while the reverse would be false.

 

And lastly, you make Distortion Field even stronger that it already is.

What if they didnt actually lock on... if some one becomes in range... they explode and any one within the explosive radios of the person that Triggered it is also hit..... they didnt lock they just "drifted" to that possition and exploded.

Additionally self detonation would still be allowed as when you drop a new one it explodes at location instead of where person triggered it as no one triggered it.

Could be complex to try and code that though.

Additionally self detonation would still be allowed as when you drop a new one it explodes at location instead of where person triggered it as no one triggered it.

With a detonation range smaller than trigger range, you'll hit nothing, even if it were to blast, actually.

With a detonation range smaller than trigger range, you'll hit nothing, even if it were to blast, actually.

You fail to understand... the trigger range and detonation range would not change at all with my suggestion. It would just explode from the epicenter of the one that triggered it instead... nothing else changes.

You fail to understand... the trigger range and detonation range would not change at all with my suggestion. It would just explode from the epicenter of the one that triggered it instead... nothing else changes.

I thought you were basing your idea on Verain's suggestion.

That aside, i think it would become rather OP if what you're describing is making mines have a "floating tether".

I thought you were basing your idea on Verain's suggestion.

 

That aside, i think it would become rather OP if what you're describing is making mines have a "floating tether".

Nope, Verain's issue is that mines are bassically single target now since the only one that gets hit by them is the person that triggers them.. by doing this it solves that problem as people are more likely to be in range and LoS of the person that triggered them then they are to be in range on of the mine itself.. It still doesnt allow for self detonation to hit people who are LoSed and other such things.

It solves Verain's presented problem while also keeping the reason they were nerfed intact.... And of course any buff is called OP or any nerf called overboard by at least 1 person until it is done. None of us can actually presume how this would go... further more it would still be weaker then it used to be, but stronger then now... which is the intent behind this asking.

The point is that this would mostly be a buff, and the ability of distortion to break locks is whatever. It won't be that much stronger with that, but with the enhanced trigger range and ability to actually AOE, minelayers might be played again.

I don't feel that the current setup is anywhere near acceptable- the mines obey such special physics that I don't even understand why they are what they think they are. Stasie actually hit three people with a seismic mine today- all three were tailing him, and none shot the mine, or ran away. That's the only situation where you can deal area damage.

The ability to manually detonate mines is worthless. Again, mines have values like: "every target within 2000m of me triggers me, and every target within 2500m of me takes damage". Manual trigger, to be useful, has to involve a target between 2001 and 2500 meters. Any closer and the manual detonation is not needed, any farther and you can't hit him- and with lag, you can detonate to someone within that radius and STILL not hit them. It's worthless without the pass-through.

And it's always been dorky. If the minelayer can actually send an "explode now" trigger, why is there no actual button for that? If 1 launches a mine, why not let it become "trigger mine" when it is on cooldown, and after?

The skill has mostly been erased from these bombers. There's only a few "correct" places to put mines, the manual detonation isn't a thing, the aoe isn't a thing. If these all became seeker mines as their mechanic, the game would be much better off. It wouldn't allow the minelayer to use distance to outplay scouts as before, you wouldn't get that depth of play back, but you might actually have a use for type 1 bombers again.

Or they could revert the LOS nerf, which is ludicrous, and has, in fact, deleted the minelayer, just as I said it would.

Aren't you being overdramatic when saying it "deleted" the minelayer ?

No.

Minelayers were a valuable part of the meta. They aren't now. But we didn't suddenly gain a much deeper meta- we just see more gunships, a few more girl bombers, and way more scouts. The meta shrunk as a result of this change, which yes, effectively deleted the minelayer.

Having been a few matches where a minelayer still wrecked my scout with their mines or fended off an entire attacking enemy squadron, I haven't really noticed any big problem with the changes.

Granted, I don't have any numbers to back me up, but from my personal experience, minelayers aren't hurting too bad.

So...I guess I disagree and in my opinion minelayers are fine. Or more specifically I think mines are doing fine.

Having been a few matches where a minelayer still wrecked my scout with their mines or fended off an entire attacking enemy squadron, I haven't really noticed any big problem with the changes.

Is it possible that he's a vastly superior pilot, though?

To control for this, get on your own bomber. Otherwise you are comparing apples to lightsabers... or you might be.

No.

 

Minelayers were a valuable part of the meta. They aren't now. But we didn't suddenly gain a much deeper meta- we just see more gunships, a few more girl bombers, and way more scouts. The meta shrunk as a result of this change, which yes, effectively deleted the minelayer.

There's this "valuable part", and for you it's the side where every ship should be, and for me where no ship should be... Which for all intents and purposes, both lead to the same result : "no actual meta".

(The only difference between us, is that you want Z to be as awesome as X or Y, while I consider that Z can't reach the level of awesomeness of X or Y -no matter what-.)

Back on topic, what you call "deleted", I call "put in place".

I'll call a ship "deleted" when it will become un-usable or when it will be outperformed at its own specialty...

And it's not how minelayers are. They're usable, in both modes, and still unrivaled at building a bastion, actively clearing a definite area or sweeping its own six.

They're part of the meta. But not ruling over it like it used to.

Note that I'm not opposed to changes on Minelayers. They're far from perfect (Ion Mine for example)... Improving the AoE aspect, why not.

But asking for reverting changes in order to make them as (overly) decisive as before, heck no.

Okay, I see we're again faced to the dilemma of "which side of the meta is the good one".

 

There's this "valuable part", and for you it's the side where every ship should be, and for me where no ship should be... Which for all intents and purposes, both lead to the same result : "no actual meta".

(The only difference between us, is that you want Z to be as awesome as X or Y, while I consider that Z can't reach the level of awesomeness of X or Y -no matter what-.)

 

Back on topic, what you call "deleted", I call "put in place".

I'll call a ship "deleted" when it will become un-usable or when it will be outperformed at its own specialty...

And it's not how minelayers are. They're usable, in both modes, and still unrivaled at building a bastion, actively clearing a definite area or sweeping its own six.

They're part of the meta. But not ruling over it like it used to.

 

Note that I'm not opposed to changes on Minelayers. They're far from perfect (Ion Mine for example)... Improving the AoE aspect, why not.

But asking for reverting changes in order to make them as (overly) decisive as before, heck no.

I think his main problem is that they can indeed be beaten at everything that is their supposed "role" as you put. Clarion can clear an area much more effectively than a minelayer can and can get out of the area after cleared or hold it indefinitely.

They are not anywhere near as useful in TDM as a girl bomber because girl bombers offer heals to the team and are much more mobile then male bombers with drones. Male bombers can set up a "bastion" but it's more of a fortress of solitude that, btw, scouts aren't even afraid of anymore.

In domination, I'll argue that a girl bomber can be more area denial then a male bomber now. My reasoning? Interdiction drones can slow through LOS where interdiction mines can't now. As well as drones having more HP then mines so they wont necessarily be killed by ion spam. Seeker mine actually moves to enemies before it AOEs (if specced) and therefore has more opportunity to AOE then SIM does.

Honestly, like the OP stated... It's only saving grace is hyperspace beacon. Albeit that is a major bonus for groups... it is as you say "outperformed in its own specialty".

Just my thoughts.

Hugs and kisses.

I think his main problem is that they can indeed be beaten at everything that is their supposed "role" as you put. Clarion can clear an area much more effectively than a minelayer can and can get out of the area after cleared or hold it indefinitely.

They are not anywhere near as useful in TDM as a girl bomber because girl bombers offer heals to the team and are much more mobile then male bombers with drones. Male bombers can set up a "bastion" but it's more of a fortress of solitude that, btw, scouts aren't even afraid of anymore.

In domination, I'll argue that a girl bomber can be more area denial then a male bomber now. My reasoning? Interdiction drones can slow through LOS where interdiction mines can't now. As well as drones having more HP then mines so they wont necessarily be killed by ion spam. Seeker mine actually moves to enemies before it AOEs (if specced) and therefore has more opportunity to AOE then SIM does.

Honestly, like the OP stated... It's only saving grace is hyperspace beacon. Albeit that is a major bonus for groups... it is as you say "outperformed in its own specialty".

 

Just my thoughts.

Hugs and kisses.

You wrote this with SIM in mind, not Minelayers in general, forgetting they can use Concussion Mine or Seeker themselves, am I right ?

so, just my 2-creds... but... as far as my build goes, t1 bomber is still viable.

Since the declaration of SIM bomber as OP, even before the nerf, I dropped that setup and started developing a concussion/seeker bomber. It goes something like this:

LLC (yea, HLC would do more damage, but im playing with LLCs for the LOLs)

concussion mine

hyperspace beacon

seeker mine

charged plating

deflection armor

large reactor

dampening sensors

regeneration cap

With both of the mines i have chosen to go with the 3-mines t4 or t5 upgrade. with six mines and 3 turrets floating around a sat, ive started calling this build a 'Mass Area Denial' bomber. and it gets a lot of kills/assists. It takes more mines to get a kill, yea, bit it still puts out a massive amount of damage without the "OH COME ON" reaction seismic mines gives. Plus its just fun to create your own personal minefield. The 3 concussion mines makes up for the fact that each mine only hits one target. i havent done the math, but im willing to bet that 3 mines worth of 20% shield piercing is probably close to a seismic damage anyway. and if your seekers strip shields before they concussion mines are tripped, its more damage to armor than seismic.

Charged plating/deflection armor makes you sturdy to other bombers trying to blow you off your own cap, and sturdy enough against the ships without the weapons or upgrades to armor pierce. Besides, i feel like if they have those upgrades, you're screwed anyway. Fancy flying is better than any gear when dealing with those weapons in my none-too-humble opinion.

Hyperspace beacon is an asset to the team, and you get a lot of thanks for it, if you can keep it alive.

LLCs have a lot of arguments against them when compared to HLCs, and I can agree with most of your points. But they are fun. And that's the entire point of the game, having fun. Enough said.

So, with my build I havent noticed a reduction in usability or effectiveness. i actually didnt even notice this change until i read this post. Area denial is alive and well, it just required a change of tactics. Meta shifts. Sorry SIM bombers, but you had your day. (and a long, painful day for the rest of us it was.) try something new.

Back on topic, what you call "deleted", I call "put in place".

You don't see them, they are gone, they are deleted. I know that you, and many others, secretly wanted bombers to be gone from the one job they had, and this has mostly happened. Of course you wanted them "put in place". You'd prefer their "place" be "not a thing".

You wrote this with SIM in mind, not Minelayers in general, forgetting they can use Concussion Mine or Seeker themselves, am I right ?

Of course he didn't forget that. The whole point of the thread is that the Seeker Mine mechanic is the only damned aoe left to the mines, so it needs to share the wealth.

I get that the meta is thin. But I really think this change thinned it out heavily. There are simply less ships worth playing, less strategies to play as and counter. The game got worse with the patch, because there's less game.