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What is your idea to be 'fair' when your pre-mades are decimating the opposition?


philwil

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Team = 4 players

 

Your guild (or just friends flying together) has 2 or more teams flying one side.

 

You decimate the opposition time and again.

 

What do you do before you begin to fly live fire matches?

 

Continue on and fly against yourselves?

 

Or, do your teams switch sides altogether and decimate the side you just came from?

 

Or, would it be fairer (like life is fair to begin with, lol) to have one team move to the other side to make it more competitive?

 

I was born and bred on Harbinger GSF.

 

I know some continue to fly until it 'feels' wrong, then switch sides en mass.

 

Or, you see ace pilots leave to switch sides and there is a fast trickle of people following tot he other side with them.

 

It's just a strange animal to me.

 

I would move half the teams tot he other side to make it much more competitive, rather than decimate the opposition until suitable competition showed up.

 

But, thats just me.

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Not intended to be a rant against groups or pre-mades.

 

Just looking for solutions most of us could agree on.

 

Or not.

 

But, if we want to continue the slow growth (or death) of gsf. We must take a look at how we can make it better.

 

GSF match maker isn't going to do it. It surely is evident, lol. So we should help it along.

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^This indeed. Compassion is a must in a game with a shallow player pool. If you say "But Lendul I must be true to myself and go all out ruthless"

 

<<<<<<<League of Legends is that way...good luck.....surely you got the (skillz) to hang..right...right?

Edited by Lendul
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So I can't speak about everyones playstyles but I can explain mine and why we play that way.

 

I have normal 4 man team I play with almost all the time we often can't all be on at the same time so we'll pick up whoever asks to join us on that night as a replacement.

 

While playing if we encounter multiple very one sided we (the whole team) will swap factions and play a few more on that side. If it is again all one sided games often we just call it a night or try another server. (Lately our play sessions haven't been long enough to warrant this so it hasn't come up)

 

 

As you've mentioned many players ask why move the whole team not just half so you can play vs each other.

 

The thing you have to realize is we've been playing both GSF and together for a very long time now. What were looking for isn't just a close game, it's a close game that takes our entire team playing as hard as possible. That's the games were looking for. If all we wanted was the scoreboard to be closer we absolutely could just split the team up and play vs each other and we'd get some good games out of it, but we would never get "that" game.

 

Because if another group of players that could challenge us came along we could never play them because 2 of us are on each faction.

 

So for us even if "that" game is only 1 in 20, that's what we play for. The rest of the games is mostly us just goofing off in Clarions or practicing formations or what not. But when "that" game comes along that is what GSF is all about, having to communicate super fast while under pressure constantly.

 

 

For example just last night we had a couple of games that were pretty one sided games and we thought to switch sides. But we saw in GSF chat that other Republic teams were struggling so what we did was wait until that match ended an immidiately queue'ed hopping to get them and we did. What happened we got some amazing games vs an empire premade that we continued to play the rest of the night. 1000-800, 50-35, 750-1000. Stuff like that even though we were playing a 4 man premade super team we were still getting great games. (and to my dismay losing some of them)

 

Games like those are what my team plays for and that's why we never split up the group. I hope that helps explain why we don't do it.

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So I can't speak about everyones playstyles but I can explain mine and why we play that way.

 

I have normal 4 man team I play with almost all the time we often can't all be on at the same time so we'll pick up whoever asks to join us on that night as a replacement.

 

While playing if we encounter multiple very one sided we (the whole team) will swap factions and play a few more on that side. If it is again all one sided games often we just call it a night or try another server. (Lately our play sessions haven't been long enough to warrant this so it hasn't come up)

 

 

As you've mentioned many players ask why move the whole team not just half so you can play vs each other.

 

The thing you have to realize is we've been playing both GSF and together for a very long time now. What were looking for isn't just a close game, it's a close game that takes our entire team playing as hard as possible. That's the games were looking for. If all we wanted was the scoreboard to be closer we absolutely could just split the team up and play vs each other and we'd get some good games out of it, but we would never get "that" game.

 

Because if another group of players that could challenge us came along we could never play them because 2 of us are on each faction.

 

So for us even if "that" game is only 1 in 20, that's what we play for. The rest of the games is mostly us just goofing off in Clarions or practicing formations or what not. But when "that" game comes along that is what GSF is all about, having to communicate super fast while under pressure constantly.

 

 

For example just last night we had a couple of games that were pretty one sided games and we thought to switch sides. But we saw in GSF chat that other Republic teams were struggling so what we did was wait until that match ended an immidiately queue'ed hopping to get them and we did. What happened we got some amazing games vs an empire premade that we continued to play the rest of the night. 1000-800, 50-35, 750-1000. Stuff like that even though we were playing a 4 man premade super team we were still getting great games. (and to my dismay losing some of them)

 

Games like those are what my team plays for and that's why we never split up the group. I hope that helps explain why we don't do it.

 

 

Those WERE great matches. I happened to be on the opposing side.

 

I don't necessarily mean to split a four man team up. There are those that form two 4 man teams, or even go into OPS mode. I have been in Despair where we had 3 four man teams in ops.

 

Even two groups of aces or near aces can ruin the day of anyone checking out gsf for the first time. Specially when gs's pop them right as they spawn in TDM's and not give them room. Or mine their command ships.

 

You won't grow the community that way.

 

I can see a team of four...so you know what you are going to get. And are used to flying with each other.

 

I mostly solo. And in that case...you never know what you are going to get.

 

Not asking for touchy feelly, kumba ya. Let them fight for that one sat, but don't replenish the force there. Little things like that. So they can at least get a grasp on what it's all about.

 

Many noobs that do play and get blown the heck up badly usually have the same comment, or something close to it. '***? Why would anyone play this?'

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I shoot ships with red names. I don't shoot the ones with green names.

 

 

Also:

"Live fire" is what all the matches are. Even the wargames. The thundercat general doesn't mention that you are using real weapons against the faction you are at war with, because that should go without saying.

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As you've mentioned many players ask why move the whole team not just half so you can play vs each other.

 

The thing you have to realize is we've been playing both GSF and together for a very long time now. What were looking for isn't just a close game, it's a close game that takes our entire team playing as hard as possible. That's the games were looking for. If all we wanted was the scoreboard to be closer we absolutely could just split the team up and play vs each other and we'd get some good games out of it, but we would never get "that" game.

 

Because if another group of players that could challenge us came along we could never play them because 2 of us are on each faction.

 

So for us even if "that" game is only 1 in 20, that's what we play for. The rest of the games is mostly us just goofing off in Clarions or practicing formations or what not. But when "that" game comes along that is what GSF is all about, having to communicate super fast while under pressure constantly.

 

 

For example just last night we had a couple of games that were pretty one sided games and we thought to switch sides. But we saw in GSF chat that other Republic teams were struggling so what we did was wait until that match ended an immidiately queue'ed hopping to get them and we did. What happened we got some amazing games vs an empire premade that we continued to play the rest of the night. 1000-800, 50-35, 750-1000. Stuff like that even though we were playing a 4 man premade super team we were still getting great games. (and to my dismay losing some of them)

 

Games like those are what my team plays for and that's why we never split up the group. I hope that helps explain why we don't do it.

 

<Refers back to GSF turning into ground pvp thread....

 

The days where the old drak premade vs srw premade dont exist so much anymore. You aren't gonna get that experience so much anymore.

 

When a 200 point lead or 15 point lead is considered "good" - it doesn't compare to winning by 25 points or 1 to 2 kills at the buzzer.

 

Simply put, expecting to run into a super premade while running your own isn't practical. Just the other day someone in a group swapped over to complain - their premade group had over a 300 point lead by the time I backfilled and two sats. We ultimately won by taking all 3 sats and winning somewhere around 800-1000. Instead of congratulating folks for the amazing unforseen turnaround, she complained that we never let their team get a sat back and quit playing.

 

THAT is the kind of attitude you see in these groups now. I've seen so many pilots that SHOULD be better fail to get better because they are so heavily reliant on these groups that they have no idea how to handle "competitive" situations. Instead of pushing him/herself beyond their comfort zone, they repeat the same behavior over and over and fail to notice what they could do better because their team advantage allows it to work, like bomber spam.

 

Just a few days ago someone complained that I was always running a premade group. (Was not grouped for that match.) She was upset that they lost with the standard bomber spam tactic. I was just lucky to get some solid pilots out of the draw and we beat them soundly because enough of us actually knew what we were doing for a change. I have grouped all of what 5 times in the last 5 months or so, and it was only because groups already existed taking priority and getting me skipped. (When there aren't groups already going, solo q is relatively safe, but once there are its easy to get skipped since we rarely have the pilots to facilitate two games at once for any reasonable amount of time).

 

I made one person's ignore list after he ranted about how "you people" group up forming premades to beat up on everyone - despite being on his team and fighting against said premade. Granted, same pilot complained a lot about people being bad when most were just inexperienced.

 

One pilot went on a 5 minute tirade complaining about me complaining. Same pilot runs nothing but bombers, feels no remorse and actively tries to decimate teams when his team gives him the opportunity. 28 alts and he's never improved as a pilot as he's never been willing to fly outside of his comfort zone.

 

Even today someone bothered to swap over and complain that "my" team was beating up on noobs excessively and spawn camping. I was not grouped and was already holding back once I realized the competition wasn't as fierce as I expected. I didn't chastise him/her for complaining, I didn't berate him/her or say they needed to magically form a premade out of thin air like people have expected me to do.

 

If you want to get those matches that push your team to perform their hardest, you've first got to facilitate enough community growth to allow the pilots to develop to a level to make that possible. I can't even remember how long it's been since the last time I saw BOTH sides fielding all ace level pilots.

 

The closer matches are, the more people realize how little improvements can change the outcome. Those little improvements often lead to them realizing other improvements they can make. Close matches do a lot more for player retention the blowouts, even if its just in keeping the queue active.

 

Lastly - the way I had it explained to me is that some people have this philosophy that as I'm not paying for their game I have no right in dictating how they play. While no sub or pass is even required for gsf, ultimately it expresses that some people will play the way they want to regardless of the situation.

 

The community prioritizes their own enjoyment over encouraging new growth of the community. Initially, I tried evening things out on my own and hoping others would be inspired to do the same only to be constantly disappointed to the point of creating the thread of gsf ending up like ground pvp. I was frustrated and ate losses galore losing in blowout matches and complaining constantly because I couldn't believe people were so willing to obliterate so many random newer players who'd never queue again and derive enjoyment.

 

You really can't change the mindset of some pilots - all you can do is choose whether or not to participate to "vocalize" your feelings on the matter. Matches aren't fun? Don't participate. That option already works for almost the entire SWTOR populace. It's better to stay hungry for a match then grow bitter out of frustration - at least in my experience.

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Hey singapore, it is interesting that you bring this up, as the decision has recently been made for SRW to engage in a more active micromanagement role on the shadowlands server in order to grow the population there, as I briefly discussed with you when we flew last night. Actively balancing factions, individual encouragement, advice, as well as some small, server specific events are how we plan on approaching this. Lately, with the disappearance of sumo, we have seen a noticeable uptick in the amount of competitive imperial players fielding teams, as well as an increase in the amount of newer players trying out gsf across the board. We have made the decision to try to nurture this activity as best we can, and be careful not to break it, as has been done before. It is a bit of a departure from standard GSF behavior, but we feel it is the right direction to be taking at this time to try to help a server that has been suffering from AFK abuse for so long.

 

I will be eagerly reading the responses to this thread to see everyone's thoughts on implementation.

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I am thinking most people think this thread is a load of crap.

 

But, that's okay, lol.

 

I hadn't mentioned any names, groups, or injured any animals in the posting of this topic.

 

I know vexxial is pulling my leg. Because, that's what he likes to do. :D

 

I just fly.

 

And, for reasons apparent, I don't post much at all here.

 

So, I will stick to thw main topics of steaming matches and training threads.

 

Really....I am here just for the Kirxarcs comments.

 

I don't have too big of an ego. Like some.

 

Oh...and Drakolich...I bet you don't remember this.

 

When you were first flying on Harbinger, you asked to join our group, which we obliged.

 

We flew one flight...then you said you had to go to bed.

 

In our next match, you were flying on the opposing faction, LOL.

 

You could have told us the truth and not hurt our feelings. :D

 

'I am going to play on the other side with friends.'

 

Not hard. LOL!

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The days where the old drak premade vs srw premade dont exist so much anymore. You aren't gonna get that experience so much anymore.

 

Here's the thing you're wrong because they do. I hadn't played in over a month I came back this week and played a mere 3 hours. I played those 3 hours with a 3-4 man premade over 2 nights.

 

We lost 3 games, 2 where we faught a 4 man team and a 3 team at the same time. (They told us later they weren't coordinating to do that it just happened) The last loss was a really good Denon game in which they got a lock on C and B and then we couldn't break it.

 

We've played 11 games so far the scores are here.

 

1: 502-1000

2: 727-1000

3: 50-25

4: 1000-10

5: 1000-630

6: 50-27

7: 50-12

8: 50-24

9: 766-1000

10: 1000-472

11: 48-30

 

As you can see even in a small amount of games we are getting the challenge we're looking for.

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I am thinking most people think this thread is a load of crap.

 

I don't think that at all, more information is always better. I hope my explanation on our teams practices gave you some of what you were looking for. :)

 

Oh...and Drakolich...I bet you don't remember this.

 

When you were first flying on Harbinger, you asked to join our group, which we obliged.

 

We flew one flight...then you said you had to go to bed.

 

In our next match, you were flying on the opposing faction, LOL.

 

You could have told us the truth and not hurt our feelings. :D

 

'I am going to play on the other side with friends.'

 

Not hard. LOL!

 

You're right I don't remember that. I can tell you what probably happened though. I went to the other faction to say goodnight/goodgames and a friend of mine there asked me to play one more game with them before I headed out.

If I did however play a whole bunch of games on the other faction afterwards then I have no words lol, my bad?

 

I definitely have told people "I am going to play with others" and left before. Sorry if that upset you, however from the amount of "LOL"'s I think it made you laugh more then anything. ;)

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I had a really good reply written up and hit submit and it got erased in transit :( So I'll try this again.

 

Sunday evening, there were seven of us flying in Gone Sithing. Most of us were in voice and we had many good games, a few wargames where we were cursing at each other in voice and just having fun. We never tried to synch our queues to play with/against eachother and most of the time we were in separate matches. I think three times all seven of us wound up against Drako and his team. We won two of the three and had fun. They were close matches from what I can recall and as fair as can be expected.

It has been a while since I've made an ops group for gsf and try not to these days. If the situation comes up where an ops is formed, then we actively try to make the teams as "even" as possible. Spilt the strong fliers among the weaker ones. I'm not picky who I fly with either and will group with anybody. Usually pick up in guild and then /gsf.

Like Drako, I fly for fun and a challenge. Almost a year ago now, I ran into Drako on another server and invited him to come fly against a group I would cobble together the next evening when my guild still held "fly nights". The challenge had, for the most part, left Harbinger and my groups were almost always winning. This was before Harbinger was the gsf capitol server of the game for NA servers.

To speak of making sides more even, I'm not going to break up a group of only four into groups of two and send a couple over to the other side. However, I will take my group of four and we will go to the other side if things are very lopsided or there are too many wargames. I will sometimes communicate this in guild or /gsf. More often than not though, my group will just migrate and fly the opposite side.

Monday night, the pubs were horrid and in the few games I did imp side were SO lop sided that my group and I went pub...three of the four I had imp side. We grouped up pub side, picked up a fourth and proceeded to have some very fair, even matches. Won some, lost some and then Drako and his group came on. We ended up in a couple of games together and then both groups (without telling the other) decided to off queue so as not to wind up on the same team again. It worked and we never saw each other again.

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Yeah Drak. kinda figured. Light hearted dig at you on my part. Only because it's tough to kill you. :D

 

Maulkat, I know you try.

 

Just thought I'd make this to see different perspectives on the subject. Or, I could have leafed through multitudes of posts trying old ideas and thoughts. But, they change over time, like everything else.

 

Harder to be a true 'noob' than when we started at the very beginning with early release.

 

Remember, those that came in the month after? We rocked them hard, LOL. And we were only a month into it. Then, when it went live for free to play...the ones that had been playing a month, two months wrecked them too.

 

So, the writing was on the wall then, LOL.

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Vexxial wasn't joking about making an effort to improve faction balance on Shadowlands.

 

We tried it tonight, and had about 3 1/2 hours of pretty much continuous queue pops, more than half of which were strongly contested games. At one point there were even two instances worth going.

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Here's the thing you're wrong because they do. I hadn't played in over a month I came back this week and played a mere 3 hours. I played those 3 hours with a 3-4 man premade over 2 nights.

 

We lost 3 games, 2 where we faught a 4 man team and a 3 team at the same time. (They told us later they weren't coordinating to do that it just happened) The last loss was a really good Denon game in which they got a lock on C and B and then we couldn't break it.

 

We've played 11 games so far the scores are here.

 

1: 502-1000

2: 727-1000

3: 50-25

4: 1000-10

5: 1000-630

6: 50-27

7: 50-12

8: 50-24

9: 766-1000

10: 1000-472

11: 48-30

 

As you can see even in a small amount of games we are getting the challenge we're looking for.

 

Except none of those matches are even remotely close. I'm really gonna have to start uploading screen shots to remind you folks what a "close" match looks like =p. I even started taking screenshots of people complaining in gsf chat.

 

But even then, a lot of why I started taking post game screenshots was to evaluate performance across the board, not just a few select individuals. When all but one or two players of a team are all at the top or bottom, not only is it clear that one side of 6+ players got no enjoyment out of that match, that's also a notable number of people who won't be in queue for long if ever again.

 

When people feel a match is a lost cause, they're far more likely to put little to no effort. When people feel that what they do matters they are far more likely to try harder and make an effort to improve.

 

Just yesterday I logged in to catch an ace level pilot say that after a month long break the match he just got out of was enough to make him want to take another month long break. He was also someone that used to love to complain about me complaining.

 

My biggest issue with the grouping was less about the grouping, more about how they forgot what it was like to be on the losing side, especially in one-sided matches. One pilot said she'd never solo q again, and that was after a SINGLE match. Imagine what it's like for random folks who are new to GSF and have no idea who anyone is and is just trying to get their bearings.

 

My personal stake in all of it is that I want better pilots. When the average skill level increases, so does competitiveness. We don't get better pilots if they quit out of frustration before ever getting the hang of GSF in the first place. We also don't get better pilots when they grow complacent in their groups and aren't pushed beyond their comfort zone.

 

Just yesterday I had a match where no one even managed to break 10k damage aside from my 43k. 7 people and at least a few were veterans and the only one who really deserved an exemption was the bomber pilot guarding the sat that the enemy team was kind enough to not take given the lopsided battle. Sure, I knew it was gonna get ugly and was an instant loss from the loading screen. But given I finished all the Alderaan heroics save for one just waiting for a pop, I endured the frustration instead of just dropping out. I didn't even get skipped, as I was monitoring queue. People just weren't willing to spend 15 minutes getting massacred.

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Games that end 50-40something or 1000-900something are rare. Games that end on time are even rarer... It's true that the games Drakkolich posted aren't of the type where you sit on the edge of your seat, but they are pretty well balanced. One team was better, but there was no stomp in most of them.

 

I'd call that as balanced as you get in most cases.

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There are few good solutions to these issues, and fewer still are realistic and easy to implement.

 

I regularly solo-queue into awful matches that, from the onset, are clearly destined to be ten to fifteen minutes of misery. This gets to be mentally taxing, and particularly galling when complaints are made that I'm 'in a premade' while I am actively solo-q'ing into said awful matches. Eventually, I need to group for purposes of sanity preservation or alternately quit/switch servers.

 

On the other hand, I was just recently invited to fly with Drakolich and Verain (and later Xiaoyu joined in). Fully aware that I would be committing the sin of being 'in a premade' and even worse, on voice (since apparently the purest and noblest form of GSFing is solo-queuing blind into a team that makes no effort to coordinate) I proceeded to enjoy socializing and flying a few matches.

 

Because our 3-man made the mistake of just hitting the 'Group Battle" button to see what would happen, we were placed in a couple matches with another pubside group (with Lucklessa, Meraxus, and MaxmillianPowers who may or may not all have been grouping). This led to an immediate outcry impside from Krixarcs that we were in an '8 man premade' and later that I was now a 'disgrace' in his eyes, essentially for attempting to enjoy the game. Never mind that our group, after two matches of being sorted onto the same team as the other premade, then actively sought to stagger our queues to avoid that. Never mind that our then 4-man premade had some close matches going both ways. The evil deeds were done, we had grouped and won matches, therefore casting us as blights on the game.

 

There is no way to set up custom matches to ensure fairness, which continues to be maybe the greatest mistake Bioware made in GSF's design. The magical raindance necessary to get premades fighting against each other by timing when they queue is only marginally effective and frustrating to participate in.

 

The level of miserable bs and grief that veteran pilots receive for trying to extract some tiny measure of fun out of this game is ludicrous and infuriating. The general apathy and indifference of the great majority of new and inexperienced pilots is infuriating. The growing list of trolls who have little interest in anything other than belittling people and being negative jerks in GSF chat (and here on the forum) is infuriating. The entire post-3.0 level of Bioware's negligence towards what had been a much larger segment of their player base is infuriating.

 

So, I guess it's safe to say I'm furious.

 

I can see only one route off the fury road, and it requires the following:

 

  1. Coordination on a very large scale by an entity that can control who is flying with who on both factions, along with where and when they are doing it.
  2. Continual active outreach to every single new player seen in matches that points them to all the resources available to help them learn how to play the game
  3. Availability of player-run in-game tutorial resources to supplement the guides, videos, etc.

 

Wow, that sure sounds like a lot of work, doesn't it? And like the people who put such a far reaching and involved plan into action would probably spend more time managing it than they would enjoying the game itself (what of it there is to enjoy these days, anyway).

 

Fortunately, this precise plan seems to be in-action, perpetrated by the oft demonized and maligned megaguild SRW... surely for some nefarious scheme to ruin everyone's fun, right? But... wait how can they be ruining fun nobody is having in the first place... well, set aside your cognitive dissonance and let's see what happens.

 

I'll be running GSFschool sessions on Shadowlands impside next week in support of this effort.

 

- Despon

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Nice post Despon!

 

Only thing I would say is, that we must 'police' ourselves for the most part.

 

You are going to run into matches where it is 50-10 or 1000-50......

 

But to continuously q in that knowing, after a game or two of that type of gameplay, will continue, with little variance, is detrimental to the GSF community.

 

If there are many aces, or near aces on one side, I do move to the opposing faction. Not all the time, mind you. Specially if I am trying to complete a weekly. But, barring that, I make an effort.

 

It takes individuals to make the call on how to even things up.

 

I have worked on a weekly that seemed like it took ten matches to complete....and that is how bad it was, lol. In reality, it took 7.

 

Once, I even went to the other side and said 'Hey, I just want to kill the turrets for my achievement'...the 8 turret kills in 100 matches (uggh).

 

I went back to the other side, was in the match, 3 capped us and I was shooting turrets, but the sought out to kill me anyways. Despite them saying 'ok' for killing turrets. OI!

 

I am not angry at groups, pre-mades. What I might be angry about is the implementation of multiple ace groups on one side and none on the other, or pre-mades with no opposition. It kind of is the same thing, even if not intended.

 

2 groups of four aces or equivalent, in my view should decide which group would switch sides. Instead of rattling off 7 or more bone rattling, one sided affairs.

 

But, I am not the controller. I don't pay the subscript[tions. I don't WANT to be 'THAT' guy that is known as a complainer, cryer, boo hoo artist. But, after so many huge losses in a row, I have to step back, lol.

 

I have been told 'Losses to not matter. It's HOW you play. Not the win loss record.'

 

That is true to a point. But, if you are a true new person to gsf, after a few matches like described above, it doesn't matter 'how' they played. just the fact they can't get a win. They are frustrated.

 

I have sent whispers to some of those who posted despair in chat during battle, or just after. To say that it does get better. Your timing was just off. Come join me and we will fly together. Sometimes they would take the offer, many times not. But, those that do, I have laughing, and having a good time by the time they are done. Even if we continued to lose.

 

So, take that noob pilot under your wing. Pat them on the back. Talk to them like they are a person instead of yelling at them when they arent 'doing things right', etc, etc. It would go a long way towards recruiting more pilots.

 

Bada Bing!

 

Hope that people can follow what I was saying. I know I get wordy and too descriptive sometimes, LOL.

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Except none of those matches are even remotely close. I'm really gonna have to start uploading screen shots to remind you folks what a "close" match looks like =p. I even started taking screenshots of people complaining in gsf chat.

 

What do you expect? GSF isn't basketball. Those games aren't close score-wise but some of them look "good" in a sense that they weren't easy wins for one team. Usually any DOM game where the losing team has around 700 points or more is a "good" game. For a result like 1000-700 the losing team has to be able to hold 2 satellites for a while. In deathmatch I'd consider any game with less than 10-15 kills difference as "good". I've seen a lot of deathmatches turning from a 5 point advantage into a 5 point disadvantage within less than a minute - 10 kills difference in deathmatch is somewhat close because with that difference a game could heat up any time.

 

However, in my opinion the best indicator of the quality of a match is the timer. The longer a game takes, the closer the teams. An example would be a deathmatch with a 20-40 result after timeout - one team has double the kills but it still didn't manage to kill enough - both teams are close enough together in skill to not let the other team win. I'd say any game taking longer than ~12 minutes is a game which can be fun to play in on both sides.

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GSF, in my mind, is kind of like the aerial battles of WWI, when air combat was still in its infancy.

 

I can't find any concrete sources on this, but from what I have read in the past, one of the ways in which air combat was pseudo-regulated (to avoid dishonor and war crimes) were through rules of air combat (i.e. the Dicta Boelcke) but also by something of an informal/unspoken "honor code."

 

It might be helpful to develop something like this in order to limit the amount of overkill that can be seen when a very strong team is matched up against a weaker team.

Edited by Eldarion_Velator
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To address something to Roland here, I solo queue on alts, even those that are known to be me. I stated I'm not going to solo on Six/Lucky as that paints a large target on my name to be focused.

The close games you crave have been very rare since the start of gsf. In the 2+ years it's been out, I can think of around 10 where a dom has been 990+/1000 and, a few more have been 900+/1000. Yes, those are epic, nail biting games and fun win or loss. An "average, fun or good" game is the 700+/1000 variety. Far more often, I'll see TDM that end with less than ten between scores. Just had one the other day that was a 49/50 loss. These close games do happen, but they have always been more rare than the 700+/1000.

I clearly remember what it's like be on the losing end of a roflestomp. They happen to me consistently still. Even sometimes when I'm on Six/Lucky. When I'm against true noobies, I will fly my weakest ship, the t2 scout. In other peoples hands, the t2 scout is one of the most dangerous ships.

 

At Despon, I know of a few fliers on Harbinger that feel solo queue and no voice is the noblest and most pure form of gsf. I'm not going to name names and I don't think any of these people read the forum anyway. One has even told me, he/she never groups when I've offered one. This person then complains when placed on a losing team about the lack of coordination and belittles the team for losing.

Yes, the night you flew with Drako and used voice, I had three pub side as the imps that night were super over powered. After those two games where were put together, both groups actively off queued so that wouldn't happen again.

 

I agree with Danalon too as I stated previously in this post.

 

I think a good thing that COULD happen in a match is limit the type of ships that can be used in a given match. Thing is, HOW would that be determined? Group finder is nothing but code. Doesn't know which pilot would be better suited to be a GS, bomber, scout or SF. Which of the pilots in a given match would be "allowed" to fly that type of ship? If there's a better way to get more of the 900+/1000 or 49/50 games, I don't know what that is.

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What do you expect? GSF isn't basketball. Those games aren't close score-wise but some of them look "good" in a sense that they weren't easy wins for one team. Usually any DOM game where the losing team has around 700 points or more is a "good" game. For a result like 1000-700 the losing team has to be able to hold 2 satellites for a while. In deathmatch I'd consider any game with less than 10-15 kills difference as "good". I've seen a lot of deathmatches turning from a 5 point advantage into a 5 point disadvantage within less than a minute - 10 kills difference in deathmatch is somewhat close because with that difference a game could heat up any time.

 

However, in my opinion the best indicator of the quality of a match is the timer. The longer a game takes, the closer the teams. An example would be a deathmatch with a 20-40 result after timeout - one team has double the kills but it still didn't manage to kill enough - both teams are close enough together in skill to not let the other team win. I'd say any game taking longer than ~12 minutes is a game which can be fun to play in on both sides.

 

That was in reference to them being "challenge". I wasn't referring to games being close in general. There are matchups where you know you can lose at any time and matchups where you know you just have to go through the motions and the win is essentially guaranteed.

 

Timer is generally a good indicator however its also possible to draw matches out. Like I never understood why people used to park bombers in the box but someone one day informed me its what they do when they're annoyed at the match or the amount of gunships. Essentially it's their silent protest saying if it's not gonna be fun for me we're not going to make it fun for you too.

 

A 20-40 match one team clearly won. Just because they didn't hit 50 doesn't suddenly make them both lose as if it was a draw like early warzone end and both points even.

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That was in reference to them being "challenge". I wasn't referring to games being close in general. There are matchups where you know you can lose at any time and matchups where you know you just have to go through the motions and the win is essentially guaranteed.

 

I love how you're still talking about the scores being not close as us not being challenged. Did you overlook the fact that we lost 3 of the games. How exactly were we not challenged in any of those games if we freaking lost 3 of them?

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To address something to Roland here, I solo queue on alts, even those that are known to be me. I stated I'm not going to solo on Six/Lucky as that paints a large target on my name to be focused.

The close games you crave have been very rare since the start of gsf. In the 2+ years it's been out, I can think of around 10 where a dom has been 990+/1000 and, a few more have been 900+/1000. Yes, those are epic, nail biting games and fun win or loss. An "average, fun or good" game is the 700+/1000 variety. Far more often, I'll see TDM that end with less than ten between scores. Just had one the other day that was a 49/50 loss. These close games do happen, but they have always been more rare than the 700+/1000.

I clearly remember what it's like be on the losing end of a roflestomp. They happen to me consistently still. Even sometimes when I'm on Six/Lucky. When I'm against true noobies, I will fly my weakest ship, the t2 scout. In other peoples hands, the t2 scout is one of the most dangerous ships.

 

 

I wasn't naming people specifically. But I've had more than 10 games that were within 100 points and I have flown fewer matches and for a shorter period of time. But the nature of dom makes it a lot harder for those matches to be closer regardless.

 

However, saying you won't solo on two characters because you will get focused is what holds you back. There are a number of people who fail to see noticeable gains because they're on the strong side so frequently they're never really pushed out of their comfort zone to do better. After all, it's harder to get pushed when you're already better than the weaker competition. Yet at the same time, if it wasn't for being invited to groups when I was a much greener pilot, I would have never invested into GSF enough to bother getting better in the first place.

 

Just today I had the luxury of having a match with Neutrinos on the other side. He was 21-3-2 with just shy of 68k damage. I was 20-3-5 with a little over 77k. Just him being in the match was enough for me to push beyond just going through the motions. We even both had a teammate right below us with 7 kills each, albeit mine was under heavy pressure from neutrinos and still managed to do twice the damage of neuntrino's teammate. Yet, despite us 4 being so close in score, the match ended 32-50. That's 4 people that were effectively evenly matched, the real gap was in the other 12.

 

To put it in perspective - Neutrinos made up 42% of his team's kills where I made 62% of ours despite our actual scores only off by 1 kill. Every player on his team managed to get credit for at least one kill while 3 on my side were 0'd out. In other words, it was a lot less about the veteran pilots deciding the match as the ultimate responsibility fell on the newer players.

 

Now when you put most of the veteran pilots on one side, those new players no longer play a significant role in deciding wins and losses, they just become fodder.

 

Ask yourself honestly if you'd be willing to get blown up continuously in matches you can't win.

 

Someone has to lose in order for someone to win, but everyone basically loses if there aren't enough to populate the queue.

 

Despon makes a fine point that out of frustration and for sanity's sake he'll group. He and I have been up against enough bomber spam alone solo q'd to find plenty of justification. In a manner of speaking, its almost as if being as skilled as he is becomes punishment. As much as I hate seeing him grouped, I've seen him solo plenty and I know he doesn't need them to win so much as just to keep him sane. And yet he's still making a conscious effort to improve the playerbase.

 

We have no choice but to police ourselves and the growth and decline of the community is left upon our shoulders.

Edited by SeCKSEgai
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