Personally, I think that Arcann should have died via a self-sacrifice redemption instead of his mommy flying him to Voss to get healed. However, I think Vaylin should have been redeemed. She is literally a trauma survivor, only to be played like she is a psycho murderer. If we allowed Arcann into the Alliance, Vaylin should have been given the same chance.

 

If I had it my way Vaylin would have been Empress after Arcann's death in an attempt to save her. Arcann's last words would have been to her to not be like him and Valkorion. To remember Thexan. She would start to have a change of heart when a light side commander would challenge her in KOTET. She gets a redemption option when Valkorion does his "kneel before the dragon" BS. Outlander can kill her or redeem her. Ending still the same with everyone fighting Valkorion in your head.

 

Dark side commander could still kill her, manipulate her, etc.

Meh, some people are never willing to change, we can always try to help but they won't always take our hand. Vaylin was such a being, she had her chance with Senya during chapter 16 of KOTFE, Senya extended her hand to take her and Arcann, but while Arcann defended her Vaylin attacked her. At the end of the day Vaylin had the chance to reform herself but chose not, and IMO this makes the story all the more tragic, Arcann is another matter entirely though.

Considering he saved his mother from Vaylin's attack I'd say there was still some good in him, enough so that whatever ritual the Voss performed on him would cure him of his hatred, if you don't save him though you've pretty much left him where he was and in addition to that you kill the only person he may still care about in the galaxy other than himself, so there goes the chance for redemption as well for him in case you're DS.

You call Vaylin a trauma survivor, I say she was damaged beyond retribution. Her violent streak and extreme power would never allow her to be rehabilitated. Her slightest backslide would cause the death of whoever was trying to help her. I understand wanting to help her. I really do. But when she gets only a little bit angry at her therapist and snaps his neck with her mind it will set her back weeks or months in her therapy, and the new therapist would have to start from scratch with someone who just murdered ANOTHER therapist

You call Vaylin a trauma survivor, I say she was damaged beyond retribution. Her violent streak and extreme power would never allow her to be rehabilitated. Her slightest backslide would cause the death of whoever was trying to help her. I understand wanting to help her. I really do. But when she gets only a little bit angry at her therapist and snaps his neck with her mind it will set her back weeks or months in her therapy, and the new therapist would have to start from scratch with someone who just murdered ANOTHER therapist

 

If we can send

to be healed, we can send Vaylin to be healed. We're talking the Force, not someone's trauma focused CBT

You're not alone. Had the option of been there, I would have betrayed Arcann & Senya and sided with Vaylin ... even more so if I could backstab Theron & Lana! Vaylin would have fit in better for where the story is going (imo) ... we're going back to war between the imps and pubs and Arcann wants redemption :/ Vaylin would be jumping with joy for a chance to spill blood.

 

If we can send

a dread master

to be healed, we can send Vaylin to be healed. We're talking the Force, not someone's trauma focused CBT

 

We also tried to send the Sith Emperor to Typhon to be 'healed.'

Edited June 18, 2018 by Paulsutherland

I always think Vaylin has more reason to be redeemed than Arcann, she was tortured as a child.

If we can send

a dread master

to be healed, we can send Vaylin to be healed. We're talking the Force, not someone's trauma focused CBT

 

Yeah, and we never hear from Calphayus again, plus had we tried to heal him previous to killing the other masters and freeing them from the connection of the Phobis devices then we'd likely fail at it. Remember they were all bonded through that so... yeah, wouldn't work unless we somehow broke the connection, I'm more curious as to how Calphayus survived where as all the other Masters died seemingly.

 

You're not alone. Had the option of been there, I would have betrayed Arcann & Senya and sided with Vaylin ... even more so if I could backstab Theron & Lana! Vaylin would have fit in better for where the story is going (imo) ... we're going back to war between the imps and pubs and Arcann wants redemption :/ Vaylin would be jumping with joy for a chance to spill blood.

 

 

 

We also tried to send the Sith Emperor to Typhon to be 'healed.'

 

Considering her personality she's as likely to hit as you as the enemies, jokes aside.

Yeah because the Tol Braga's plan worked like a charm, or if you mean Master Suro by then she's not possessed by Tenebrae anymore, although that left mental scars on her obviously.

heh, she's no worse than your average Sith.

heh, she's no worse than your average Sith.

 

Guess that's something we can agree on at least.

Yes, Vaylin was a trauma survivor, but determinism does not excuse one's actions. Much like an addict, Vaylin was very much addicted to her power, you can not help someone who does not want help; who is not ready to change. That doesn't mean you give up on someone, but some people just want to see the world burn. She had the power to do that. She decided that either everyone was going to suffer or she was going to die. She left no option for redemption. It is precisely because of the trauma and torture she experienced as a child that her story is so tragic. Yes, you can say that that was just how the writers chose to write her story, but her story as written was no less an accurate depiction of someone that damaged by trauma. Could she have been redeemed? Possible, but not likely. To use a real world analogue, as portrayed she is the type of person who would either take their own life directly or indirectly by doing something that resulted in their death. Her story is the ultimate realization of choices having consequences.

Hey, all I wanted was to not actually torture her myself. I wasn't allowed to, and so my character tortured her at her original torturer's suggestion and then was somehow surprised when she wouldn't back down. And then blamed her for it all, including actions that she didn't actually do exclusively herself. Since I didn't get that, yeah, I'd like her back. Choice, I could get used to that if they actually were to give it to us.

 

Abuse survivor and brainwashing victim. I think she has a really good case for diminished responsibility. Even if not, I would have loved the ability to try with lines better than "Killing him won't heal your scars". And even Chapter 3's attempt, which I consider the best of them, is washed away the moment the story forces us to make her kneel to her abuser. I just wanted to make the attempt, even if it failed. Instead, I feel like I got someone else's power fantasy, and a particularly nasty one.

Edited June 19, 2018 by gamephil

There is one cutscene in which Vaylin walks on the bridge from the throne to the elevator and when she is almost at the elevator, she snips one of the Zakuul Knights off the bridge to her death. Just so. Why not. For that scene alone I despise her.

 

No one who treats other living things like that deserves redemption, empathy or a second chance. She is a monster and no matter what happened to her in the past, she actively chooses to remain a monster. Several times.

 

I understand the reasoning of the OP due to what happened to her as a child. But the game shows again and again that Vaylin is beyond redemption. She has nothing human left in her. The character is clearly portrayed as 100% evil. Arcann on the other hand is just 50% evil + 50% stupid. He is a mass-murderer nonetheless.

 

I would have prefered it if the whole family would be gone by now. Maybe not Senya. Although it would have fit if she lost her will to live due to her broken heart. Like Padmé.

There is one cutscene in which Vaylin walks on the bridge from the throne to the elevator and when she is almost at the elevator, she snips one of the Zakuul Knights off the bridge to her death. Just so. Why not. For that scene alone I despise her.

 

No one who treats other living things like that deserves redemption, empathy or a second chance. She is a monster and no matter what happened to her in the past, she actively chooses to remain a monster. Several times.

 

I understand the reasoning of the OP due to what happened to her as a child. But the game shows again and again that Vaylin is beyond redemption. She has nothing human left in her. The character is clearly portrayed as 100% evil. Arcann on the other hand is just 50% evil + 50% stupid. He is a mass-murderer nonetheless.

 

I would have prefered it if the whole family would be gone by now. Maybe not Senya. Although it would have fit if she lost her will to live due to her broken heart. Like Padmé.

 

That knight failed was in charge of the factory on Darvanis, she failed to protect it and it ended up in the hands of the Mandalorians, Vaylin's action again, are no worse than your average Sith punishing a subordinate for failure, hardly a beyond redemption moment.

 

Every chance we have to approach Vaylin is ruined by a third element ... Arcann, the Zakuul party guy, Valkorion, Scorpio ... we never had a one to one scenario with her. When we do approach her and (my opinion) our characters decide listening to Valkorion, the man who tortured her is a good idea. We end up making decisions that likely push her into believing she has no choice but to act the way she does.

no worse than your average Sith punishing a subordinate for failure,

 

You do realize that the Sith are supposed to be evil, right? Sure, some Sith are more rational than others, and a few have even been redeemed, but those are all explicitly noted as odd cases for acting in a decidedly un-Sithy manner (e.g. Lord Praven from the Jedi Knight story). "Your average Sith" is a very bad person precisely because they do things like killing subordinates for failing.

 

Frankly, I found even Arcann's redemption to be kind of distasteful. No degree of repentance excuses what that man did, and by all accounts Vaylin is worse. While she's got a sad backstory, she's quite clearly way too far gone to be helped by anyone. Note that outside of flashbacks, she's only ever characterized as a generic one-note psychopath.

Frankly, I found even Arcann's redemption to be kind of distasteful. No degree of repentance excuses what that man did, and by all accounts Vaylin is worse. While she's got a sad backstory, she's quite clearly way too far gone to be helped by anyone. Note that outside of flashbacks, she's only ever characterized as a generic one-note psychopath.

 

I'd argue Arcann was worse in regards to the Knights, Vaylin killed her fair share of subordinates for screwing up one way or another, but Arcann had half of their overall number executed for the failure of the few at the security station, which if I recall Vaylin was hesitant to carry out the order until Arcann snapped at her.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Paulsutherland

I'd argue Arcann was worse in regards to the Knights, Vaylin killed her fair share of subordinates for screwing up one way or another, but Arcann had half of their overall number executed for the failure of the few at the security station, which if I recall Vaylin was hesitant to carry out the order until Arcann snapped at her.

 

Plus, it could be argued that he's the one with a "sad childhood". She was outright brainwashed, purposely broken, and magically mind controlled. Choice was something that was denied to her. And if that's not the case, the story is actually more disturbing, since they chose to show us all of that for kicks rather than a tragic story.

 

The whole "this one was worse than this one" thing has always been pretty damn disturbing, though. Personally, I prefer that he was treated likewise, it makes being able to save him (if we choose) after he killed billions more palatable. Doesn't help with her, though, and means there's less reason that she couldn't be when he was.

Edited June 19, 2018 by gamephil

Vaylin was not willing to seek redemption. It's as simple as that. The issue of Arcann being redeemable is not a question of whether he deserves it more, it's whether he was willing to try to become a better person.

 

They both killed millions (at least), arguably, neither one of them "deserved" redemption. The planets that Arcann destroyed, Vaylin is also guilty of destroying. If you don't think Arcann should be redeemed, then don't redeem him. It's left up to the player for a reason.

 

Vaylin has a tragic past, but that doesn't mean that she isn't a psychotic killer either. She doesn't just kill people for screwing up. She kills people for fun all the time.

 

There really isn't any reason to conclude that she would actually have been open to changing her ways if the Outlander had asked her slightly differently, absolutely nothing in her personality or behavior suggested this.

Edited June 20, 2018 by OldVengeance

I would have kept her the way she was for my Inquisitor. I don't need a redemption plot!

I would have kept her the way she was for my Inquisitor. I don't need a redemption plot!

 

I only want such a thing because of the whole lack of choice thing. If I felt she was not made this way, that would be good for the baddies. Not that it matters.

I only want such a thing because of the whole lack of choice thing. If I felt she was not made this way, that would be good for the baddies. Not that it matters.

 

meh, just throw her on the cartel market.

meh, just throw her on the cartel market.

 

Which is more than fine. I mean, I'd honestly accept them simply admitting there were issues, anything more than that is a bonus. I was just saying that if they were to give us a story, I'd like to have that choice as a possibility.

Yes, Vaylin should have gotten the magic ritual on Voss and Arcann the airlock treatment.

Yes, Vaylin should have gotten the magic ritual on Voss and Arcann the airlock treatment.

 

^

 

Arcann never had the dark side drilled into his head, it seemed like he was able to overcome it on his own with a bit or verbal support from Senya.

Yes, Vaylin should have gotten the magic ritual on Voss and Arcann the airlock treatment.

 

If Arcann had been presented the way Vaylin was, I would have zero problems saving him or with the ritual. If Vaylin had been presented as Arcann was, I wouldn't still be bitter about how the narrative wrote her off. It kind of feels as though they flipped the plan in the middle.

If Arcann had been presented the way Vaylin was, I would have zero problems saving him or with the ritual. If Vaylin had been presented as Arcann was, I wouldn't still be bitter about how the narrative wrote her off. It kind of feels as though they flipped the plan in the middle.

 

This is it exactly. Arcann over and over again consciously makes dark side choices, ordering half his subordinates to kill the other half and doing Taris times five were only two of them. There's no brainwashing to control his choices like we see with Vaylin.

 

Arcann choose to be a despot. Vaylin had no choice.