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Suggestion: Bring back removed content aka NiM EV & KP


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Maybe this idea is kind of memey, but I've talked it over with quite a few of my fellow NiM raiders and each of them has agreed that given the content release cycle for this game, the last thing we need is content that once existed to be removed. tl:dr, I think Nightmare Master Mode difficulty Eternity Vault and Karagga's Palace should be returned to the game.

 

I get that Hard Mode tier EV & KP have become somewhat the joke of HM Ops, especially when compared to the main 5 Ops that have a Nightmare tier or the "Hardmare" of the 3 last Ops we've received that never got NiM to begin with. Maybe a NiM KP & EV would also become the joke of NiM Ops compared to the other 5 from a mechanical standpoint but if the DPS and Heal requirements were made difficult enough, it would still be a rewarding experience to go in and play and not to mention give people the opportunity to play content (mainly those that started after 4.0) and experience something they never played before or people that started after 2.0 the chance to experience an actual difficult EV & KP.

 

I still don't fully understand why Nightmare difficulty Eternity Vault and Karagga's Palace were removed at the start of 4.0 when everything was synced up to player max level. Yes, the mechanics from Nightmare Mode were exactly the same as Hard Mode, but DPS and Heal checks were still higher. Not to mention at the launch of 4.0, you could only get the highest tier gear from priority Hard Mode Operations and not Nightmare anyway so it's not like people could just run NiM EV and KP for gear till they turned blue... which is instead what they did for HM EV & KP when it was priority.

 

Throughout all of 4.0 and not until 5 months into 5.0 did we finally get a new Operation Boss. And even then it took 11 months for the full Operation to complete. I understand it has been said in interviews that another Operation is planned and that the raiding community in this game is at such a small size compared to the rest of the game, especially the NiM community, that allocating heavy resources into Operations at this point to get a quicker release cycle that many of us desire is financially irresponsible for the game. However having content that once existed removed is also unhealthy for the game. As much as I personally dislike level sync on the planets, Flashpoints & Operations being bounced up to max level in 4.0 and 5.0 was a huge step forward in keeping content alive, but removing a piece from that puzzle unfortunately was a small step back.

 

I don't think asking for the return of NiM EV & KP is asking too much of the dev team. The assets already exist, the mechanics were already the same, so really all that's left is to properly balance the fights' Health and Damage Output of the various bosses. Given that the devs are well aware of their target DPS numbers for all the disciplines and constantly tweaking them, I would assume (maybe I'm wrong) that tweaking the various damage output and health pools of all 10 encounters probably couldn't be too much more work than completely building a new boss from scratch, especially given that there is already a baseline of values thanks to Hard Mode.

 

Ideally the Heal and DPS checks for NiM EV & KP would be quite difficult given the lack of hard mechanics. Make the checks tight. Maybe healing is hard enough that traditionally single tank fights require 2 tanks just for swapping purely for cooldown usage or instead balance the DPS checks around 5 dps. Make it truly hard where even great performance might mean seeing a few seconds of enrage. As far as rewards go, 248 Unassembled Bracers and Belts are still the only 248 pieces not available via Ops and the Archived Ops achievements could be moved back to their respective sections (this isn't about me wanting the Archived achievements because I already have 100% there).

 

I think it would be really nice if this could be something we get returned to the game, especially as we wait for the new To Be Announced Operation. I get that completed Gods is finally here, and many are still progging and playing through it obviously, but it would be nice to have more options in game knowing that it once existed. Hopefully the community agrees with me. I would love for a response from Eric, Keith, Charles, or Mr. Ops Mastermind himself MattP <3

Edited by Hellhog
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I still don't fully understand why Nightmare difficulty Eternity Vault and Karagga's Palace were removed at the start of 4.0

 

Simply put, the NiM modes of EV and KP were even more of a joke than the HM versions. The ONLY difference was more health for the bosses; no additional mechanics, no additional damage done...just more health to have to deal with. That is not what NiM mode is about.

 

Which is why it should not be brought back.

Edited by psandak
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Simply put, the NiM modes of EV and KP were even more of a joke than the HM versions. The ONLY difference was more health for the bosses; no additional mechanics, no additional damage done...just more health to have to deal with. That is not what NiM mode is about.

 

Which is why it should not be brought back.

 

The first sentence you said seems a little hyperbole. Unless you were doing EV/KP NiM back in early 1.0 then yes, they were always easy. But since 2.0 on they haven't had the opportunity to be anything but a joke. I don't understand that frame of thought though. If the bosses were tweaked to have very tight DPS and Heal checks, why is it bad for it to be brought back? Or not have retooled them to that difficulty to begin with instead of removing them back in 4.0. There are plenty of NiM fights already that I think many could say that's not what NiM is about. Nefra is the prime example, Raptus, half of SnV, TFB Kephess, etc. The game needs content. It's content that already exists. It just needs a quick tweaking before being unarchived. In the end, even if it does end up a joke, why does it matter that it is called NiM and exists? How does it hurt the community at all? It just provides more content. And the precedent is already there that Difficulty Name =/= Actual Difficulty. The HM tier of raids is the best example of that right now, where there is seemingly 3 different tiers of HMs. So why not 2 different tiers of NiM. Ideally the DPS and Heals checks would be pretty dang hard to close that gap. But I can't see a justifiable reason for it to not be in the game still.

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I fully support this idea.

 

I think it’d be informative if a Dev could comment on the amount of effort that would be required to retool the old instances. It seems like the level sync system is already in place; it’d just be a matter of tuning the damage and health numbers which is something that seems to be done pretty frequently. But if it’s really as easy as it seems it should be, then I don’t see a good reason not to bring them back.

 

A couple of additional points I’d like to make:

 

- one of the hardest things about NiM raiding is getting over the hump from HM to NiM checks. Right now there aren’t really any good transitional operations; ToS/Rav have mechanics but not the correct tuning, GFTM mostly the same except more mechanics. But jumping from, say, Brontes HM to even Writhing Horror NiM is not easy. KP/EV could be a good place to have right checks but relatively few mechanics and would thus allow more people to get into NiM raiding

- the reason they were taken out of the game, to my understanding, was that they made gearing too easy. Well, that doesn’t really apply here since by the time you’re doing NiM operations the 246 gear they drop is pretty meaningless. Also, they could be made to drop fewer UCs so you don’t get as much gearing help from just grinding them

- Almost everyone I know would love to be able to get “The Infernal” and “The Unyielding” titles

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ev and kp in nightmare mode? an operation that changes nothing from hm except the higher hp of bosses?

 

me personally would prefer them to focus in new content not reusing/putting up live old assets - the operations dont change in nothing, except the hp part. if they were diferent, then yes i would agree, but just to have more hp - i dont think its interesting.

 

if its for achievemnts, well, i would also would like to have done conqueror of dread forest, but it was a one time thinggie.

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For the people who missed out on it when it was on tier, you missed nothing. As has been stated, if you just upped the HP and damage values of some bosses it'd be the same thing, and since the current HM versions have already been rebalanced to be on tier, who is to say they aren't as difficult as the old versions? If you could even rate it, since gear and abilities have all completely changed since then anyways.

 

Nah, this is a terrible idea, unless they want to go from the ground up and actually add mechanics for nightmare mode.

 

EDIT: It seems while there's like 10 yes's in this topic, its all people who never got to do it. Well, two responses. If you want to see what you missed, like I said, its nothing. There's literally no difference, and the balance of all ops is completely different now anyways. It plays exactly the same as its always played. If its for achievements, well that's a dumb reason because there's other missable achievements as well. I'd rather they delete the nim achievement anyways than waste time adding another mode to these ops that changes nothing.

Edited by wadecounty
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For the people who missed out on it when it was on tier, you missed nothing. As has been stated, if you just upped the HP and damage values of some bosses it'd be the same thing, and since the current HM versions have already been rebalanced to be on tier, who is to say they aren't as difficult as the old versions? If you could even rate it, since gear and abilities have all completely changed since then anyways.

 

Nah, this is a terrible idea, unless they want to go from the ground up and actually add mechanics for nightmare mode.

 

EDIT: It seems while there's like 10 yes's in this topic, its all people who never got to do it. Well, two responses. If you want to see what you missed, like I said, its nothing. There's literally no difference, and the balance of all ops is completely different now anyways. It plays exactly the same as its always played. If its for achievements, well that's a dumb reason because there's other missable achievements as well. I'd rather they delete the nim achievement anyways than waste time adding another mode to these ops that changes nothing.

 

But one thing is that everyone who didn’t do it before 4.0 are missing 9% of their ops completion. So they will never be able to get true 100% ops ever

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But one thing is that everyone who didn’t do it before 4.0 are missing 9% of their ops completion. So they will never be able to get true 100% ops ever

 

5char

 

If its for achievements, well that's a dumb reason because there's other missable achievements as well. I'd rather they delete the nim achievement anyways than waste time adding another mode to these ops that changes nothing.
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Well, it could become "entry-level for NIMH raiders". But still : They'd have to align everything to level 70.

 

Apart from that, a guild member and me we both noticed in the last week that in our memory, both Karagga and Chamber were easier in former times ... Now, with everything aligned to level 70, both OPs have become harder for actually fresh beginners in raiding. I mean, we wiped within the corridors of Karagga with lots of beginners among our team (at least half of us if not more), but i don't remember doing so before at le vel 60 and before.

 

Chamber went through fairly quick, but we also had fewer fresh beginners in our team.

 

However, we both had the feeling as if for Newbies even in story mode, everything had become harder, even with at least 230 gear. And some in our guild really insist on EVERYONE actually having no less than 136 gear at the begin of SM OPs. I mean, there is Bolster, but it doesn't seem to help Newbies really that well, because everything is at level 790 now.

 

Karagga & Chamber at NIMH level could become "entry-level" for NIMH raiders, but still ... Experienced ones would farm it. Some would even laugh at that, I guess.

 

A couple of additional points I’d like to make:

 

- one of the hardest things about NiM raiding is getting over the hump from HM to NiM checks. Right now there aren’t really any good transitional operations; ToS/Rav have mechanics but not the correct tuning, GFTM mostly the same except more mechanics. But jumping from, say, Brontes HM to even Writhing Horror NiM is not easy. KP/EV could be a good place to have right checks but relatively few mechanics and would thus allow more people to get into NiM raiding

 

I agree to that - as far as I can see it.

 

But one thing is that everyone who didn’t do it before 4.0 are missing 9% of their ops completion. So they will never be able to get true 100% ops ever

 

I don't believe that I'll EVER get cleared ALL Ops in every difficulty mode; I didn't do Conflict even in SM to this day. I only did it 3 or 4 times, but every time it was HM and one last NIMH run (of which I don't have the last boss entry).

So, even although I have those archived entries, I don't think I'll every get everything - and, well, that's just the way it is. I won't ever get a Rolls Royce, either.

Edited by AlrikFassbauer
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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

I support this idea. NiM community is already small. And the majority within this small community don't have patience for transitioning raiders (except very few guilds that have NiM training and prog squads). So who's gonna help new players learn this stuff?

 

With EV-KP, at least there used to be a stepping stone for transitioning raiders to practice their skills. Those two don't need remastering, all that's required is maybe some tighter enrage timers and mechanical tweaks that would test coordination skills (maybe shorten the Soa floor drop time, or add aberrations like those seen in Revan).

 

Schwarz put it well when he said ToS, Rav, and Gods don't serve well as transition raids. SV is at the easier end of NiM, but Warlords and Styrak are different from the rest of that raid.

 

I wouldn't know what kind of budget would be required to bring EV-KP back with some polishing up. But there's no content coming anytime soon and people are leaving the game because of lack of content. If you guys can bring EV-KP back, at least that'd motivate folks to renew their subs, take up their guns and lightsabers and learn that stuff on their own.

 

Plus the titles, Infernal and Unyielding, would be nice to have.

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NiM community is already small. And the majority within this small community don't have patience for transitioning raiders (except very few guilds that have NiM training and prog squads). So who's gonna help new players learn this stuff?

 

How I see it, this community was small right from the start, and it was never meant to be something else than a way for bragging abvout something 99,9999999999999999999 % of all players won't ever be able to reach.

 

Personally, I never saw NIMH as anything else than a test to become a member of a select elite gamers who'd got the right to brag about something special after that.

 

I never had the feeling as if getting new players was a big thing within this community. I rather believe the opposite : That it was meant to be small all of the time, and a closed circle.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So I've just now read through this (skimmed would be more accurate), and to me it seems the dissenting side offers nothing more than a "I'd rather them use the resources to create a new op instead of bringing an HM-mechanically similar NiM operation back."

 

So Imma keep it real with you chief: The resources required to bring EV/KP NiM back are far less than the resources required to create an operation. If you truly believe that scaling old operations up, as has been done plenty of times previously, would dramatically detract from the creation of a new operation, you're gonna have to seriously convince me to align with your beliefs.

 

I vote yes to everything Ayix said here. And I have absolutely no bias at all, and if I do it's certainly not attributable to the lack of 16m NiM KP cheevos in my legacy. That has nothing to do with this. At all. :cool:

Edited by BishopSMASH
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