Now you got me thinking... damn you As I am Sith and Sith have trouble to forgive ... a bit punishment must be. Putting beloved Theron in the same cell as Saresh for a week... how is that for punishment? Good or too harsh?

Well only my Jedi imprisoned Saresh and she is definitely the type to forgive Theron. As for my other characters, yea they all killed Saresh.

But I like that idea. Theron would like "NOOOOO! Kill me PLEASE!" as he is being dragged away.

I agree with the infiltration theory making the most sense, and I did notice many of the signs as well (such as him shooting out the window that you end up jumping out of).

Assuming one has faith in Bioware's writing in this case, the only problem with this theory is that Tyth described the traitor's motivation as one marked by pain, anger, and hope eroding. So either Tyth was lying or pain, anger and hope eroding is the reason he infiltrated The Order.

Or Theron's insane, out of character, one size fits all motivation is actually true.

My Sith Warrior and Jedi Consular area so different that it's almost comical. Everything he said to my Warrior made so much sense I could almost totally buy it (aside from the "So you just now noticed that I'm a Sith Lord?" element and the potential premise that he would help kill his own father to defend the Alliance Commander only to immediately try to kill them later anyway. But to a Jedi Consular that made basically every opposite decision, I don't think I was even able to follow his supposed explanation.

But he does seem like he's putting on an act when he's not in private.

I agree with the infiltration theory making the most sense, and I did notice many of the signs as well (such as him shooting out the window that you end up jumping out of).

 

Assuming one has faith in Bioware's writing in this case, the only problem with this theory is that Tyth described the traitor's motivation as one marked by pain, anger, and hope eroding. So either Tyth was lying or pain, anger and hope eroding is the reason he infiltraited

 

Or Theron's insane, out of character, one size fits all motivation is actually true.

 

My Sith Warrior and Jedi Consular area so different that it's almost comical. Everything he said to my Warrior made so much sense I could almost totally buy it (aside from the "So you just now noticed that I'm a Sith Lord?" element and the potential premise that he would help kill his own father to defend the Alliance Commander only to immediately try to kill them later anyway. But to a Jedi Consular that made basically every opposite decision, I don't think I was even able to follow his supposed explanation.

 

But he does seem like he's putting on an act when he's not in private.

Pain, anger, hope eroding...I am wondering if it's the real traitor/order that T might be infiltrating. The Scions said the Commander is destined to become a god. Is it possible someone is angry and in pain because they don't *want* that to happen? That of course would indicate it's someone from Zakuul because anyone who is Imp/Republic wouldn't care about that pantheon of gods.

Or...another theory might be that T is in pain, and doing what he is doing, because Satele is being harmed by this order. Or SHE has gone nuts and is running it. Lana mentions they have to track her down, so she's gone incommunicado again...and she doesn't respond to the Commander or send an email even after the Commander's message to T on the Holonet. If she's been captured, that would be a viable reason why T is in pain and hurting. Whatever faction you side with, they've also set up a Shan family feud and a lot of tension there.

Spoilers obviously

Spoilers obviously

 

 

Pain, anger, hope eroding, being close to the outlander everything Tyth says fits Theron, from the bits of info that can be put together since after KotET.

Just one glance at the middle section of any email variation from him shows that. He explains exactly why he's disillusioned with the Alliance, because people are rising up against it and the wars just aren't stopping.

There is, in my opinion, too many dots connecting now, (with uprising comments by him , the mail/s, Tyth's comments, his own dialogue about it etc) and I personally now think there's a far more truth in what he says in the email, and in his explanation rant, then I'd personally like but it's very interesting how subtly/almost missable this may have been set up. He's hurt, angry, tired of being let down by every organisation that claims to be working for peace (or not at all, depending on the Commander).

Interesting!

Interesting!

 

What just makes me wonder is what Charles said, and that we should trust Theron? Or was it trust something else?

I don't bother with any of bioware people's tweets, Yes I saw them but place no stock in them. Trust what, indeed. Far too vague and often didn't mean what people ran with them as in the past. So I'll go with "something else solely to hopefully not have people leave over the reveal" and be glad if I am incorrect.

edit: but yeah, things are starting to look a bit more cohesive about the whole thing after putting together more little bits actually said or mailed in-game, and a bit less guessing on hopes haha . As I always said, I find this particular story arc intriguing and interesting, I just dread how badly they might wrap it up. I hope it's not rush-rush story, since more can be explored here with all the new revelations, not just the traitor.

Spoilers obviously

 

 

Pain, anger, hope eroding, being close to the outlander everything Tyth says fits Theron, from the bits of info that can be put together since after KotET.

Just one glance at the middle section of any email variation from him shows that. He explains exactly why he's disillusioned with the Alliance - the middle alone https://i.imgur.com/OgWxIyd.png, because people are rising up against it and the wars just aren't stopping.

There is, in my opinion, too many dots connecting now, (with uprising comments by him , the mail/s, Tyth's comments, his own dialogue about it etc) and I personally now think there's a far more truth in what he says in the email, and in his explanation rant, then I'd personally like but it's very interesting how subtly/almost missable this may have been set up. He's hurt, angry, tired of being let down by every organisation that claims to be working for peace (or not at all, depending on the Commander).

But that still doesn't make sense.

But that still doesn't make sense.

He's disillusioned by constant war, so he instead ever mentioning his frustration, he is willing to betray his friends and to kill millions of people to bring down the galaxy's only effective Peacekeeping Force? Heck, the biggest war going on now is the ones HE caused!

 

I think there's not enough information to know either way, because we can all look at it differently and come to different conclusions. I'm in the double-agent camp just because of how things were set up with the *wink* *wink* ANYTHING to keep you safe comment, along with knowing his "Stupid Theron Does Stupid Stuff Without Thinking" history. I haven't played through any of the Uprisings (because I don't do group content), but from what I've read on here, his comments can say completely different things based on the alignment of the Commander. Then there's Tyth's comments...which again could be taken so so so many different ways. It's possible he wasn't talking about Theron at all. It's also possible Theron's "giant ball of angst" could be due to worrying about the safety of the person he loves in addition to the constant fighting. I'm totally of the belief that Theron is not a very healthy individual in the head (abandonment issues, codependent tendencies, etc) and I could absolutely see him doing something like this if he thought his SO was in danger, even to his own undoing.

 

If Theron genuinely does want to topple the Alliance to bring about peace, it simply does not make sense for him to allow the Commander to live...which we all saw on that train ride, that he clearly had no intention on the Commander dying. And, he also left the crystals behind, which paved the way for the Alliance to secure Iokath, which again, would make no sense if he wanted to undermine the Alliance. Those are things that BioWare most definitely wanted us to notice. And also, never in a million years would I ever believe that Theron would say (and mean) that millions dying is worth it to bring about peace. He is so not an "ends justify the means" guy. For all but the nastiest Commanders, nothing he says on that train makes any sort of sense, other than it being a hammed up show for listeners in.

 

Lastly, there's the game mechanics factors to look at. I don't think BioWare would make him into an enemy, taking away a potential m/m romance option (ok there's technically Koth, but I don't think he gets even a fraction of the love Theron gets), not to mention making female SW's (and there's TONS of female SW's) having to choose between him and Quinn literally 5min before the Umbara FP. If Theron was gone for good, that choice wouldn't have happened because there would be rioting in the streets. Yeah, players could potentially lose romance with Koth and Dorne due to choices they've made (and that sucks), BUT the difference with Theron is that there is no choice here. No matter what we do, he does this. I don't see BioWare taking away a romance (pretty much THE romance) after players have already had to choose him over their past romances and then laughing in our faces. Even when looking at other BioWare games, the only characters I can think of that we lost through no choice of our own was Thane and Jacob in ME3 and they didn't turn traitor, one died and the other was just a playah *ugh* Ok Solas...that one just remains to be seen with what happens in DA4). If Theron wasn't a romance at all, then I would more easily buy into the "he's not coming back" theories.

 

I dunno, like I said...I think we just don't have enough information to know anything for sure. It's all speculation at this point, especially since so much can appear disjointed due to the "one size fits all" story arc.

 

All of this! Add to it that his rantings on the train sounded more like the talking points of a radical group, and it becomes more and more obvious that he's on to something big and bad.

I'd have to agree with some of the recent posts and say that there truly isn't enough information to push for the "infiltration" theory or not.

I'd have to agree with some of the recent posts and say that there truly isn't enough information to push for the "infiltration" theory or not.

 

Leaving those adegan crystals behind is perhaps the best hint of Theron's infiltration (not counting lines for those who romanced him).At first it didn't raise any flags with me, but when Lana mentions that they'll help in securing Iokath, it got me thinking. But it is also entirely impossible that Theron means what he says. We know his character has suffered A LOT since SoR (let's not forget Lana getting him captured and tortured). So after all he's been through, I can see a mental breakdown type of deal that this new party (the Order) has monitored and thus taken advantage of. Not to mention that his betrayal can be seen as something that has been building up a long time for Dark Siders.

 

My ideal turnout? I'd ultimately enjoy seeing Theron's betrayal becoming just a ploy... for Light side characters.

And by that, I mean that, like the theory suggests, he has done all of this to get in good with the Order and will ultimately reveal himself to still be on our side (romance reunion!). However... what if you're dark side alignment actually made the betrayal legitimate? Taking the Eternal Throne; never helping the people of Zakuul; killing your companions. I could very easily see these actions pushing Theron over the edge, to the point where he sees the Commander as just another Arcann or Vaylin (especially if you went dictator).

 

In the Dark side case, although being sincere, I don't think Theron would be lost forever. Even if you were Dark,

but made some Lighter decisions in the Umbara Flashpoint (not threatening him, offering him a place back in the Alliance), then maybe that opens some doors. I don't know. The point is, I am really hopeful that we see this type of diversion between Light and Dark characters.

But then again...

 

It should be mentioned that it's entirely possible to play a Dark Side character and not be a total monster. I have a Dark 1-2 Nox with Theron and he has approved of almost every decision she's made...but she's Dark. And most definitely a Sith. Sith doesn't automatically equal evil. She didn't even want the throne because she believes in the concept of a ruling Council. Think of her being like Darth Marr and *everybody* respects Darth Marr.

 

Not to mention that the entire concept of basing game mechanics on alignment is inherently flawed when you can utterly and completely control it with the "declare yourself" toggle on the corner of the screen. Go too Dark? Oh, better toggle Light for a few quests, and so on and so forth. With that toggle, every quest returns Light/Dark points, and I've even noticed that some mob kills do too.

 

Lastly, depending on how you look at Theron's character, he can easily be considered "Dark" himself, or at least "Grey." He's got skeletons in his closet, and he's not beneath being ruthless when he needs to be. The additional media sheds a lot of light on his personality, and I highly recommend everybody read it. He's most definitely not a cuddly-wuddly cinnamon roll at heart, at least a lot of the time. We need to remember that it's not "black" and "white." There are a lot of shades in-between.

But then again...

 

 

Why would he be disillusioned about wars, when HE started the biggest war? remember, he sent the same message to all three groups: Empire, Republic and Alliance. Iokath is his fault.

You make an excellent point and I totally agree. When I said "Dark" I was mostly referring to the choices you might make that alienate Theron. Think of it like Koth. In the first 9 chapters of KOTFE, if you made two specific dark side choices, then he would refuse a romance talk. Now, apply that concept to Theron. If you make xxx amount of choices that he disapproved of (Never helping the people of Zakuul; Killing certain companions; declaring yourself a dictator) then his betrayal would be legit.

That would hardly be fair considering that at least with Koth you get a message that he will remember your cruelty, etc. so you sort of had an idea that he would turn on you. Especially when he tells you straight up that he can only take so much and that he wants to believe in you. You have an opportunity to make amends or just keep on going and Koth eventually leaves. Theron on the other hand may disapprove but I have never seen warning messages from him like I did with Koth. He has never even "greatly disapproved" my choices. On dark sided characters it would be tragically unfair to make it so black and white like that. My SI made mostly light side choices. In fact, she still has all her companions including Koth. The only time she chose dark was to rule as empress. Even when she meets with Theron before Iokath starts, she sends aide to Zakuul. She sided with Acina and stood by Theron's side telling him not to shoot his father that he is a better man than that. And yet for all that she gets called an oppressive tyrant. If they write the rest of this story out to screw dark side characters who romanced Theron that will be it for me. Not everything is all Light sided equals best, especially when Theron isn't even light sided all the time and has a dark side to him. It would be hypocritical of him to reject my DS character in that way.

That would hardly be fair considering that at least with Koth you get a message that he will remember your cruelty, etc. so you sort of had an idea that he would turn on you. Especially when he tells you straight up that he can only take so much and that he wants to believe in you. You have an opportunity to make amends or just keep on going and Koth eventually leaves. Theron on the other hand may disapprove but I have never seen warning messages from him like I did with Koth. He has never even "greatly disapproved" my choices. On dark sided characters it would be tragically unfair to make it so black and white like that. My SI made mostly light side choices. In fact, she still has all her companions including Koth. The only time she chose dark was to rule as empress. Even when she meets with Theron before Iokath starts, she sends aide to Zakuul. She sided with Acina and stood by Theron's side telling him not to shoot his father that he is a better man than that. And yet for all that she gets called an oppressive tyrant. If they write the rest of this story out to screw dark side characters who romanced Theron that will be it for me. Not everything is all Light sided equals best, especially when Theron isn't even light sided all the time and has a dark side to him. It would be hypocritical of him to reject my DS character in that way.

Totally agree, because I have a character who took the throne, but her first choice was to send aid. Unfortunately, I think that particular "tyrant" comment was subjected to the "one size fits all" generalization. Because on the flip-side, you could have taken the Peacekeeper role and taken the Dark option as your first decision.

And yes, thank you, someone else mentioning his dark side! He is not a Light character by any means. Does he have a good heart? Of course! But he's not the innocent cinnamon roll so many people make him out to be. He's an operative capable of going deep undercover...he's killed two members of the Dark Council, blown up multiple ships and stations (killing many people in the process), and laid waste to an Imperial installation on Ziost...and this is all before we even meet him. Folks forget that there are the people who operate behind the curtain...the ones who get their hands dirty...and Theron is one of them. You can't do that sort of job without having a bit of a dark side.

And then there's the misconception that "Republic = Light = Good" and "Empire = Dark = Bad." Not so much. Even Theron admits that they're not all that different in the end.

That would hardly be fair considering that at least with Koth you get a message that he will remember your cruelty, etc. so you sort of had an idea that he would turn on you. Especially when he tells you straight up that he can only take so much and that he wants to believe in you. You have an opportunity to make amends or just keep on going and Koth eventually leaves. Theron on the other hand may disapprove but I have never seen warning messages from him like I did with Koth. He has never even "greatly disapproved" my choices. On dark sided characters it would be tragically unfair to make it so black and white like that. My SI made mostly light side choices. In fact, she still has all her companions including Koth. The only time she chose dark was to rule as empress. Even when she meets with Theron before Iokath starts, she sends aide to Zakuul. She sided with Acina and stood by Theron's side telling him not to shoot his father that he is a better man than that. And yet for all that she gets called an oppressive tyrant. If they write the rest of this story out to screw dark side characters who romanced Theron that will be it for me. Not everything is all Light sided equals best, especially when Theron isn't even light sided all the time and has a dark side to him. It would be hypocritical of him to reject my DS character in that way.

I think its very much a super deep infiltration plan. I spent a good 5 minutes with my jaw dropped going 'what?!' at the betrayal. But then other things kept not feeling right.

 

I hate to say it but the voice acting wasn't that great to me. Theron sounds overly hostile in a way that seems obviously exaggerated. My consular, I just had a hard time believing her reactions. I think if they had slowed the dialogue down a bit it would have helped. Let the shock sort of be able to show.

 

But yeah, lets see:

* telling you what hes doing and essentially giving you the opportunity as well as pretty much telling you without actually saying it 'jump'.

 

* chasing him to the ship seems to be him leading you off planet to me

 

* leaving the shards which even Lana is confused by

 

* I agree I think this order was watching the whole time, thus he had to make it real. I don't think Lana nor Commander know.

 

* I went with the light side options because my character loves him. 2 things caught my attention at the end.

 

after giving her speech, it ends with "I love you Theron, come home." He looks at the holo sadly and turns it off. Then says, "I love you too...(with regret in his voice)...but I can't.' Just as he says that, the holo from the order guy saying that he has proven himself comes through.

 

lots of seemingly genuine 'I love yous' in this chapter which I loved. But its also interesting, if he hates you so much, he wouldn't be saying that, especially now that hes 'free of your influence'.

 

When he sends the mail- the damn subject is 'I love you.' He then goes to explain that he really can't explain, and he hopes that the commander will understand one day, but he can't return. Also he understands if you don't forgive him either. But he's loved you from the day he met you, and always will.

 

To me this cemented he's undercover. Someone who truly hated you would be mocking your stupidity. Hes essentially saying, 'I can't come back' repeatedly. Why? Because he found something much bigger than all of what you are facing, that he is the only insider on now. He has to do everything he can do figure out what is happening.

 

He also understands his role as a spy could go either way, you could never forgive him, or you will. He just hopes that one day you'll be able to understand what hes doing and why.

 

I really hope they pull this off well. I mean the man tag-teamed with a jedi master, and brought down the most dangerous weapon the imperials had. This is equivalent to Quinns shutting down a whole fleet by sneaking on the ship and disabling it. Freaking genius. I hope we get to see him pull something equally as epic, and get him back.

So if you love him but perhaps your characters personality is upset and puts the bounty on him you get a completely different letter. It read as a break up letter to me. That was my take on it. It is the same regardless if you are in a relationship or not, which I found disappointing. The writers could have had a different mail if a romanced person puts a bounty like "I know you don't understand my actions, commander, but given our relationship I had hoped I meant more to you than this". I think something along those lines would have been better than saying basically I knew I was right and I need to stop you at all costs.