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comparing sorcs and snipers


wwkingms

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let me start off by stating i love my sorc, and to a lesser degree my sage as well

i love casters, i played a warlock main in wow, and mage in rift

so obviously the only choice for me in swtor was the sorcerer

 

however there are other ranged bretheren in this game, snipers and mercs (and their respective mirrors)

to a certain degree this argue could be made by mercs as well but here goes..

 

Bioware obviously recognized that ranged classes need some tools for pvp survival... that is why they in fact gave them.. all.. to snipers, i will be comparing mostly the markmenship tree.

 

knockbacks:

snipers knockback is baseline a 2-5 second root, and can be spec'd to knockback further, if i am also correct it knocks back in a 360% radius rather than a cone like ours, also our knockback has NO baseline root (must be spec'd) and no option to increase the distance

 

cover vs mobility:

at first glance one would say sorcs have much more mobility than snipers, which is im part true but by choosing the sniper class you have chosen stationary dmg dealing primarily. however one key point is overlooked.. as a sorc.. you mobility is severely hindered in pvp most of the time, charges, roots and pulls often ruin most chances of escape and rubber-banding after a sprint is all too common. as a sniper why would u need mobility if you cant be charged or grappled in the first place?

 

force slow vs leg shot:

there is no comparison here, as a sorc advance class forc slow should immobilize without a doubt, its obvious ranged class need a root, thats why snipers got them.. we got a slow.. which usually only matches the current snare on ourselves.

 

dmg output:

with no exagerration i can confidently say sniper burst just about doubles that of a sorc. any of u whom have been free shot at by a sniper with no line of sight know just how ridiculous their burst is... ours is slow and unsteady, bioware understands that ranged classes are plagued by LOS therefor snipers were given a very hard hitting execute ability with immense range..... sorcs got nothing.

 

resource management:

sorc hybrids win this, however i will note that snipers have a ranged recource free attack, whereas when a sorc is out of resource we must turn masochistic

 

survival:

a.)i already mentioned the cover, and how sorcs are helpless but to be chain charged and pulled. but as well bioware understands ranged need some immunity to cc..... therefor snipers were giving entrench, spec'd to a 45 second cooldown... so every 45 seconds the sniper can be immune to ALL FORMS OF CC for 20 seconds.. wait a fkign second... so 20seconds out of every 45 seconds they can be immune to EVERYTHING? holy god

 

b.) both classes have a 4s stun with minimal range. BUT, snipers have a range aoe mezz BASELINE, compared to our single target mezz with a baseline activation time

 

c.) to a lesser extent let me add that snipers wear an armor grade above us and do have small defense and dmg reduction abilities available to them in their marks tree.

 

 

 

in conclusiou *** BW. you obviously recognize the need for BURST DMG, survivability, and cc for a ranged class, im just not quite sure why it was given all to snipers... which my sorc left in the dust eating 7k smashes while im rooted in place .

 

im not looking to become OP gods, however our dmg is very lackluster, at 960 bonus dmg i barely ever crit for 4k, we are the number one target due to our squishyness. our activation time abilities have NO PAYOFF... and we have no immunites of defenses against the hordes of fotm monkeys charging our way.

Edited by wwkingms
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Snipers, dpswise, are absolutely better than sorcs in every way- in fact, snipers are the only viable ranged DPS in this game. They do way more burst, have good CC, have great defensive mechanics, and have well defined roles they excel at in warzones.

 

But, above all- the lack of any other ranged dps that holds a candle to them, and how OP mara and juggs are both are what make snipers so strong- since snipers directly counter mara/juggs.

 

If mercs or sorcs were the two OP classes, or even sins and operatives were more common- snipers might not be so great since a mobile ranged DPS class would ignore most of the sniper's defensive ability, and stealthers can reduce the gap with ease.

 

Long as mara/juggs are so OP though- snipers will be pretty much the only DPS counter to them.

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Snipers, dpswise, are absolutely better than sorcs in every way- in fact, snipers are the only viable ranged DPS in this game. They do way more burst, have good CC, have great defensive mechanics, and have well defined roles they excel at in warzones.

 

But, above all- the lack of any other ranged dps that holds a candle to them, and how OP mara and juggs are both are what make snipers so strong- since snipers directly counter mara/juggs.

 

If mercs or sorcs were the two OP classes, or even sins and operatives were more common- snipers might not be so great since a mobile ranged DPS class would ignore most of the sniper's defensive ability, and stealthers can reduce the gap with ease.

 

Long as mara/juggs are so OP though- snipers will be pretty much the only DPS counter to them.

 

good point.

 

BUT

 

a sniper doesnt need his defenses vs a sorc.. although handy.. if it is a ranged dps race.. the sniper will win with about 50% hp left especially in consideration of a 5k execute ability

Edited by wwkingms
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good point.

 

BUT

 

a sniper doesnt need his defenses vs a sorc.. although handy.. if it is a ranged dps race.. the sniper will win with about 50% hp left especially in consideration of a 5k execute ability

 

This is not to mention a lack of ways for a the sorceror class to stop the sniper's damage. With the sniper's entrench and interrupt immunity the few abilities a sorcerer has to mitigate the damage taken don't work, LOS is the only option.

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This is not to mention a lack of ways for a the sorceror class to stop the sniper's damage. With the sniper's entrench and interrupt immunity the few abilities a sorcerer has to mitigate the damage taken don't work, LOS is the only option.

 

Yep not even a 30m stun anymore, leaves the resolve filling whirlwind your only option.

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good point.

 

BUT

 

a sniper doesnt need his defenses vs a sorc.. although handy.. if it is a ranged dps race.. the sniper will win with about 50% hp left especially in consideration of a 5k execute ability

 

Thing is, if there's LOS, a Madness Sorc/Balance Sage can troll a Sniper to extreme lenghts of frustration. But that requires time, of course, which you often don't have in warzones.

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Snipers, dpswise, are absolutely better than sorcs in every way- in fact, snipers are the only viable ranged DPS in this game. They do way more burst, have good CC, have great defensive mechanics, and have well defined roles they excel at in warzones.

 

But, above all- the lack of any other ranged dps that holds a candle to them, and how OP mara and juggs are both are what make snipers so strong- since snipers directly counter mara/juggs.

 

If mercs or sorcs were the two OP classes, or even sins and operatives were more common- snipers might not be so great since a mobile ranged DPS class would ignore most of the sniper's defensive ability, and stealthers can reduce the gap with ease.

 

Long as mara/juggs are so OP though- snipers will be pretty much the only DPS counter to them.

 

I fully agree with everything in this post and feel it shows a really good understanding of the game.

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Don't forget the utility of Plasma Probe for Node denial, the extreme damage of Orbital Strike, the group utility of Balistic Shield, the survivability increase from Shield Probe and Evasion, and last but not least the free resources of Adrenaline Probe.

 

In fact while in the Healing tree Sorcerers can use spec points so that they only use 11% and don't lower their regeration at all in order to get a 8% resource return. Snipers get a free 50% of their energy every 2 mins baseline and up to every minute with spec points. To start a fight you can even use it twice in a row for a free 100% energy, you just have to wait a whole minute to do that again. Actually with spec points Snipers can actually GAIN 6% of their total health in order to get 50% resources. Without spec points they don't get the health back. But without spec points Sorc's give up 15%!?! of their total health in order to get 8% of their resources.

 

Sorcerers were not designed to be limited by their resources unlike every other class. But in the infinite wisdom of Bioware they also decided to punish Sorcerers more than any other class if they did run out. Every step of the process they add 2 and 2 and kept coming up with 5. There isn't one aspect of the way they put the sorcerer class together that actually makes any sense.

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I fully agree with everything in this post and feel it shows a really good understanding of the game.

 

yes but snipers not only counter juggs and mara's

 

they also counter mercs and sorcs, and pt's

 

they can be very strong against stealth classes as well

 

snipers are very overlooked but a strong counter to anything

 

anytime you have great burst, great defensive mechanics and an immunity to all cc ability on such short cooldown you can beat anything

 

i dont feel sorcs need to be able to smoke anything.. i feel our biggest counter are powertechs.. i do feel though our output doesnt justify how squishy we are

 

we either need more defense or more offense

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Lightning tree is in such poor form I have 967 dmg With buff and I do as much dmg as my sniper in battle master gear still. Ever try having a 35m fight against a sniper ? I just get raped on my tk sage I put on alacrity boost and put up their entrench and it's a dps war u can never win
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Not going to lie, Sorcerer is very, very poor. Though, for some reason I'm deeply in love with the class. I think it's maybe somewhere deep in the back of my mind I get the impression that they MUST be getting buffed with the upcoming expansion. As of right now, Sorcs (and mirror) are like the only class where you actually have to run to survive (EDIT: Mercs aswell maybe).

 

Sure Snipers are a pure DPS class and deserve to have more DPS than Sorcs, I can completely agree with that, but that should be by a reasonable margin. The ONLY way for a Sorc to beat a sniper is through LOS if you're lucky enough, or if they decide to lay down and willingly die / completely ignore you.

 

As I said, I'll continue to play my Sorc in hoping that they get a decent buff with the expansion.

 

EDIT: Sorcs really need their DPS abilitys altered, currently they are very boring to play. Loads of cast times, constant spamming of same ability is very dull.

 

EDIT: A Sniper can counter just about any class given they get an Entrench up at the right time. I currently have a 41 Sniper and can 1v1 just about everyone even from level 30 onwards (yes I know pre50 pvp is a bad example but it's all I have). They just get kind of boring being pure DPS always.

Edited by Jayshames
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Not going to lie, Sorcerer is very, very poor. Though, for some reason I'm deeply in love with the class. I think it's maybe somewhere deep in the back of my mind I get the impression that they MUST be getting buffed with the upcoming expansion. As of right now, Sorcs (and mirror) are like the only class where you actually have to run to survive (EDIT: Mercs aswell maybe).

 

Sure Snipers are a pure DPS class and deserve to have more DPS than Sorcs, I can completely agree with that, but that should be by a reasonable margin. The ONLY way for a Sorc to beat a sniper is through LOS if you're lucky enough, or if they decide to lay down and willingly die / completely ignore you.

 

As I said, I'll continue to play my Sorc in hoping that they get a decent buff with the expansion.

 

EDIT: Sorcs really need their DPS abilitys altered, currently they are very boring to play. Loads of cast times, constant spamming of same ability is very dull.

 

EDIT: A Sniper can counter just about any class given they get an Entrench up at the right time. I currently have a 41 Sniper and can 1v1 just about everyone even from level 30 onwards (yes I know pre50 pvp is a bad example but it's all I have). They just get kind of boring being pure DPS always.

 

entrench is a ridiculously short cooldown, especially spec'd

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I currently roll a near pure MM tree spec'd sniper on Jung-Ma (Ettrigan 31/10/0) and have been running with said sniper since pre-release. I can tell you that they have had 2 tree shifts since then and have gotten quite a bit stronger since launch because of all of the nerfs the other classes have had. Ever hear of people begging for a Sniper nerf? Not often. Ever hear of a Jugg or BH nerf? Rhetorical question there. I don't PvP much but I can say that in PvE Snipers are beast. Compared to a Sorc (no offense here) there is really no comparison. Heck, with Ballsitic Dampers, the personal shield probe, and the Ballistic shield down; I can literally tank any champion for a good 5-10 seconds without heals.

 

From the little PvP I have done, I can say that a Sniper is great.... Until you get knocked out of cover and cc'd.... Then it sucks because you literally have like 5 seconds tops to watch your health drain and then die.

 

I'm not calling for a nerf of Snipers in any way but I do think, in all fairness, that Sorcs should get a few more utilities to better handle such things. But of course you could just roll a Sniper and then this post would be obsolete...:rak_03:

Edited by LHRFreak
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I currently roll a near pure MM tree spec'd sniper on Jung-Ma (Ettrigan 31/10/0) and have been running with said sniper since pre-release. I can tell you that they have had 2 tree shifts since then and have gotten quite a bit stronger since launch because of all of the nerfs the other classes have had. Ever hear of people begging for a Sniper nerf? Not often. Ever hear of a Jugg or BH nerf? Rhetorical question there. I don't PvP much but I can say that in PvE Snipers are beast. Compared to a Sorc (no offense here) there is really no comparison. Heck, with Ballsitic Dampers, the personal shield probe, and the Ballistic shield down; I can literally tank any champion for a good 5-10 seconds without heals.

 

From the little PvP I have done, I can say that a Sniper is great.... Until you get knocked out of cover and cc'd.... Then it sucks because you literally have like 5 seconds tops to watch your health drain and then die.

 

I'm not calling for a nerf of Snipers in any way but I do think, in all fairness, that Sorcs should get a few more utilities to better handle such things. But of course you could just roll a Sniper and then this post would be obsolete...:rak_03:

 

i dont mind our squishyness, id like to be a true glass cannon, BW can save their defensive cooldowns if theyd just give us some harder hitting abilities

 

like shock, which is a joke, lightning strike is a joke, affliction and creeping terror are weak dots, thundering blast is weak

 

however, "cloud mind" our pve threat reducer is a perfect candidate to add a little defensive cooldown too for pvp

 

maybe make it like WOW's hunters smoke screen, if i cloud mind someone they cannot target me for 4 seconds

Edited by wwkingms
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I currently roll a near pure MM tree spec'd sniper on Jung-Ma (Ettrigan 31/10/0) and have been running with said sniper since pre-release. I can tell you that they have had 2 tree shifts since then and have gotten quite a bit stronger since launch because of all of the nerfs the other classes have had. Ever hear of people begging for a Sniper nerf? Not often. Ever hear of a Jugg or BH nerf? Rhetorical question there. I don't PvP much but I can say that in PvE Snipers are beast. Compared to a Sorc (no offense here) there is really no comparison. Heck, with Ballsitic Dampers, the personal shield probe, and the Ballistic shield down; I can literally tank any champion for a good 5-10 seconds without heals.

 

From the little PvP I have done, I can say that a Sniper is great.... Until you get knocked out of cover and cc'd.... Then it sucks because you literally have like 5 seconds tops to watch your health drain and then die.

 

I'm not calling for a nerf of Snipers in any way but I do think, in all fairness, that Sorcs should get a few more utilities to better handle such things. But of course you could just roll a Sniper and then this post would be obsolete...:rak_03:

 

I think Snipers are one of the only Balanced classes, there's just several classes that need to be buffed, if we keep nerfing classes, eventually we're all going to be doing a 10th of the damage/healing etc.

 

Fair enough, snipers should be doing more damage than the lieks of Merc/Sorc/Operative since it's a pure DPS class. What I don't understand is.. why give a class a healing tree and 2 DPS trees if the only thing they can do effectively is heal, just give them 3 heal trees or atleast something they are actually capable of pulling off.

 

EDIT: yes I don't mind being all that squishy as a sorc, but in return i'd atleast expect some hard hitters or something that counters the fact that I'm nearly useless. Either DPS tree, if a sorc gets interrupted their damage is practically kaput. There's no other class where your main damage comes from spamming the same ability over and over and over and over and over and over (you get the point) again.

 

Fingers crossed for a buff with expansion.

Edited by Jayshames
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I think Snipers are one of the only Balanced classes, there's just several classes that need to be buffed, if we keep nerfing classes, eventually we're all going to be doing a 10th of the damage/healing etc.

 

Fair enough, snipers should be doing more damage than the lieks of Merc/Sorc/Operative since it's a pure DPS class. What I don't understand is.. why give a class a healing tree and 2 DPS trees if the only thing they can do effectively is heal, just give them 3 heal trees or atleast something they are actually capable of pulling off.

 

EDIT: yes I don't mind being all that squishy as a sorc, but in return i'd atleast expect some hard hitters or something that counters the fact that I'm nearly useless. Either DPS tree, if a sorc gets interrupted their damage is practically kaput. There's no other class where your main damage comes from spamming the same ability over and over and over and over and over and over (you get the point) again.

 

Fingers crossed for a buff with expansion.

 

even the lowly merc/commando class can crit and get bigger single target numbers though if left to free cast

grav round/traver spammed at 3k each and the finisher ability ii forget them name crits for 5k

 

we really have the most pathetic single target dmg

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even the lowly merc/commando class can crit and get bigger single target numbers though if left to free cast

grav round/traver spammed at 3k each and the finisher ability ii forget them name crits for 5k

 

we really have the most pathetic single target dmg

 

Yeah its true, our single target damage is shameful. While it is possible to set up good burst in lightning it is still lacking compared to easier more efficient burst other classes have. If sustained AOE was important in this game we would be one of the best, sadly it is not and so we fit no real purpose in a group.

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Sages may not have a generic ability like legshot, but my sniper cant friendly pull people either. He cant convieniently LoS and heal himself for a few 1000 hp. He cant remove DoT's either, making him extremely weak exactly agianst Madness Sorcs so I find it a little ironic people are complain about that 1 vs 1 matchup, cause a duel between a good madness sorc and a good sniper regardless of spec is always gonna favor the sorc who playes patiently and LoS.

 

Madness sorcs dont have burst, but in a wz will achieve higher dps given the same circumstances as a sniper. How many times have you seen a sniper go +1k dps? I know quite a few sorcs on ToFN who has, and do so reguarly.

Its a different kind of dmg yes, but the pressure it applies on enemy healers is pretty intense.

 

And yes, I agree Lightning tree is useless for everythinhgexcept stun bubbles for hybrid healer.

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The strongest rated setups on ToFN run dps sages and sorcs every day. Sorry man, but its very viable for rated but ill grant it requires better team play then just bringing along an extra pyro.

 

as I also said in my post which you obviously didnt reat, i acknowledge that you cant compare sorc and sniper numbers. In my opinion the DoT's from a madness sorc is a source to constant pressure on enemy healers.

 

And please stop with the personal attack, i wasnt being rude or anything.

Edited by ZipZep
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The strongest rated setups on ToFN run dps sages and sorcs every day. Sorry man, but its very viable for rated but ill grant it requires better team play then just bringing along an extra pyro.

 

as I also said in my post which you obviously didnt reat, i acknowledge that you cant compare sorc and sniper numbers. In my opinion the DoT's from a madness sorc is a source to constant pressure on enemy healers.

 

And please stop with the personal attack, i wasnt being rude or anything.

 

madness can do some single target pressure but it lacks force management, its lacks knockback snare (which should be baseline imo LIKE snipers) it lacks force effusion.

 

the sorc lightning tree should have competative numbers to snipers, shock should be buffed int he lightning tree to crit about 4.5k and thundering blast could be changed to an execute type ability.. regardless of what they do its a tree that needs to hard cast abilities and yet still does very little dmg with no defense mechanics that compare to snipers (aside from a handy bubble stun)

 

i like the suggestion ive heard that parasitism should be changed to restore force

 

at first glance sorcs have a big resource pool... however say a 7/3/31 madness sorc, only has 500 force.. an ability like shock costs 45 force, force lightning costs 100 etc... sorcs have the slowest resource regen and no REAL resource free attack

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I understand that sorcerers are frustrated, but they should also be reasonable in their demands.

 

First of all, compared to sorcs we have never been a FOTM OP class. Our weakness are well established so that many classes can exploit that. The warzone maps layout is designed in such a way that no sniper can have 360 degree unobstructed field of view 35m range from him. In any scenario we have fo deal with enemies that can completely negate our damage by simply walking behind a rock.

 

If you are at full HP, rooting then explsive probe + ambush + ft will never kill you single handedly. So dont bring roots as the ultimate hard counter to your LoSing.

 

Our cover pulse is different from yours for many reasons: We need to be in cover, we cannot turn in any direction while in cover, so conal would be stupid. We have a baseline root, because we have no tools to disengage from a battle. We are there until we die or we kill. Our cover pulse is on 30min CD compared to your ridiculously low 20s CD. Compared to you we have no damage component at all, while you can use it to knock stealthers out of stealth.

 

People that played beta said that snipers had no interrupt immunity, which made the class a complete joke incapable to do crap.

 

Since you can negate our damage by LoSing us, why should you be able to win in a straight direct fight? What point would be to play a sniper if they didnt have a specific field where they would excel at? We have been given specific tools to win DPS race scenarios. This is our strong point. Entrench, burst those are all necessary components.

 

Healers AC will never ever get an execution ability. It is balanced. Since healers have the stats as good as DPSers, an execution ability will be way too OP for them. Imagine you can be a full healer and be able to fire 5000 damage executes. This would be way too much for a healer specced. Sorry but executes dont belong to a baseline abilities of healer AC.

 

Please stop saying how force speed is useless. More balls have been scored with force speed than have been stopped by legshots. Its an incredibly useful ability, dont try to make it look like force speed is a liability.

 

There are things that should be improved foR DPS sorcerers (healer sorcs deserve nothing), but these things should certainly not be changed for DPS sorcs for the sake of balance:

  1. No root immunity or root cleansing. This is your counter and you have to master dealing with it. Same as we have to deal with stealthers.
  2. No burst for madness. You can have mobility, burst, range, pick only 2.
  3. No baseline execution ability. The only possible place for it can be very high in lightning tree.
  4. No baseline root on overload. Its in a perfect place and it needs to stay there. Madness doesnt need extra root.

 

Now come up with a list of changes for dps sorcs that are not listed above.

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