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Looking for feedback on aggregated Strike suggestions, and big thread is too crowded

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Looking for feedback on aggregated Strike suggestions, and big thread is too crowded

Enurrsha's Avatar


Enurrsha
06.01.2015 , 12:28 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by tommmsunb View Post
I agree on all points but not exactly on giving pikes rocket pods, I actually think they should get double damage rocket pods if they get them due to the nature of how they need to be deadcenter-ish to hit and how not very maneuverable the pike is.

I completely agree with Nemarus's list of changes, as well as this bit from Tomm. A few other ideas popped into my head as well, some I've probably mentioned before & some that others probably did, but some of this might be "new". These changes would be chassis-specific, so the buffs for T1 would not apply to T2/T3 and vice versa.

T1
since it is the only ship that has access to ion gun, make ion gun "free"/"unlimited" - no energy cost at all, thus saving the blaster power pool for the HLCs (or BLCs if those are added), access to ALL blaster types including BLCs

T2
double capacity for ALL missile types, significant reduction in lock, cool down, & reload times (~50% sounds good) of all missle types, access to all missle types including pods

T3
no new ideas here, but would really like access to HLCs maybe BLCs too, in addition to other general strike buffs
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theaspie's Avatar


theaspie
06.01.2015 , 12:31 PM | #12
As one of the few strike aces on the Progenitor server, and perhaps the only one to specialize in the Pike, this list of concepts gets my full thumbs up.

My imagining of a NewGSF domination match goes something like this:

One or two scouts, perhaps the classic battlescout, still deadly as ever, streak towards points, attempting to capture them for their team. Behind them, a bomber follows, perhaps heading for a point that is easily secured by mines or drones. A lone gunship takes up a station from which it can dominate a 30km sphere between two points.

The scouts suddenly meet, and clash, the modern equivalent of light horse as they duel, each trying to outmaneuver the other. Then the Strike Fighters arrive, guns blazing. One scout gets lucky, and manages to wriggle free of the ensuring brawl, and sneak off to be repaired by a drone. The other is caught between the two warring walls, and torn apart in a few heartbeats, it's lack of armour and shielding proving no match for the heavy hitters.

Strike fighters too begin to explode, beaten down by the massive crush of firepower.

Two aces pinwheel clear of the wall, locked in mortal combat, each striving for those fractions of a degree, for fifty or sixty metres more that will prove decisive. The duel lasts for several furious minutes, before finally, one fighter dies, after a heartbeat of inattention.

The scouts continue to fight, dashing in with lasers and rockets, offering their own brand of rapid death, but no longer able to duel strike fighters as they once did. Some pilots succumb to the sudden attacks from behind, while others survive and attack, the speed and maneuver differential ultimately bringing their guns onto their fleeter attackers, before hammering them apart.

A gunship takes his eye off of the map for a moment too long, too focused on the bomber orbiting an enclosed point, and suddenly is fighting for his life, slower, and less maneuverable, he succumbs to the strike fighter on his tail within twenty seconds, even doing all he can.

Ultimately, the match is won. Loss rates were as high and low as they always were, but the strike fighters are equally represented for the first time. The scouts have done well, their quick attacks accounting for a number of all types of craft, but their losses represent them equally as well.

This is what GSF should be about. Duels, brawls and melees, with all classes represented in every match, and each performing well against all targets.

Under these suggestions, strikes will be the brawlers and workhorses, still as vulnerable, but with teeth even the best scout must beware of.

MaximilianPower's Avatar


MaximilianPower
06.01.2015 , 01:04 PM | #13
At the risk of cluttering up this thread too - I have to wonder what types of changes are actually feasible. I think we largely agree that entirely new systems/components are probably outside the scope of the kind of fix Alex is looking for. But maybe switching components around is too tall an order as well. Like, swapping the Star Guard's charged plating for feedback...what are the ramifications behind the scenes? Anyone with req in the plating tree needs to have that refunded (or do they automatically receive upgraded feedback?). Adding missiles to an existing SF template (i.e. interdiction to the Pike) could be trickier than we might assume. Maybe there simply aren't quick/easy ways to do these things.

Obviously I have no idea, and I'm just speculating, but we do know that dev time is (extremely) limited. Alex & the devs are the only folks who can tell us for sure, but maybe it's safer to operate under the assumption that ultimately, numbers tweaks will be all they'll have time for, along the lines of suggestions 1-4. If that's the case, then we should focus our collective attention on refining those ideas. Though the ones above sound pretty solid to me.

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Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
06.01.2015 , 01:25 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by SWCNT View Post
Assuming the middle ground with your changes (35% range boost, 50% damage boost, and 15% acc boost) HLC's will look like this:
Range = [776, 4657, 9115] (using range capacitor)
Accuracy = [126, 121, 116] (using pinpointing)
DPS vs Shields = [1182, 1059, 993]
DPS vs Hull = [ 1277, 1143, 1071]

Just imagine a target 9k away and you pop WM and have 136% accuracy and no charge time on a laser. You're right it would make a strike something another player could not ignore. Are the BLC's going to be more powerful than on a scout due to the umbrella buff to all strike weapons you're proposing? Or will the BLC's be exempt from the buff? On top of the above suggestions, there's the secondary weapon buffs, which would make the strike even more dangerous. Do you think strikes are really that underpowered? I think the suggestions are good, but your values are too high and they go pass the point of buffing. Also why would a T1 pilot ever pick quad and BLC? Quads don't have the range, armor ignore, accuracy, or shield piercing of HLC and they have higher power draw than HLC. I don't see those two weapons being favored by many even if quads have slightly higher DPS. BLC and Ions maybe, it would definitely be cool to try.

I don't think you can just "buff the strikes" and only change these values for strikes. People already complain about the learning curve and this will make it worse. Smaller changes to the weapon component tiers makes the material easier, doesn't risk tipping the scale too far, and doesn't involve having a messy obfuscated "buff" do deal with strikes.
Maybe #2-4, when combined, are too high. They should definitely be tuned.

But I feel like Strikes can really be overbuffed without much danger. A Scout will ALWAYS be able to flank and get behind one. A Gunship will always be able to cripple or kill one from 15km out. A Bomber will always be able to use cover and mines and drones to slow and snare and damage a Strike in a protracted chase around an obstacle. At the end of the day, there is still always a way to beat the Strike, regardless of how fearsome its weapons are. It can't shoot behind itself, it can't shoot at something 15km away, and it cannot shoot through walls. For those reasons, the other ships will always have a way to counter it.

Will we see fewer ships trying to joust Stikes? Yes, and we totally should. Strikes should always have been the best jousters. That means they need to beat a Scout with Quads/Pods and TT/Wingman. That's a lot of DPS to beat.

Will more people start using heavier shield components, like S2E, Directional and Overcharge (and maybe even Fortress?!) instead of DF, so that they have time to react to a Strike bearing down on them? I hope so!

Distortion Field will remain strong because Evasion. But using it will come with more risk. If your Evasion fails, some Strike may drive a couple shots of HLC into your hull.

Just like pilots have to have situational awareness about Gunships, so will they need to have awareness about Strikes.

Also, keep in mind that Star Guards and Pikes have no access to Dampening Sensors, so you will always have a chance to see them coming before they can shoot you.

Right now, no one says "oh crap!" when they see a Strike targeting them. That needs to change, and I don't think it does without a pretty substantial buff to damage.

And honestly... If the buffs go too far, and the best premade is always 4 Strikes... I just don't see that happening. Not against experienced pilots.

But if every non-ace ends up in a Strike, I think that would be fine and fun.
Shayd / Callem / RK-4X / "Trynt" - Leader of <Eclipse Squadron>, The Ebon Hawk
http://EclipseSquadron.enjin.com Imperial GSF-focused guild

"Serve the Emperor above all others."

ALaggyGrunt's Avatar


ALaggyGrunt
06.01.2015 , 02:25 PM | #15
BLC are just broken-they do everything.

If BLC swaps talent trees with LLC, the two guns become a lot harder to choose from: LLC for charged plating/turret bashing (or shield penetration), BLC for shooting at stuff with evasion. It wouldn't hurt if LLC also picked up some 50% armor penetration totally stock, so it wasn't a binary useful/fail choice.

If a T1 strike had to choose between both of those weapons (and a lot of others-MLC/HLC/quads/ions/etc), that wouldn't be the only build, and scouts would have to mix it up too.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
06.01.2015 , 02:54 PM | #16
Ok going to say this, because I see these suggestions every where. I HATE suggestions that add damage or range or something as a Chasis Adjustment. If some one has a component on EVERY OTHER SHIP that component does the same through out every Chasis. Quads on EVERYTHING works the same way. So having Strikes be the only ship different in that respect to me is BAD.

If its a damage problem, then its a component problem fix the components that makes damage bad. If its a Range problem then either A its a component problem or B its an engine efficiency problem, fix those. If its an Accuracy problem... its a component problem fix the components.

Be it to strong defense or to strong offense. If it has to do with Accuracy or damage its a component problem. If it has to do with Range, its probably a mobility problem. If it has to do with Survival it could be either a component or a chasis Problem. But giving passive accuracy or damage or range to a chasis is BAD design.

Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
06.01.2015 , 03:19 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
Ok going to say this, because I see these suggestions every where. I HATE suggestions that add damage or range or something as a Chasis Adjustment. If some one has a component on EVERY OTHER SHIP that component does the same through out every Chasis. Quads on EVERYTHING works the same way. So having Strikes be the only ship different in that respect to me is BAD.

If its a damage problem, then its a component problem fix the components that makes damage bad. If its a Range problem then either A its a component problem or B its an engine efficiency problem, fix those. If its an Accuracy problem... its a component problem fix the components.

Be it to strong defense or to strong offense. If it has to do with Accuracy or damage its a component problem. If it has to do with Range, its probably a mobility problem. If it has to do with Survival it could be either a component or a chasis Problem. But giving passive accuracy or damage or range to a chasis is BAD design.


Then it is impossible to balance Strikes--because Strikes do not have any unique components except Ion Cannon, Repair Probes, and Remote Slicing. What's worse, most of the component combination the Strike can do (which might produce some unique result) is already possible on the Sledgehammer, which comes standard with a super useful mine or drone and super-mobile Power Dive.

Buff Rapids or LLC's? You've buffed half the game, including all the Scouts.

Buff Quads? Yay the Sting is even better.

Buff Clusters? More love for the Sting, and the Condor and Sledgehammer thank you for your support.

Buff Ion Missile? "This Spearpoint is now the ultimate power in the universe."

Buff EMP Missile? Yay Spearpoint again--and Condor too!

Buff HLC's, Proton Torpedoes, or Concussion Missiles? Yes that will help Strikes, but it also helps the Sledgehammer. And the Sledgehammer still threatens to be the better choice, due to mine/drone and Power Dive (not to mention more overall health points).

The only thing unique about the Strike chassis is that it's called "Strike". Its shield and hull are barely better than those on Gunships, it has the same engine efficiency as Gunships and Bombers, and it still turns much slower than a Scout. And apart from the three components above, all of its components can be found on other ships, often to be combined with unique class-specific components like mines, drones, railguns, BLC's, and Rocket Pods.

There is no way to buff Strikes through buffing individual components. Not without ripping those components off half the ships in the game. That probably is the best course, but it's too late for that now and--I suspect--beyond the scope of changes BioWare is willing to do.

Yes, the proposed "chassis fixes" are bad design, but in this case two wrongs are needed to make a right. Giving so many Strike-themed components away to Bombers and Gunships and Scouts was the original sin. That can't be undone now.
Shayd / Callem / RK-4X / "Trynt" - Leader of <Eclipse Squadron>, The Ebon Hawk
http://EclipseSquadron.enjin.com Imperial GSF-focused guild

"Serve the Emperor above all others."

ALaggyGrunt's Avatar


ALaggyGrunt
06.01.2015 , 03:21 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
Ok going to say this, because I see these suggestions every where. I HATE suggestions that add damage or range or something as a Chasis Adjustment. If some one has a component on EVERY OTHER SHIP that component does the same through out every Chasis. Quads on EVERYTHING works the same way. So having Strikes be the only ship different in that respect to me is BAD.

If its a damage problem, then its a component problem fix the components that makes damage bad. If its a Range problem then either A its a component problem or B its an engine efficiency problem, fix those. If its an Accuracy problem... its a component problem fix the components.

Be it to strong defense or to strong offense. If it has to do with Accuracy or damage its a component problem. If it has to do with Range, its probably a mobility problem. If it has to do with Survival it could be either a component or a chasis Problem. But giving passive accuracy or damage or range to a chasis is BAD design.
I would agree, except every gun you can put on a strike works massively better when paired with TT/BO. Buff quads and rapids, and it won't matter: scouts will still be able to use these guns a lot better because of accuracy and/or damage cooldowns (TT/BO) and the ability to dictate range. If we buff just these guns, scouts will be able to melt things even faster unless we also nerf TT/BO.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
06.01.2015 , 04:10 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by ALaggyGrunt View Post
I would agree, except every gun you can put on a strike works massively better when paired with TT/BO. Buff quads and rapids, and it won't matter: scouts will still be able to use these guns a lot better because of accuracy and/or damage cooldowns (TT/BO) and the ability to dictate range. If we buff just these guns, scouts will be able to melt things even faster unless we also nerf TT/BO.
If the strike is able to dictate range just as well (Engine efficiency buff on chasis, it is a chasis buff but such a thing exists in game) and the damage on those weapons worked BEST against scouts, it doesnt matter that scouts can take it because unlike the strike they actually have to give something up for it... burst lasers which are good on other ships that have armor that if they took lights or rapids instead woulnt match up against (look at bombers or... wouldnt oyu know it... charged plating STRIKES)

havokhead's Avatar


havokhead
06.01.2015 , 04:38 PM | #20
T1 should have BLCs 100% agree!! Right now the 2 biggest threats to strikes are sniping gunships and in-close scouts. The first should be a threat but the latter should only be a threat if attacking from flanks or rear, a strike fighter should be out-maneuvered by a scout but never out-gunned, that's ridiculous!! As it is now, scouts just fly straight toward a strike fighter, pop distortion field and cackle as they hit burst lasers.

I also agree 100% that T1 Strikes should get Feedback Shield and I'd even take it a step further and say Feedback should get a missile break. A lot more pilots would grab feedback if it had a missile break, this would also help T2 gunships along the way and maybe more pilots would enjoy the T2 gunship then. Feedback would be the mirror to distortion field then, disto is super defensive with evasion & missile break but feedback would be more offensive with a missile break.

Also, scrap the capacitor components on T1 Strikes and give it armour components. The added evasion from lightweight armour wouldn't hurt and charged plating might be worthwhile if you could grab damage reduction.
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