Ouch.

 

I don't get how someone misses the quest that leads to by the nose to the free Tionese gear. What did he say when you asked him about the gear?

Actually, now I wonder how you managed to not hit enrage on boss fights. Was the other dps carrying the fights? Or did you have to dps on the side as well?

As OP said, a sin in DG gear. He doesn't need to guard anything esp in a FP. They have so much aoe a KB and a pull. I can't think of one pull in the game where a sin cant round up every mob. TBH on my sin i try to go thru FP's without using taunt's never mind a guard.

Agree. As a DPS, i don't need a guard unless i earn it:cool:

... How many percents of HP is ripped of Boss's body by tank usually?

I asked because he mentioned both the tank and one dps was in leveling 40s gear.

There are two types of guard beggars: (1) those who are pathetically undergeared, have no idea what their job is, or how to do it, and blame everyone else for their fail; and (2) those who are stupidly overgeared and think they're god's gift to the PUG.

DPS that have no gear and no skill don't need guard, if they're shooting what they're supposed to, because they have no hope of pulling off a competent tank ever. DPS that run in before the tank, pull adds, shoot CC, and have no idea what their aggro dump ability is even called are not going to be saved by guard. Those who know their job and how to do it, and who are geared enough to actually pull off a target that a tank means to hold aggro on, do not need guard to take whatever hits they get.

So if the first words out of your mouth are "guard me," then that just tells me that you suck, or you're trying to pimp strut your roxxor stats. That means you don't need it, or you don't deserve it. Either way, you're not getting it.

I run a PT Pyro that is half DG, half campaign, and is optimized.

Since I do not have a threat dump, I always ask for guard at the start of the FP if the tank appears to be not as geared equally.

I always feel like a jerk asking for it, but I know if I don't get it, I'll pull off the tank. Like I said though, if the tank is geared, I won't ask. But I've been told numerous times by tanks that they want the guard on the healer. Oh well.

I run a PT Pyro that is half DG, half campaign, and is optimized.

 

Since I do not have a threat dump, I always ask for guard at the start of the FP if the tank appears to be not as geared equally.

 

I always feel like a jerk asking for it, but I know if I don't get it, I'll pull off the tank. Like I said though, if the tank is geared, I won't ask. But I've been told numerous times by tanks that they want the guard on the healer. Oh well.

DPS shouldn't feel bad for asking for a guard. You are only doing what you think is best for the group. DPS should always ask for a guard if they are unsure the tank can hold threat. I play a PT dps as well. I'm gonna request a guard to any tank, because I know there is no possible way the tank is going to keep up with my 3000 dps I pull out in the first 15 sec or so of a fight. With that guard, it means that I can go all out, which is very advantageous to the group. Don't think it as boasting or cocky behavior. You are only doing what is best for the group.

So if the first words out of your mouth are "guard me," then that just tells me that you suck, or you're trying to pimp strut your roxxor stats. That means you don't need it, or you don't deserve it. Either way, you're not getting it.

What if they say "Can i have guard, please?"

Those who know their job and how to do it, and who are geared enough to actually pull off a target that a tank means to hold aggro on, do not need guard to take whatever hits they get.

The extra armor you get from high level gear doesn't really reduce the incoming damage THAT much, so no, that would be dependent on the healer rather than the DPS gear. Either way, DPS pulling aggro means more work for the healer, which you should be trying to avoid - the tanks job is to hold aggro, and if you need to use a guard in order to do so, you should - otherwise there's no point in you being there, you're just a wasted spot in the group.

Shame that some tanks have no idea how to review who needs the guard. If all the tanks in the world would be perfect I'd understand this thread completely. However, too often the guard is the wrong player and that is in no way a personal insult to tanks who know what they are doing. In fact, it's been my pleasure to play with tanks who can manage not guarding anyone as a challenge. In operations where all the DPS pull 1900-2000 to the operations dummy. No guard. All went well.

Still, it's just a click or a button away to guard someone properly. It's not rocket science but some still miss it completely. I am happy that some tanks actually know what an aggro table is and what actually matters. I am even happier when these tanks have the uncanny ability to inspect players and recognize if the DPS has an optimized itemization. As a side note: I like it even more when DPSes pay enough attention to drop threat at the right time. If you don't know what I mean it's time you do some googling.

You were mistaken, the rant starts now:

Some despicable morons always guard the sentinel, never mind checking the gear of other players. Guard a sentinel with columi gear vs guarding a vanguard or any other class with BiS'ish gear. It suggests that many tanks do not have enough cells in their brains to inspect players and see that someone else can do more damage from melee or even from ranged position to be higher on the aggro table. They do not know that some classes can't drop threat. They do not know vanguard and vanguard's HiB critting to top the three button rotation critting. They always blame others for their own failures while gloating in their hard grinded 61 BH gear, something they could have achieved by learning to play and joining as proper guild in a shorter time.

Picking the one to guard in puggys is not class specific in any way. To top this off, I've seen a vanguard tanking from range. Awesome, really. Gree event and pugging three bosses has opened my eyes to the horror of random suck-*** tanks. Yes, the vanguard Xenoanalyst from range. We did heal everyone else through it. Surprisingly, the tank didn't need that much healing.

All in all, do not demonize asking for guard. Half the time someone asking for guard might be a douche, half the time it might be someone saving you from a wipe or just a good guy wanting to make things smooth. I have more tanks in ignore than any other class. Somehow, low skills of tank are often combined with either good nature and humor, which indicates that tank has a future. Then some other time, when the skills are bad and the tank is a douche, it tells me that tank has no future >>> ignore.

I am happy that some tanks actually know what an aggro table is and what actually matters. I am even happier when these tanks have the uncanny ability to inspect players and recognize if the DPS has an optimized itemization. As a side note: I like it even more when DPSes pay enough attention to drop threat at the right time.

I guess i'm in the minority of the tanks who actually check gear before starting and know what force camouflage does with my sentinel.

Shame that some tanks have no idea how to review who needs the guard.

All my dps toons are type 1 female bodies, all look delicate and fragile. I never get guarded even though they are all campaign, black hole and DG geared. I do my best to use aggro dumps, follow kill order and give the tank a chance to build aggro, so I am not really concerned about not being guarded. If I mess up and pull I know how to use defensive cooldown, dump aggro, pop a medpack and keep on burning.

However, I have found in the gree event, my character delicate looks has made me a target in the pvp areas. I have been attacked a number of times while doing the heroic. This has lead to my death more than once, but it has also lead to some really shocked attackers when I finished off the droid, and then hit defensive cooldowns and finished them off too. Commando with 100% health, that shot my infiltration shadow the entire time I was killing the three droids, must have been really shocked when I closed ground and took him down to 0 before I lost my final 10%.

Tanks don't have it any easier, there is no foolproof way to know who to guard in a PUG. Gear is obvious, but players abilities and knowledge of game mechanics are less likely to pull. I have been in HMFP and Operations where people are whispering to me excitedly they are pulling aggro from the tank like it is something to be extremely proud of. I, like most people, want to put out the highest dps numbers possible, but not at the determent of the group's progress. So when I pull aggro I feel it is the sign that I am playing badly.

You always guard the person who is likely to pull the most threat of the tank. If you cannot figure that out by the first fight just guard the healer and be done with it.

 

Most likely the DPS with the best gear will pull off the tank the most although that is a big assumption as they may not know their rotations.

 

Plus pulling off a well geared sin may take some effort.

U just made one big mistakes with best gear or the most skilled. In gree event i was pulling aggro of bosses as sorcerer even if there was full 63 mara and full 63 sniper..I just felt 2powerful that moment

All in all, do not demonize asking for guard. Half the time someone asking for guard might be a douche, half the time it might be someone saving you from a wipe or just a good guy wanting to make things smooth. I have more tanks in ignore than any other class. .

At first I was sort of miffed by your rant, but then became amused. You realize we are talking about the flip side of the same issue? I was laughing at the way many DPS ask for guard without any checking of who else is in the raid and are they really the one who needs it most. You are talking about lazy tanks that just throw guard on whoever for no good reason and without inspecting. Just had this in Xenoanalyst II fight on HM 16 man. Tank put guard on marauder with most HP. On inspection, 2 snipers and another marauder were far more a threat due to good optimization and higher damage. Deciding who to guard involves some understanding of how all the classes work and that is something that takes time to learn.

Lazy and poor playing abound, its is just most apparent when the tank is guilty and most common (maybe just by sheer numbers) in DPS.

At first I was sort of miffed by your rant, but then became amused. You realize we are talking about the flip side of the same issue? I was laughing at the way many DPS ask for guard without any checking of who else is in the raid and are they really the one who needs it most. You are talking about lazy tanks that just throw guard on whoever for no good reason and without inspecting. Just had this in Xenoanalyst II fight on HM 16 man. Tank put guard on marauder with most HP. On inspection, 2 snipers and another marauder were far more a threat due to good optimization and higher damage. Deciding who to guard involves some understanding of how all the classes work and that is something that takes time to learn.

 

Lazy and poor playing abound, its is just most apparent when the tank is guilty and most common (maybe just by sheer numbers) in DPS.

Well, don't be too quick to judge. It's far from uncommon for the inspect to bug out and show you you own gear instead, so at that point you only have HP and class to go by. If that happened, I would have done the same.

Just bringing my two cents to the topic now that I have something to tell you

I was running my daily HM and the Foundry popped out also the group seemed to be nicely geared so in we go. At the first conversation running in the background I asked for the Jugg tank if he could guard my BH marauder and I got the guard although the around BH geared sorc healer started to whine loundly and continously he would absolutely need the guard. The tank left the guard on me still and in we went but the healer let the tank to die against the first groups of thrash there and went on aggroing the groups first and did not care to heal the tank. The tank asked the healer to play nicely but he refused which made the tank to leave before the first boss.

After that we had a verbal "fight" with the healer who was really acting and behaving like a douche. He insisted "he is so damn awesome with his heals that he always needs guard because he creates so much aggro...And his guild's tanks always guard on him!" I really had to laugh at him and I let him know how hilarious he sounded. When GF popped us a new tank the healer got his guard then.

The "fun" did not stop there though! From the first boss to HK he was not healing me at all because "my attitude was rubbish" Well I just killed normals on those groups then and let the others aggro and kill the silvers and golds. I also let them know during the convo with HK-47 that I will only kill adds during the fight as I won't get healed. Suddenly the mood for the healer changed and he stated "oh okey then, get over it and lets just do this" Well we finished Foundry rather nicely but my ignore-list still got one new name onto it...

Bottom line, you do not guard healers in standard PvE. It is a waste. If the healer has aggro, you did something wrong, end of discussion. Healing aggro is negligible, and guard will not keep mobs off a healer if you are ignoring the mob.

If you attack the mob AT ALL, you will hold it off the healer.

And what's the reason to guard the healer if you can easily keep the mob? he will not get a lot of dmg as no mobs attack him

Because phase 2 TFB, threat isn't an issue, but you may as well have the damage reduction on someone, why not a healer. 2 people in your raid taking 95% of their usual damage is better than no people in your raid guarded.

Because phase 2 TFB, threat isn't an issue, but you may as well have the damage reduction on someone, why not a healer. 2 people in your raid taking 95% of their usual damage is better than no people in your raid guarded.

Actually, in Phase 2 of TFB the threat *is* an issue. Healers will steal aggro far too easily in there if they're not guarded, because the tanks are doing minimal damage to the Terror even with their full rotations.

Additionally, if there's any aggro held over from the first phase (honestly not sure if there is), it'll all be on the healer because the tanks weren't able to hit the boss there.

I don't think anyone who's done the fight will dispute the need to guard the healers in the second phase of the Terror fight. It's guarding healers any other time that's at issue here.

At first I was sort of miffed by your rant, but then became amused. You realize we are talking about the flip side of the same issue? I was laughing at the way many DPS ask for guard without any checking of who else is in the raid and are they really the one who needs it most. You are talking about lazy tanks that just throw guard on whoever for no good reason and without inspecting. Just had this in Xenoanalyst II fight on HM 16 man. Tank put guard on marauder with most HP. On inspection, 2 snipers and another marauder were far more a threat due to good optimization and higher damage. Deciding who to guard involves some understanding of how all the classes work and that is something that takes time to learn.

 

Lazy and poor playing abound, its is just most apparent when the tank is guilty and most common (maybe just by sheer numbers) in DPS.

Oh no, you were actually miffed? Then became amused? Good, because my "rant" was written in mockery of this thread and intended to be the spiky flip side view. Awesome that you got the drift.

To the topic, I appreciate good tanks a lot. Most of all classes really. Of course it's more visible as a tank for someone to portray they haven't even bothered to read their tooltips, let alone trying to figure things out. General explanation would be that this game is casual. People play it casual. This is not limited to tanking as it limits a lot of dpses and healers also.

Gree event has opened my eyes to yet another thing: General awarness of pug groups. Normal EVE player (or HoV competitive player) would DPS the Xenoanalyst II on HM after first try while watching a presidential debate and not missing a word and still "doing ok".

I actually wish they'd insert a fight scoreboard showing damage taken/healed/damage done/threat generated -after the pull is over. Then it would just disappear. It would give those "wot u mean zomg" -people an idea of what is possible. I know, casuals would hate it, ie. 80% of the player base but .. shrug. I just see it as something to motivate them to work things out, or god forbid, ask about their class from someone.

Actually, in Phase 2 of TFB the threat *is* an issue. Healers will steal aggro far too easily in there if they're not guarded, because the tanks are doing minimal damage to the Terror even with their full rotations.

 

Additionally, if there's any aggro held over from the first phase (honestly not sure if there is), it'll all be on the healer because the tanks weren't able to hit the boss there.

 

I don't think anyone who's done the fight will dispute the need to guard the healers in the second phase of the Terror fight. It's guarding healers any other time that's at issue here.

Oh, I will dispute the "need" (if by "need" you imply it is too hard to do without) to guard healers even there.

I have done it even on hardmode without guarding healers. Besides if you were to ever do it in 16-man you would have less tanks than healers, and could not guard them all, and would have to device a way to keep aggro off unguarded healers anyway. Although I did only 8-man in HM, I still did not even bother guarding healers.

It is only before the first tank switch that you run a high risk of loosing aggro to healers. So all you have to do is to have the first tank to begin by using both his single taunt and aoe taunt to build threat, then few seconds later have the second tank to taunt it and use both his single taunt and aoe taunt to build up threat. If that second tank is Assassin/Shadow he can also stand in the outer circle and use Force Shroud/Resilience to make himself immune to the damage he receives for 5 seconds, so there is not even any pressure for healers to switch targets all the time. Then after 5 seconds the first tank will taunt it back to himself, and hold it until the first scream when they need to tank switch for real. After having done all this the boss has been taunted so many times, that with the way taunts multiply your threat, the tanks will no longer loose aggro to healers, and will continue to just tank normally.

The last 20% is a bit tricky too, but it can be handled too.

Does it benefit to guard healers in this fight? Yes it does. It is one of those rare fights where normal aggro mechanics are not in place so it actually does benefit to guard healers.

Is it necessary to guard healers there? No, not really. You can do it easily enough even without it.

I actually wish they'd insert a fight scoreboard showing damage taken/healed/damage done/threat generated -after the pull is over. Then it would just disappear. It would give those "wot u mean zomg" -people an idea of what is possible. I know, casuals would hate it, ie. 80% of the player base but .. shrug. I just see it as something to motivate them to work things out, or god forbid, ask about their class from someone.

 

I really want to see this. The "threat generated" column could be pretty amusing sometimes, as I am positive (as a healer) that I have gone through flashpoints (both pre-50 and HM) where one dps was generating more threat than the tank waaay too often

Very easy to get group information for a regular raid group, just make a group log and have the group upload their combat log to TorParse. You will get your score card.

Anyone in a progression group should be doing this at least occasionally, especially when the group is having trouble getting past a certain boss. Just need to be careful to use it as a tool for the entire group to get better and not a bragging trophy.

Upload combat logs or parse should not be punishments; they should be use as tools to make the group better. Then you know if you are pulling your weight and can work to improve. Isn’t that the entire point of playing a social game, is to have the team win?

Very easy to get group information for a regular raid group, just make a group log and have the group upload their combat log to TorParse. You will get your score card.

 

Anyone in a progression group should be doing this at least occasionally, especially when the group is having trouble getting past a certain boss. Just need to be careful to use it as a tool for the entire group to get better and not a bragging trophy.

 

Upload combat logs or parse should not be punishments; they should be use as tools to make the group better. Then you know if you are pulling your weight and can work to improve. Isn’t that the entire point of playing a social game, is to have the team win?

SwMoniTOR actually has a threat generation graph overlay, as does Mox Parser, I believe.

It's akin to telling a healer who to shield.

 

Past that, in the OPs case, no columi geared DPSer -- regardless of how good they are -- is going to pull off a geared Assassin.

No it isn't - lots of tanks forget to set guard, and I've seen immensely poor play from "Warstalkers". It is in no way a bad idea to remind people to use their abilities if they dont by themselves.