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The Fans Want More Star Wars RPG's.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion > Off-Topic
The Fans Want More Star Wars RPG's.

Kryptonomic's Avatar


Kryptonomic
01.25.2019 , 04:49 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Ardrossan View Post
*speaking of cyborgs, Krypto, do you know why they made them a separate species? Or why they had the game read Miraluka as aliens? If my PC puts a helmet on, why am I still subject to xenophobia? Are these telepathic bigots or something?
Cyborgs were literally a "We don't know what else to add." More specifically, though, they were a hurried addition when they realized they needed something to even out their initial offering. They imposed a whole lot of restrictions on themselves at the start regarding playable species. Originally "cyborgs" weren't going to be separate. Cyborg components were just a customization option. But they ran into a slew of problems with that in terms of the different species.

Speaking to your other point, though, here's some (possibly) interesting notes on the testing around that notion of in-game consistency. There's tons of examples of these I have but I'll be brief and pick just one class.

Consider the Imperial Agent. The notorious pirate "Red Blade" is mentioned in text. Jheeg says he is "small-time pirate." Keeper just says "a visiting pirate and trader." Jheeg also says "rich" and "mysterious." And, of course, dialogue states: "No one knows true species, gender, or color." All plausible perhaps. But a few issues were raised.

If this "Blade" is "notorious", they would at least be known in terms of what they broadly look like in armor, right? (And if they are "small time" why would Nem'ro care about the rumors of the pirate visiting?)

But let's go back to the body size thing. Again, even if people knew very little of the Blade, they would see that it was a big person. When you encounter the Red Blade, it's clearly a body size 3 male. Originally our testing suggested that the body size of the Red Blade character should be matched to whatever body side the player chose. But they opted not to go that route. It still seemed odd. So then testing suggested this actually could have been handled in game as an intelligence screw up. Meaning, have some dialogue where the agent of a disproportionate body size says something like "How was I ever supposed to pass for that guy?!" The idea being to show that Intelligence has some glaring flaws, which could be played on later in the story. But that was ruled out.

Another miss right out of the starting gate: they didn't give you Red Blade armor! The last thing you would do is go undercover without your actual cover identity in place. By the time your identity is even given to you, tons of people have seen you at the spaceport! We brought this up during testing as well. Even if the Red Blade is mysterious, they are also notorious and thus would likely be known at least by appearance in armor. So the suggestion was to start the player off in that armor. Ignored.

Beyond that -- and more to your point -- if you are wearing full armor as an agent, people will make comments about what you look like -- but they can't possibly know. You're in armor! As an agent being undercover, this obviously should have been thought of. And it was during the narrative experience testing.

To give you an idea of how badly input was taken in, consider: when all of the above testing was brought up, there was one change made. One -- and only one -- of the dialog options has the Red Blade that you meet tell you that you could perhaps have been one of the Red Blades. Implying, of course, that there are many. That perhaps it's a group. Except -- wouldn't this group also be notorious? And why was the Red Blade previously spoken of (by Jheeg and Keeper) in a very singular sense?

A lot of people think that extra bit of dialogue was due to the Red Blade being a concept that was meant to be expanded but never was. Nope. It was just a poor response to a lot of testing that was suggesting that the narrative cohesion is a bit off.

As a bit of backstory into how the agent and bounty hunter were broken out, consider that the little side quests in the starting area make no sense for an agent; even an undercover one. They do for a bounty hunter. A way to have reconciled this was to have the Red Blade be a ... bounty hunter! Then doing these side jobs would have been the agent maintaining their undercover identity. Or a suggestion was made that perhaps the Red Blade is known to have fallen on hard times and is no longer "rich" thus will do anything for money. Dialogue from Keeper and/or Jheeg was suggested to accommodate that.

What happened? There's one line you can say to Karrels Javis where you say you "need money and you're not picky how you get it." So, again, you can see the common response that often came up to this kind of testing. The mantra (often) became "This is an MMO; people aren't going to pay attention to details on quests." I'm not even saying that' entirely untrue. But further testing showed that many people (players; not professional testers) immediately noticed these discrepancies as well.

Again, I'm just picking on one area here of one class right at the start. I wrote an article about this kind of "bumping the lamp" style testing, albeit not for SWTOR but for GTA 5.

Ardrossan's Avatar


Ardrossan
01.25.2019 , 06:05 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Kryptonomic View Post
Cyborgs were literally a "We don't know what else to add." More specifically, though, they were a hurried addition when they realized they needed something to even out their initial offering. They imposed a whole lot of restrictions on themselves at the start regarding playable species. Originally "cyborgs" weren't going to be separate. Cyborg components were just a customization option. But they ran into a slew of problems with that in terms of the different species.
That squares with how many people seem to view cyborgs. It's a bit pathetic considering the number of humanoid species in this IP. It also suggests, going from your other dialogue, that there were a lot of missed opportunities. Cyborgs show up in the earlier kotors, and they're seen as abnormal, and when they show up as NPCs in this game, there's a lot of revulsion around them, but Cyborg PCs are just treated like baseline humans, even if you're a cyborg SI trying to kill Skotia, or a cyborg RT who has to kill a room full of people because they *might* be cyborgs.

Quote:
To give you an idea of how badly input was taken in, consider: when all of the above testing was brought up, there was one change made. One -- and only one -- of the dialog options has the Red Blade that you meet tell you that you could perhaps have been one of the Red Blades. Implying, of course, that there are many. That perhaps it's a group. Except -- wouldn't this group also be notorious? And why was the Red Blade previously spoken of (by Jheeg and Keeper) in a very singular sense?
This crops up again on NS during the pubside planetary, The Mountain, who is apparently six [very weak] Nikto.

Regarding the silliness of an IA doing missions while undercover, at least now with increased xp since launch, you can skip most or all of those missions and still leave the planet over-level. But it crops up again on Balmorra.

I guess the moral of all this is that BW ignoring feedback is timeless.

Darka's Avatar


Darka
01.27.2019 , 09:23 PM | #23
Sooo, whats Rockstar or CDProjekt up to now?
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SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
01.28.2019 , 07:28 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Ardrossan View Post
or a cyborg RT who has to kill a room full of people because they *might* be cyborgs.
Oh God, I remember thinking exactly that, on my second character, the Cyborg commandogirl Kylath. It was the source of her undying emnity towards a certain big-butted general, because I interpreted it (incorrectly in retrospect) as Garza saying that *cyborgs* were bad, rather than that those *potential* cyborgs were a major risk. (Not that "they might have been encyborgified for bad purposes, so murder them out of hand" is any less bad a thing to say, mind you.)

And I still wonder why we didn't have the "take them into custody until we can work out whether they are really cyborgs" option.
http://www.swtor.com/r/Hg3sV2
To go to Belsavis, you must go to Belsavis.
> @"Biff.5312" said:
> Exercise your whimsy.

xordevoreaux's Avatar


xordevoreaux
01.28.2019 , 03:42 PM | #25
Basically an unfunded mandate. A petition < > the investment cash necessary to build a AAA title game.
Referral Link: http://www.swtor.com/r/F4XbCd
In English, a leading X on a word is pronounced like a Z. (zorDEVoro).

SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
01.29.2019 , 04:29 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Darka View Post
Sooo, whats Rockstar or CDProjekt up to now?
Grand Theft Death Star?
http://www.swtor.com/r/Hg3sV2
To go to Belsavis, you must go to Belsavis.
> @"Biff.5312" said:
> Exercise your whimsy.

Ardrossan's Avatar


Ardrossan
01.29.2019 , 02:41 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by SteveTheCynic View Post
Oh God, I remember thinking exactly that, on my second character, the Cyborg commandogirl Kylath. It was the source of her undying emnity towards a certain big-butted general, because I interpreted it (incorrectly in retrospect) as Garza saying that *cyborgs* were bad, rather than that those *potential* cyborgs were a major risk. (Not that "they might have been encyborgified for bad purposes, so murder them out of hand" is any less bad a thing to say, mind you.)

And I still wonder why we didn't have the "take them into custody until we can work out whether they are really cyborgs" option.
Speaking of cyborgs and Garza, let's contrast this choice with the mission Garza gives you on Rishi. It would have been clever foreshadowing if there'd be an option to recruit them on the spot into specforce. At least with the Rishi mission, the trooper isn't under Garza's chain of command anymore and doesn't have to cover up war crimes. Apart from the SW killing the Emperor's Hands, the Trooper mission [LS] was surprisingly the most satisfying of all of the Rishi mini-missions, imo.