To me this is a lot of complaining about a non-issue. If you are doing enough damage to Toth and Zorn, then you should be geared and experienced enough to deal with overlapping mechanics.

With Writhing Horror it is even less of an issue and an intended mechanic. With my groups no DPS use adrenals, relics or damage buffs until the first burrow to let the tanks build aggro. We never see an enrage timer and kill the Boss after the second Jealous Male or as the third appears. There is no issue here if you are a competent raid group.

Pushing aggro on HM Writhing Horror really isn't an issue. If the tanks are good (as in know the fight like the back of their hands) then they can go with the flow.

It's HM Kephess where this has made me go "Nooooooooo!"

Ever tried healing when the Walker goes down in 2 tries on HM rather than 3? We did this cause we thought it would save time. Well it didn't cause we died:(

Why does BW want our dps to sit on their thumbs during the Walker Phases? I don't understand the purpose of having our dps just sit back and pick their noses.

... But with popping inspiration right in the beginning of the fight to coincide with the power use relics and my Flyby, tanks aren't given enough ability to sustain threat through that kinda of dps output, especially with 2 sentinels hitting master strike during that phase.

Well there's your problem right there! If you're doing that much DPS that early in the fight, then you are begging to pull aggro and wipe your raid.

That being said, we had to wait to use Inspiration and wait to use the power use relics until tanks could generate enough threat.

And that is exactly what you should do. You've got to wait until after the first tank swap to start that level of big burst damage. It's almost insanity to make your tanks keep aggro through all that your dps is doing.

There should be absolutely no concept of "too much dps." This should be something that's impossible to do, especially with a boss that has an enrage timer. The Zorn and Toth fight is way worse, I agree, but the Writhing Horror fight is bugged when you do too much damage too quickly and rip aggro off the tank.

First, if you're doing that much dps, you'll never hit the enrage timer to begin with. Second, while "You can never have too much dps" is as true a maxim that can ever be said, having too much dps at the wrong time during a fight can cause more harm than good in a split second. Third, if you're complaining this much about dps problems on the Writhing Horror, then I'm surprised that you're not complaining about dps problems on the tentacles in the first phase of the TFB fight. Oh wait, dps is most likely holding back so tanks don't lose aggro on the tentacles (assuming you've made it that far). Do the same on the WH and you won't have any problems.

And honestly, if you aren't encountering these issues, you might want to make sure your dps are doing the proper rotations. I've had to leave the flyby completely out of my rotation in order to not bug the fight. That is just not acceptable.

Most guilds DON'T encounter these problems because they HOLD BACK their dps until the appropriate moment. Perhaps, your dps might want to re-roll and learn to tank? Or read up on how threat works and how taunts work on threat? That way your dps can have a better understanding of the horrors you are putting your tanks through (and by extension your healers). Just a thought

Edit: Quick question. Is your raid running with 2 Jugg tanks? Cause Jugg tanks are still notorious for losing aggro.

Zorn and toth eh can easily be planned around. As for the withering horror, come on now i do fine holding threat with 2 orbitals(one by healer), a mara and a pt in my group. Mara and PT and both over 2k dps and they pop everything to start there is also a sniper and a merc doing 1900. I never have asked them to hold on dps i simply adapted. I'll be honest it does seem like the withering horror's aggro table is lower than other bosses(almost like storm caller). Before they were geared i would wait roughly 6 attacks before my first taunt now i have no choice but to do it after my 2nd or third and as that wears off aoe taunt goes out and again when that wears off single target taunt after that it is smooth riding. It's really just about getting more comfortable with your other raiders.

If you think a mara is tough to hold aggro on get a very good PT and try holding aggro off someone with no threat dump putting up 2k dps.

Complaining about stuff you overgear being a little complicated to if push phases is silly.

I defy you to push HM T&Z phases in only Rakata gear. If your group is in well chosen Black Hole to Dread Guard gear, there's no reason you should be fighting normal or hard mode T&Z.

Kephess the Undying in TFB is the same story, in SM when upon entering the last phase if you knock down the pillar at 10% and nuke with overgeared people, you can have him dead before he comes up. In HM you can already bring him down to 3 ~ 4%. A few more gear upgrades and there too you can simply skip the last phase.

this make no sense.

there is nothing easier in game than just stop DPS. It has been our strat since our very first kill 3 month ago to bring kephess to 11% stop dps, drop a pillar on it and stun it, than use every cooldown, inspiration, adrenal to bring it as low as possible before it get out of stun.

following the same strat for the past 3 month has been a success for us. having more raid dps make the fight far easier, as during the stun we can bring it closer and closer to 0% and it shorten the phase 3 considerably.

Even in wow, they have been many boss where a "stop dps" is a viable strategy. Last in my mind was heroic ragnaros, keeping a son of flame alive and killing it at the last moment. Another one was heroic spine of death wing, we keep one of the big add alive and wait for 9 blood pool on the ground, then kill it. same for the tentacule that grip.

Stop DPS is a PVE strategy tool ans must be learned to progress in PVE. If your raid team is incapable of stopping DPS on demand, it does not deserve to down bosses. period.

Sorry to be harsh, that's the truth.

By the logic of some in this thread, Force Leech is a bug. I have built a pretty good healer both gear wise and knowing my abilities, so it is really unfair that Force Leech pops up and I can’t just keep mindlessly pressing buttons. It isn’t fair. (sarcasm for those that can’t tell).

Think Kitru and MythicalKnight pretty much explained it really well.

Stop DPS is a PVE strategy tool and must be learned to progress in PVE.

QFT

In a number of fight we will slow down, stop or speed up dps on the order of our ops leader (speed up usually means healers add dps to the fight). Once everyone in the group learned to do this, progression got faster and wipes got fewer.

I stop reading this thread, some are using ******** to defend this ****.

No, Force Leech isn't the same thing : force Leech doesn't ask to the healer to "slow down", but to stop healing a tank and focus on the second one. Something similar of the Shield when you fight the Pilgrim, or Fearful against Zorn. Something similar with a healer would be "you NEED to continue healing, but without getting above 1800 HPS or you tank dies. Thank you !".

The ones pushing buttons mindlessly are exactly the ones like mikebevo : they don't try to get the best of their classes, they just follow what others took hours, even days to understand, and then think that they are good to give us a lecture.

I find disgusting oh having spent countless hours to understand how I should play my char, what gear I must use to get the best of my play, where I must place my char, etc and then finding that the ones like mikebevo, who don't even care to take the best out of their char, have an easier job. Do you realize that this attitude is like asking to the players "get lazy, your life will be easier" ? Punishing the best elements and asking them to be "in the average" shouldn't even be considered. But when I see folks defending this idea and saying that "you are mindlessly pushing buttons", I understand why the World is getting dumber every day.

Having to stop my DPS to follow a mechanism designed by the devs : ok.

Having to stop my DPS because the same devs were too lazy to prevent the issue : no.

If you claim to get the twisted spawns during your third Jealous Mate, I'd express severe doubt until you could prove it with a combat log.

I'm pretty confident that any group with the dps to clear NiEC has the dps to start the burn phase before the third Male appears.

so asking dps to stop dps in order to have a smooth phase transition is "punishing" DPS? seriously?

 

It's like you say, being able to dish out top dps, having read guide on the net and practice your rotation, that is the easy part, any morron can do it.

 

Being a good teammate, playing your part to down a boss, that means dishing top damage when needed, and stop dps when needed, that is what i means to be a good PVE player. Playing for the team, not for the damage meters.

 

So yeah, STOP DPS is acceptable. Not respecting it makes you a bad player, not a bad mechanics

I wanted to ignore this thread, but I really the ones like you, saying "all noobs, except me". What do you think we do ? Wipes during hours ? We simply do what you ask for : stop DPS. Any newbie can do that, that's not "being a good teamate" to have some common sense.

But, again,"all noobs except me" is your moto .....

i don't get what you're saying.

i do not consider myself a great PVE player, at aleast a good team player.

And yes, it feels from your post that you only want tank and spank fight, with no technical difficulty, which is boring.

the mechanics of the boss are the way they are, it's perfectly doable, there are no gamebreaking bug, there are no bug at all. If the only thing to do is stop DPS for a few seconds then you stop.

You do whatever is needed to down a boss. It becomes part of your strat. it's not rocket science.

Yes, having too much damage can be a bad thing in certain fights or fight phases. It is a mechanic that makes DPS into a balancing act, which can generate new strategy and tactic changes to operation groups that up their DPS between attempting a particular fight. Translation: it keeps things spicy even if you have done the fight 49789743a3 times. Don't like the mechanic? Don't attempt the bosses. Still want your loot? Learn to like it and adapt to possible DPS imbalance. No one likes dieing/wiping yet we still attempt bosses for the sake of loot/progression.

TLDR: LEARN THE FIGHTS (EVEN THE PART WHERE **** DOESN'T GO THE WAY YOU PLANNED)

-Captain Obvious

I find it funny that Hovergame is upset about this mechanic, but in Stealth Detection greater than standard agro range He is defending that game mechanic. My guess is maybe he does not have a stealth character.

I would like to apologize for my jokingly sarcastic comment above. I understand how some people can misunderstand what I meant by it.

My main on the imperial and republic sides are healers, but I do play dps too. I understand that it isn’t as easy as people say it is, personally I find healing the easiest class in game. Especially when you have great tanks and dps in the group, but I also understand when you have dps that only cares about the highest dps numbers possible that healing, tanking and everything else can become extremely difficult. In progression mitigating damage and threat is almost as important as dps numbers to the success of the group.

Again apologizes, to anyone I may have offended; I just don’t see how a mechanic that makes you adapt to a situation within a game is a bad thing. Which is why I agree with Hovergame in the stealth thread even though my first two toons to 50 were my sawbones (main) and a shadow.

I find it funny that Hovergame is upset about this mechanic, but in Stealth Detection greater than standard agro range He is defending that game mechanic. My guess is maybe he does not have a stealth character.

 

I would like to apologize for my jokingly sarcastic comment above. I understand how some people can misunderstand what I meant by it.

 

My main on the imperial and republic sides are healers, but I do play dps too. I understand that it isn’t as easy as people say it is, personally I find healing the easiest class in game. Especially when you have great tanks and dps in the group, but I also understand when you have dps that only cares about the highest dps numbers possible that healing, tanking and everything else can become extremely difficult. In progression mitigating damage and threat is almost as important as dps numbers to the success of the group.

 

Again apologizes, to anyone I may have offended; I just don’t see how a mechanic that makes you adapt to a situation within a game is a bad thing. Which is why I agree with Hovergame in the stealth thread even though my first two toons to 50 were my sawbones (main) and a shadow.

More than 60 days (time saw with /played) played with my Shadow. Fail, boy. Don't try to guess about me next time, you'll fail again.

Again, the mechanism in Zorn and toth is lazy coding. The mechanism about the WH is intended and, if you DPs a bit more, you can even skip the 3rd JM. See the difference ? What's next ? A boss becomes unkillable if you are above 2K DPS ?

Again, the mechanism in Zorn and toth is lazy coding.

I suggest you write the correct code ans send them, that ought to show them.

And to the person who said the tanks need to learn better aggro rotations obviously hasn't played this game much. If you have a very geared sentinel, their Master Strike ability will rip aggro all the time, even from an absurdly geared tank. The game isn't quite balanced yet on certain classes, so aggro is always a problem. I've had guard put on me before and still ripped aggro on certain phases of fights. It's only a problem 2% of the time, but still annoying nonetheless.

Yeah, Master Strike never puts up that much threat. As someone who has played a Sent as my main since beta, it's never been an issue. Either your tank sucks, isn't as well geared as he thinks he is, or you're not threat dumping as often as you should

Really? I know at least 3 Guilds this happens to on Harbinger; Momentum, MLP, and EoM (Republic side)

Last night in Hatred's NiM EC run, we downed the walker on Kephess with 3 DPS, and killed the writhing horror after the 2nd pool. In NiM T&Z, we get invisible swaps between the two bosses occasionally because of how high raid wide dps is. Last night, my Mara ended the NiM F&S fight with just over 2030 dps and 750k damage. DPS can, and will bug fights if your raid wide DPS is very high, I know our guild often holds on dps just to make sure we don't break a mechanic. It's certainly not uncommon. HP % mechanics on the bosses are irresponsible on BW's part as some DPS compositions do hugely exceed their balancing. They balanced NiM F&S for 1600 per dps, yet we have DPS that easily push into the 1.9k and 2k range. Hopefully, they'll figure it out eventually.

I suggest you write the correct code ans send them, that ought to show them.

I suggest you NEVER complain when someone's work isn't bad. You never complain about bugs, too, I guess

Lazy coding is just when a dev doesn't prepare a solution for a given situation. I can remember a few games, here are a few examples :

In Valkyrie Profile, when you fail hard, Ferya isn't "happy" and attacks you. This fight should be impossible to win, but with a decent team, you can beat her. but even if you do, the video is the same as if you lost, Freya is telling Odin how she "solved" the problem.

In Valkirye profile, Covenant of the pume, if you use the Plume too much, Freya comes (again) for a fight. she's unkillable without cheats, but with cheats you can kill her, but you still get a wonderful Game Over as if you died.

In Phantasy Star 2, you are fighting Dark Force early in the game. Everything is made to make you lose and one of your companions die to save you. But if you kill him, the game resumes but you are trapped in the dungeon and cannot do anything.

But I can give you some counter-examples : in Chrno Trigger, you have to fight Lavos before early in the game. You are supposed to lose, but if you win, you are getting a special ending.

In False Emperor, if you go alone, Malgus, instead of saying that one of us are woved to join the new Empire, make a comment about how coming alone is bold and foolish.

A "bug" (in fact, a lazy coding), that makes the fight a lot easier than designed, will be corrected, I don't understand how you can accept that a lazy coding (or a "bug") that makes the fight harder than designed. Who you accept that, if your tank doesn't take enough damage, the boss enrages just after the start of he fight ? Would ask your tank to remove some pieces of stuff ?

Yeah, Master Strike never puts up that much threat. As someone who has played a Sent as my main since beta, it's never been an issue. Either your tank sucks, isn't as well geared as he thinks he is, or you're not threat dumping as often as you should

In response to this, you must not be that great. As a carnage Mara, my opener often exceeds 4.5k dps, and I then maintain 2.3-2.5k for the next 20-30 seconds. Even dropping aggro after my first gore window, and guarded I can rip threat a few more times after that. Tanks can usually do 500 or so DPS, just do the math there and realize that my bottom end damage is 4 times theirs and some change and you can see how that happens.

Tanks can usually do 500 or so DPS

If that's true, your tanks suck. I pull in excess of 800-900 DPS on my Shadow tank and even Guardians, who have the worst ST damage and threat generation, should be pulling at least 700. If you're pulling threat from a tank with 500 DPS, it's because they're terrible, not because you're amazing.

If that's true, your tanks suck. I pull in excess of 800-900 DPS on my Shadow tank and even Guardians, who have the worst ST damage and threat generation, should be pulling at least 700. If you're pulling threat from a tank with 500 DPS, it's because they're terrible, not because you're amazing.

This simply isn't true.

This is one of the fallacy of DPS meters : some people would like to believe that bigger number is all that matters, and believe it is a 'bug' or 'lazy coding' if they wipe the group by being stupid.

Encounters are designed around 1600 dps because that is what the average dps can achieve, and the game is designed to allow completion for the average player in 8man. Those who wants a real challenge can do 16 man operations.

If that's true, your tanks suck. I pull in excess of 800-900 DPS on my Shadow tank and even Guardians, who have the worst ST damage and threat generation, should be pulling at least 700. If you're pulling threat from a tank with 500 DPS, it's because they're terrible, not because you're amazing.

800 to 900 dps where? On a dummy or overall during a fight? Because if you're pulling 800 dps overall during a fight I call bull. The only time ever do even remotely close to 900 DPS Overall is during HM Kephass the Undying, otherwise I'm doing around 500-700 DPS Overall per fight, Firebrand being my current non-mechanically augmented best fight with 712 DPS overall.

On Topic:

Too much DPS can and does break certain fights, primarily Toth & Zorn and The Writhing Horror.

In Toth & Zorn we've had DPS push the Phases (which are based off of percentage which I feel is rather dumb) so far that at mechanics occur 15-20 seconds (at most like 45 on SM fun raids) before certain cooldowns finish (Stun breaker and Deflection for Shadows) causing me personally to be at the Whims of RNG during Berserk or having to take a Spike during a Red Circle phase. Not to mention Fearful not falling off before the next swap.

In The Writhing Horror the point where DPS breaks the fight is when you push the boss under 15% while the third Jealous Mate is still up and the incoming damage is just too high for the healers and tanks to be able to keep up.