Some good points here, but mostly related to class balance. I'm still trying to fathom the complete lack of any incentive for open-world pvp. Boggles my mind that killing an enemy player on a pvp server has no reward whatsoever, even in areas like the Outlaw's Den.

Its just not class that needs balance. Its the whole pvp zone that needs to be balanced by removing the premade/PUG combined WZs.

Its just not class that needs balance. Its the whole pvp zone that needs to be balanced by removing the premade/PUG combined WZs.

/agreed Nicely simplified.

People need to learn how to read. I never said you don't get punished for bad plays. I CLEARLY said you don't get punished enough for bad plays.

OK, so 2 warriors use the aoe mez at the exact same time: 6 seconds of CC, as opposed to one waits until the first mez worn off then use his that would result in 12 seconds of CC overall. Yeah, no repercussion at all.

Then let's say a warrior use his mez first. At 3 seconds into the 6 seconds mez, the other use his. That's an additional 3 seconds mez because there is NO DIMINISHING RETURNS IN THIS GAME. You should be punished for being stupid and not trying to mez at the end of the mez duration. With DR of let's say minus 50% duration on second mez. You would of been mezed for 6 seconds rather then 9 seconds and the second mez would of been wasted for nothing and it would have been a full 9 seconds if the player was competent. That's 50% longer CC then a bad play (9s for 6s) compared to only 33% more (12s for 9s). And with how CC hell this game is right now, DR would only make the game far less frustrating and annoying by reducing the amount of time you can stay CCed.

Im still w8ing for an answer. Which is that talent exactly that gives +10% dmg specificaly for a VIGILANCE guardian? Cause i dont Actually think you are proposing to nerf an ability because some end game pvp gear gives it a set bonus??? And thats for BOTH sent and guardians, NOT for vigilance guardians. Vigilance guardians are the last class that needs nerf in dmg.

Well obviously the set talent works for everyone. Did you ever learn how to read? I said vigilance because they gain a 4 seconds immunity. Added to the 5 things leap does and the set bonus.

And no, leap isnt an ability that does too much. On every mmo that has leap (charge) it does the same exactly things, builds main resource, deals low dmg and stuns target or root it, so when animation finish, you wont be 10 meters behind your enemt again...BW's resolve didnt work very well with stun on leap when they made that change, and they made it again root+interrupt. If you want an ability that does too much, that is Tracer Missile...

It is ranged, it deals high damage (more than leap...) , it reduces the dmg you take, it reduces target's armor,

it increases dmg of rail shot, it reduces cast time of healing scan, it has a chance to finish the cd of unload, it increases the dmg of unload. It increases the dmg of heetseaker missiles. Woahh there BW!!! Thats NINE (9) things that 1 ability does!! Nerf !! Nerf!!!

In others games, charges doesn't do thoses 5 things together. Charges in other game usually don't do damage and when they do they do not build up a character ressource. I never said Tracer missile doesn't do too much thing. Gunnery/Arsenal is a very boring gameplay all revolving into grav round/tracer missile and you get shut down as soon as someone use their interrupt. And tracer missile mostly boost damage all together rather then doing multiple utilities. It grant damage reduction, allow for healing scan to be casted faster up to instant, does damage and increase damage done spread around multiple abilities. That's 4 things, not 9. Leap does 5 different things without the need to be spec into anything.

People need to learn how to read. I never said you don't get punished for bad plays. I CLEARLY said you don't get punished enough for bad plays.

In your original post:

This game carries terrible players by the hand and leave the most common errors unpunished

Maybe you should learn to remember what you wrote.

Then let's say a warrior use his mez first. At 3 seconds into the 6 seconds mez, the other use his. That's an additional 3 seconds mez because there is NO DIMINISHING RETURNS IN THIS GAME. You should be punished for being stupid and not trying to mez at the end of the mez duration. With DR of let's say minus 50% duration on second mez. You would of been mezed for 6 seconds rather then 9 seconds and the second mez would of been wasted for nothing and it would have been a full 9 seconds if the player was competent. That's 50% longer CC then a bad play (9s for 6s) compared to only 33% more (12s for 9s). And with how CC hell this game is right now, DR would only make the game far less frustrating and annoying by reducing the amount of time you can stay CCed.

There's no point in diminished return in this game since CCs have cooldown.

In others games, charges doesn't do thoses 5 things together. Charges in other game usually don't do damage and when they do they do not build up a character ressource. I never said Tracer missile doesn't do too much thing. Gunnery/Arsenal is a very boring gameplay all revolving into grav round/tracer missile and you get shut down as soon as someone use their interrupt. And tracer missile mostly boost damage all together rather then doing multiple utilities. It grant damage reduction, allow for healing scan to be casted faster up to instant, does damage and increase damage done spread around multiple abilities. That's 4 things, not 9. Leap does 5 different things without the need to be spec into anything.

Charge

8 - 25 yd range

Instant 20 sec cooldown

Requires Warrior

Requires level 3

Charge to an enemy, stunning it and 2 additional nearby targets for 1 sec. Generates 20 Rage. (With blitz glyph)

Charge to an enemy, rooting it for 4 sec and reducing movement speed by 50% for 15 sec. Generates 20 Rage. (with warbinger glyph)

Charge to an enemy, rooting it and 2 additional nearby targets for 4 sec and reducing movement speed by 50% for 15 sec. Generates 20 Rage. (with both glyphs)

And again i remind you that BW tried to make leap like that : Leaps, generates rage and stuns. But with the crap resolve system, if 2 SW leap on 1 target, you were making him immune to all cc...If he was ball carrier, you were afraid to leap on him...

And then instead of stun it converted to what stun does , roots and interrupts.

The allready bad dmg it deals it can be removed for all i care....

I will be able to leap on cc'ed targets and score without breaking the cc with a stupid 1k dmg.

Its just not class that needs balance. Its the whole pvp zone that needs to be balanced by removing the premade/PUG combined WZs.

PvP only gets content every 10 months. It is almost 10 months now since the hypergate and we are getting arena. Guess what? We are not getting anything for the next 10 months again.

From my pov:

1. monkeys, straight out of zoo and braindead friendly, class with everything, mobility, utlitly and damage, dont want nerf i just want to see balance, if they have guarantted crit every 15 secs then i want one, very simple.

2. stealth, should be like in WHO, 30 sec duration or less and removed from any healing class.

3. knockback do not belong in any PvP game that already has large amount of cc going around, remove it, getting 4 .knockbacks (aka cant cast) and still get full duration of cc is retarded.

4.tanks in PvP is the dumb idea that every new MMO is trying to do, it fails every time.

5. remove conversion from wz to rwz commendations (only way to kill premades in random wz)

6. complete lack of balancing or any desire to balance out classes (this is the worst part), people whine about monkeys (for a reason) and yet nothing happens.

7. no cross servers, i mean, population is low anyway, either cross server or more options for f2p

etc etc

Arenas might save this game but it might kill it if number 6 keeps happening.

Leap and stun are OP because they do damage?!?!? They do like what 900 damage at most? that's nothing.\

Also taking the damage component out of hard stuns would be a buff for bads, because if they chucked it at a just mezzed guy it wouldn't break the mezz.

There is definitely something wrong with PvP.

And I can sum it up in one phrase: "Errors are too easily forgiven."

This game carries terrible players by the hand and leave the most common errors unpunished (Such as backpeddle force speed, letting your explosive probe get cleansed, taunting an healer, mezing a dotted target, etc.).

 

1. CC can be thrown around without care. Due to how the only CC breaker people have (aside from sage/sorc) is on a 2 minute CD (1:30 minute if speced) while everybody got plentora of hard stuns and mezs with NEARLY NO COOLDOWNS (Dirty kick for scoundrels/gunslinger can be dropped to THIRTY SECONDS CD. That's 3-4 stuns per CC breaker on ONE SPELL.). Roots arn't affected by anything and can be used an infinite amount of time without punishing the player for stacking or using it on someone who was rooted multiple time already since there is no DR/immunity mechanism tied to roots (aside from special spells like hold the line). Most of the slows, roots or hard stuns deals damage... making using a stun on an immune target almost unpunishing because of how it still do damage. (Force slow damage is retarded too high for a spell meant to slow. WHY?)

Solution: RESOLVE is a BROKEN MECHANISM and NEEDS TO BE FIXED. Roots requires a Diminishing Return!!! No matter how people saw WoW CC mechanisms, they had the right ideas for CC management.

 

2. Interrupts. I don't think I have to explain... everyone got an interrupt. There is only 1 way to avoid interrupt and is for combat medic/bodyguard under their reactive shield. Interrupts combined with the plentora of CCs makes it virtually impossible for someone to cast anything as soon as there is 2 people attacking him/her.

Solution: After using an interrupt, the target should become UNINTERRUPTABLE for 4 seconds even if the interrupt DIDN'T LAND ON A CAST. Punish thoses who miss their interrupt, interrupt a fake cast or interrupt a worthless ability.

 

3. Many spells do too many things at the same time... First thing that come to mind: Force leap. It's a gap closer, a root, a damage dealing ability, a rage builder AND an interrupt. That is BEFORE it get boosted by additional talent/set bonus. It can then become a 4 second immunity to CC and +10% damage done for a vigilance guardian. That's SEVEN things tied to ONE ability. It's way too much.

Solution: Remove the damage counterpart of all hard stuns (Except for stasis/choke), remove the interrupt and damage from force leap, remove or reduce the damage of most slows and roots.

 

4. Guard. The most passive bullsh*t ever made. Fine it take skills to use it to it's best capacity with guard swapping. But it doesn't require a brain to put guard on an healer and become an unkillable duo without ever swapping.

Solution: Make guard transfer 30% damage and add an active ability that increase that number to 50% for a certain amount of time with a CD on it. (6 seconds duration with 12 seconds CD?)

Edit: 40% passive and 60% active might be better numbers or 35% passive 50% active. Thoses can be tweaked, but right now, passive 50% involve no active gameplay when you tankbot an healer.

 

All of theses things is exactly why Scoundrels/Operatives healers are consider OP and not the other AC healers. Because they can heal with instants and over time making interrupt a non factor and they still heal while stunned while guard make them virtually invincible. Not because they heal too much or because they have too many escape. Scoundrels/Operatives are as easy to kill without guard if not easier then other healers. Fixing the interrupt problem would bring back sages/sorcs and commandos/mercs healers to the same level as scoundrels/operatives healers while the change to guard would bring them all to a level where they can be killed. As for every other classes, you would finally be punished for using your abilities without care.

If you think CC is bad in this game you should try playing WOW.

I actually think the CC system is one of the strongest aspects of this game. You have a standardized system that gives you visual feedback on when you can/can't and should/shouldn't CC. 100x better than WOW's DR system.

I think Guard will have to be tweaked a little to increase TTK, but they also need to nerf DPS specs in tank stance so that full tank specs still bring something to the table.

For all thoses saying removing the damage counterpart from some spells would make mez OP. How about making mez breaks on most hostile actions? Damage or not.

If you think CC is bad in this game you should try playing WOW.

 

I actually think the CC system is one of the strongest aspects of this game. You have a standardized system that gives you visual feedback on when you can/can't and should/shouldn't CC. 100x better than WOW's DR system.

 

I think Guard will have to be tweaked a little to increase TTK, but they also need to nerf DPS specs in tank stance so that full tank specs still bring something to the table.

I played wow for 5 years thank you. WoW CC management is far better then SWTOR. And NO the resolve system is terribad. It help terrible players by telling them: "Yes you can" or "No you can't". There is no need to follow what's happening in the fight, who's getting CCed, who's not. Since you have this white bar telling you yes or no. DR with no visual on CC immunity on the other hand FORCE you to WATCH for what is happening around you.

PvP is all about competivity and one should always aim to be as good as he can. You don't get good by having a bar telling you when you can CC. It reduce how skills affect gameplay and doesn't promote good plays.

End result: Skills goes down the list of what make you win in PvP and gear, class balance, etc. goes up the list.

Edit: Also, I wouldn't call that "Standardized". I would call that "Noobified".

Here is what I have to say. First there is a huge misconception about scoundrel/operative heals. We do casts, its just that we rely on stacks of upper hand to do so, and the max we can have at once time is 3. I hear a lot of people saying our heals are all instant, want to clear that up. We do have a lot of instant heals but at the most we should just add a little more control to how a scoundrel gets upper hand.

Second, a force leap isn't so debilitating. I go to warzones all the time, a guy force leaps me, I pop electronet and use my pushback, then the guy has practically nothing he can do to me as he wasted his gap closer.

Third, I do agree that there are a lot of people with no clue how to pvp correctly but to be fair, Bioware has to hold theier hands as you said because they are PAYING CUSTOMERS. It makes sense to make it easy enough for them to make a system easy for terrible players to play, its good business, we can't alienate them. Besides a lot of us when we started playing mmos or videogames in general weren't good when we started, lord knows I came into this game blind ( I had no idea what stats meant at all or why leveling was important and barely knew a thing about pvp other than it involved players) but I learned and now I am one of my guilds best pvpers and am covered in ranked gear thanks to a lot of hard work to farm the ranked comms I needed. I know I hate getting people in warzones myself but the enemy team gets bad players too so it roughly balanced out.

Lastly resolve does its job. I belive in doing cc a few times but at the same time don't want it unlimited, so I think resolve at the most only needs a little improvement.

Lastly, looking at commando/merc healers, WE ARE NOT FINE! IF ANYTHING COMMANDO HEALS NEEDS A BUFF, WE ARE THE WORST HEALING CLASS EVER THANKS TO SO MANY COMPLAINTS EARLY ON IN THIS GAME BY PEOPLE WHO WERE BAD AND WANTED EVERYONE ELSE TO BE BAD TOO!

For all thoses saying removing the damage counterpart from some spells would make mez OP. How about making mez breaks on most hostile actions? Damage or not.

 

 

I played wow for 5 years thank you. WoW CC management is far better then SWTOR. And NO the resolve system is terribad. It help terrible players by telling them: "Yes you can" or "No you can't". There is no need to follow what's happening in the fight, who's getting CCed, who's not. Since you have this white bar telling you yes or no. DR with no visual on CC immunity on the other hand FORCE you to WATCH for what is happening around you.

PvP is all about competivity and one should always aim to be as good as he can. You don't get good by having a bar telling you when you can CC. It reduce how skills affect gameplay and doesn't promote good plays.

End result: Skills goes down the list of what make you win in PvP and gear, class balance, etc. goes up the list.

 

Edit: Also, I wouldn't call that "Standardized". I would call that "Noobified".

No, resolve itself is a great idea, it is just implemented poorly. Especially after the changes made in 1.4

There is definitely something wrong with PvP.

And I can sum it up in one phrase: "Errors are too easily forgiven."

This game carries terrible players by the hand and leave the most common errors unpunished (Such as backpeddle force speed, letting your explosive probe get cleansed, taunting an healer, mezing a dotted target, etc.).

 

1. CC can be thrown around without care. Due to how the only CC breaker people have (aside from sage/sorc) is on a 2 minute CD (1:30 minute if speced) while everybody got plentora of hard stuns and mezs with NEARLY NO COOLDOWNS (Dirty kick for scoundrels/gunslinger can be dropped to THIRTY SECONDS CD. That's 3-4 stuns per CC breaker on ONE SPELL.). Roots arn't affected by anything and can be used an infinite amount of time without punishing the player for stacking or using it on someone who was rooted multiple time already since there is no DR/immunity mechanism tied to roots (aside from special spells like hold the line). Most of the slows, roots or hard stuns deals damage... making using a stun on an immune target almost unpunishing because of how it still do damage. (Force slow damage is retarded too high for a spell meant to slow. WHY?)

Solution: RESOLVE is a BROKEN MECHANISM and NEEDS TO BE FIXED. Roots requires a Diminishing Return!!! No matter how people saw WoW CC mechanisms, they had the right ideas for CC management.

 

2. Interrupts. I don't think I have to explain... everyone got an interrupt. There is only 1 way to avoid interrupt and is for combat medic/bodyguard under their reactive shield. Interrupts combined with the plentora of CCs makes it virtually impossible for someone to cast anything as soon as there is 2 people attacking him/her.

Solution: After using an interrupt, the target should become UNINTERRUPTABLE for 4 seconds even if the interrupt DIDN'T LAND ON A CAST. Punish thoses who miss their interrupt, interrupt a fake cast or interrupt a worthless ability.

 

3. Many spells do too many things at the same time... First thing that come to mind: Force leap. It's a gap closer, a root, a damage dealing ability, a rage builder AND an interrupt. That is BEFORE it get boosted by additional talent/set bonus. It can then become a 4 second immunity to CC and +10% damage done for a vigilance guardian. That's SEVEN things tied to ONE ability. It's way too much.

Solution: Remove the damage counterpart of all hard stuns (Except for stasis/choke), remove the interrupt and damage from force leap, remove or reduce the damage of most slows and roots.

 

4. Guard. The most passive bullsh*t ever made. Fine it take skills to use it to it's best capacity with guard swapping. But it doesn't require a brain to put guard on an healer and become an unkillable duo without ever swapping.

Solution: Make guard transfer 30% damage and add an active ability that increase that number to 50% for a certain amount of time with a CD on it. (6 seconds duration with 12 seconds CD?)

Edit: 40% passive and 60% active might be better numbers or 35% passive 50% active. Thoses can be tweaked, but right now, passive 50% involve no active gameplay when you tankbot an healer.

 

All of theses things is exactly why Scoundrels/Operatives healers are consider OP and not the other AC healers. Because they can heal with instants and over time making interrupt a non factor and they still heal while stunned while guard make them virtually invincible. Not because they heal too much or because they have too many escape. Scoundrels/Operatives are as easy to kill without guard if not easier then other healers. Fixing the interrupt problem would bring back sages/sorcs and commandos/mercs healers to the same level as scoundrels/operatives healers while the change to guard would bring them all to a level where they can be killed. As for every other classes, you would finally be punished for using your abilities without care.

I agree with all this stuff except for guard. Tanks are already kinda pointless in a variety of scenarios and you only take one into a rated. There's no reason to nerf tanks as they aren't responsible for the recent TTK problems - massive sweeping boosts to hp, healing, and survivability with not much increase in dps is what's responsible for it.

If you think CC is bad in this game you should try playing WOW.

 

I actually think the CC system is one of the strongest aspects of this game. You have a standardized system that gives you visual feedback on when you can/can't and should/shouldn't CC. 100x better than WOW's DR system.

 

I think Guard will have to be tweaked a little to increase TTK, but they also need to nerf DPS specs in tank stance so that full tank specs still bring something to the table.

Guard is fine, but the dps in tank stance definitely needs a nerf

I agree with all this stuff except for guard. Tanks are already kinda pointless in a variety of scenarios and you only take one into a rated. There's no reason to nerf tanks as they aren't responsible for the recent TTK problems - massive sweeping boosts to hp, healing, and survivability with not much increase in dps is what's responsible for it.

Are we playing the same game? I don't think we are. That or you have actually never pvp'd before.

No, resolve itself is a great idea, it is just implemented poorly. Especially after the changes made in 1.4

Resolve is a Noobified CC mechanism. It's made retarded easy to manage CC with a green/red light concept.

When it's green (Not full) you can CC. When it's red (Full) you can't.

Change the mechanism to a DR one and now you'll have to actually watch the screen and see what your allies are doing instead to know if you can CC or not and how effective it will be.

For whoever said as an argument that they do it this way to keep bad players playing. Well here's a solution: Cross-server queues and hidden personnal normal rating.

Make it like LoL and put an hidden rating to people when they do normal warzones at level 55 and make them face their rating level. With cross-server queues you would have plenty of people to mix.

I agree with all this stuff except for guard. Tanks are already kinda pointless in a variety of scenarios and you only take one into a rated. There's no reason to nerf tanks as they aren't responsible for the recent TTK problems - massive sweeping boosts to hp, healing, and survivability with not much increase in dps is what's responsible for it.

My point with a change to guard isn't to nerf the tanks. If you look at my edit, it would actually benefit good tank players while punishing bad players by making guard have a more active role.

Here's how I'd love to see guard made into:

Guard: Reduce damage taken by 5% and threat generated by 25%. Transfer 35% of players damage to the tank. Additionally, applying or swapping guard to another ally reset the cooldown on Protect. 4 seconds cooldown.

New ability: Protect: Increase guard's transfer amount by 25% (60% total) for 4 seconds. 8 seconds cooldown. This ability doesn't respect the global cooldown.

My point with a change to guard isn't to nerf the tanks. If you look at my edit, it would actually benefit good tank players while punishing bad players by making guard have a more active role.

 

Here's how I'd love to see guard made into:

Guard: Reduce damage taken by 5% and threat generated by 25%. Transfer 35% of players damage to the tank. Additionally, applying or swapping guard to another ally reset the cooldown on Protect. 4 seconds cooldown.

New ability: Protect: Increase guard's transfer amount by 25% (60% total) for 4 seconds. 8 seconds cooldown. This ability doesn't respect the global cooldown.

I doubt they would ever make this change, but it would be pretty amazing if they did. Would you have this protect ability baseline or would it be high up in the tanking trees tacted onto another talent (pvp only)? or would it just require defensive stance?

Sadly this would probably be too much of a change for the development team. If you look at changes from the past, they don't really look to increase skill cap and seperate the levels of players much. Not that it would be hard at all to just hit an ability off global as long as it had a simple animation, so it doesn't animation bug like most abilities tend to if you don't spam them that are off global.

The other concern with making tanking harder is that as the next patch hits, tanks are going to be needed a lot more. Ranked you need 1 tank in a team of 8? Arenas you need 1 tank in a team of 4. I'm all for increasing skill cap where ever you can, but I don't think the devs are stupid. They have to realize that the majority of the tanking population don't even guard swap. lol

Resolve is a Noobified CC mechanism. It's made retarded easy to manage CC with a green/red light concept.

When it's green (Not full) you can CC. When it's red (Full) you can't.

 

Change the mechanism to a DR one and now you'll have to actually watch the screen and see what your allies are doing instead to know if you can CC or not and how effective it will be.

 

For whoever said as an argument that they do it this way to keep bad players playing. Well here's a solution: Cross-server queues and hidden personnal normal rating.

Make it like LoL and put an hidden rating to people when they do normal warzones at level 55 and make them face their rating level. With cross-server queues you would have plenty of people to mix.

I'm not against a DR system, but I also think yours and Legatus argument is both silly and void since there are dozens of WoW addons that allow you to put a visual aid on the screen for the DR rates and there is nothing wrong with doing that either. There is nothing "noobified" about the resolve mechanic itself. It's implemented poorly but the design itself is a good idea and in some aspects is better than a DR system.

I played wow for 5 years thank you. WoW CC management is far better then SWTOR.

The problem is SWToR would have to create DR categories and then assign each "CC" ability to a category. Remember in WoW not all CCs are upon the same DR. For example Sap was not upon the stun DR, it shared with things like Mez. In SWToR they are all thrown into one pot and that would never work with a DR system.

You don't get good by having a bar telling you when you can CC

Are you sure you played WoW because there were entire UI mods designed around keeping track of DRs and cool down for your opponents. The resolve bar is far less help then what one could use in WoW.

Are you sure you played WoW because there were entire UI mods designed around keeping track of DRs and cool down for your opponents. The resolve bar is far less help then what one could use in WoW.

The UI mods wasn't White = CC, not white = don't CC.

You still had to take in consideration DR, which stuns would hit which DRs and so on. Here it's all the stuns in the same bar and it's green/red light.

I'm not against a DR system, but I also think yours and Legatus argument is both silly and void since there are dozens of WoW addons that allow you to put a visual aid on the screen for the DR rates and there is nothing wrong with doing that either. There is nothing "noobified" about the resolve mechanic itself. It's implemented poorly but the design itself is a good idea and in some aspects is better than a DR system.

I never commented on resolve Couldn't really care less how resolve works as it mostly affects everyone equally.

All I commented on is that people are calling for guard nerfs which is retarded. Looking at the typical composition of most teams and the number of tanks taken is enough evidence of that.

Are we playing the same game? I don't think we are. That or you have actually never pvp'd before.

Idk are we? I gave nothing but facts, nobody even knows what you're arguing with. Acting like I never pvp'd before won't get you very far in this debate, and I've certainly never seen any proof that you pvp.

I agree with all this stuff except for guard. Tanks are already kinda pointless in a variety of scenarios and you only take one into a rated. There's no reason to nerf tanks as they aren't responsible for the recent TTK problems - massive sweeping boosts to hp, healing, and survivability with not much increase in dps is what's responsible for it.

Feel free to indicate what part of that post is inaccurate. Again those are all facts, though I did forget to mention the crit chance nerf which is another reason TTK went up in 2.0 without guard/taunt mechanics changing at all.

guard is needed by tanks to help them be tanks. the whole point is to be able to take a lot of damage and protect other players from it. 50% of damage goes back to the tank who placed the guard so I don't see the problem. Anyway just take the healer or tank and get them a distance from each other. After 15 meters distance I believe guard is innefective. Seriously a lot of guys just give up instead of adapting. Example, about a year ago I believe "oh mi god pyrotech is too powerful!" "like ohmigod we have no idea how to fight a good dps at all, nerf pyrotechs!" "ohmigod nerf range with it so we can start making powertech pyrotechs closer to melee even though they were meant to be ranged class to begin with", and a few months later "you idiots just had my pyrotech nerfed to the ground its useless now!" so a bunch of rants later followed by a guy screwed over by the guys who had no idea how to take a dps down who pressured Bioware into destroying pyrotechs for so long.

One more I PERSONALLY AM SUFFERING FOR. "ohmigod commando heals are too good" "ohmigod they are like healing tanks" "ohmigod I am so bad I am just going to complain until Bioware ruins them and makes them not only easier to kill but a good laugh for the enemy team at the end of warzones when they see his stats", later, commando heals suffer a lot of damage, resulting in us being called almost every day for a long time innefective and considered bad for pvp healing. Now everyone prefers a sage or scoundrel over us, I have adapted, but my numbers are not the same as before.