I'm sorry if this is something that has been discussed before, but I haven't seen it on these forums or googlesearches.

When watching the scene from SW6, when Luke enter Jabbas throneroom to negotiate for cpt Solo; is Luke under dark side influences?

Youtube link to the scene:

*He use forcechoke on the guards.

*He use forcepersuade on Fortuna. While being used by the jedi, I thought this was only as a last resort, not in a situation like this.

*He tell Jabba to (not accurate quote) "Hand him solo or be destroyed"

*He wear black (sure, it's just a color, but it seems to be attributed to people in the SW movies who follow the dark path or are about to cross the line)

*When threatened, he levitate a pistol to his hand, about to aim at Jabba. Not sure if he mean to shoot or just threaten.

Is this just an act he is playing to free Solo?

I'm a SW fan, but I don't know all the facts behind the scenes, nor the complete lore. If some SW scholar out there could enlighten me on this, I'd be grateful.

A Jedi can use dark side powers without getting corrupted. Kyle Katarn from Jedi Knight 2 Jedi Outcast, you'd use dark side power with him and he never fell to the dark side, he also explains it in the sequel.

Luke wasn't threatening Jabba, he knew it would happen, I don't think he would of shot either otherwise why would he need R2 to carry his lightsaber? I think he always planned something like this.

Mace Windu used a lightsaber form in which he channels his anger and hate into it, with that style others would fall to the dark side but Windu didn't so I believe that, to an extent a jedi can use certain dark side powers or emotions, if they are strong enough to control it.

luke was just being a ****** and using his abilities in a way that would work to his advantage.

also remember luke isn't an old republic jedi.

silly rules about when or how to use force persuade? nope! he does it whenever he feels it'd help him.

force choke? why not? sure its a jerk thing to do to someone, not any worse than chopping the dude up is it?

luke also carries a blaster pistol with him in addition to his lightsaber when old jedi only had lightsabers. why? cus luke was smart enough to see the advantages of having a ranged weapon cus he's not an idiot following unnecessary traditions. was he riding the line at times? sure, but he was never full blown darkside, not till a book i think.

hell luke was a bigger ****** in that one scene you linked than all the jedi in the prequels put together.

*He use forcechoke on the guards.

*He use forcepersuade on Fortuna. While being used by the jedi, I thought this was only as a last resort, not in a situation like this.

*He tell Jabba to (not accurate quote) "Hand him solo or be destroyed"

*He wear black (sure, it's just a color, but it seems to be attributed to people in the SW movies who follow the dark path or are about to cross the line)

*When threatened, he levitate a pistol to his hand, about to aim at Jabba. Not sure if he mean to shoot or just threaten.

Force choke was the non-lethal option - he could have just killed them. that's what a sith or dark jedi would have done

He tried not using the force, but his powers of "normal" persuasion are obviously lacking Again it was the least lethal option; a sith or dark jedi would have torn his head off and thrown it at Jabba

Wearing black made him appear more threatening than he really was. Probably a tactical decision nothing more.

What else was he supposed to do? just stand there and be captured. Then Jabba would KNOW something was up and probably would have killed him right there instead of "panicking" and hitting the Rancor pit button.

also, the entire thing about return of the jedi was about luke sorta almost turning darkside.

i find it really odd you're bringing up a pretty minor bit in jabbas palace. but not the part where luke FREAKS OUT and rage attacks vader at the end. beating him into submission out of pure anger, hatred and rage. then you get that powerful moment where luke looks at his robotic hand and realizes he's turning into his father, so he stops himself.

did you miss that scene or something? pay attention next time....

also remember luke isn't an old republic jedi.

That has nothing to do with it. The Jedi base their rules upon what will cause people to fall to the dark side, and what won't. Using force persuade on people as a first option is one of those things. Luke even says as much in some of the EU books.

That has nothing to do with it. The Jedi base their rules upon what will cause people to fall to the dark side, and what won't. Using force persuade on people as a first option is one of those things. Luke even says as much in some of the EU books.

major theme of RotJ was luke almost becoming is father. and falling to the darkside.

did anyone else actually watch the movie?

A Jedi can use dark side powers without getting corrupted. Kyle Katarn from Jedi Knight 2 Jedi Outcast, you'd use dark side power with him and he never fell to the dark side, he also explains it in the sequel.

 

Luke wasn't threatening Jabba, he knew it would happen, I don't think he would of shot either otherwise why would he need R2 to carry his lightsaber? I think he always planned something like this.

 

Mace Windu used a lightsaber form in which he channels his anger and hate into it, with that style others would fall to the dark side but Windu didn't so I believe that, to an extent a jedi can use certain dark side powers or emotions, if they are strong enough to control it.

This isn't true. Luke, during ROTJ, was on the same path as his father throughout much of the movie. When he starts to give into his hatred and cuts off Vader's hand he realizes this. He looks to his own hand and realizes that he's on the same path as his father. Instead, he gets up, and refuses to give him and tosses his lightsaber away. Finally becoming a true Jedi.

The quote in Jedi Knight Jedi Academy isn't Canon and Luke never taught Dark Side abilities at his academy nor encouraged their use.

the key is you have to remember this was LONG before they ever made the video games or the table top RPG so there was no such thing as Dark side and Light side force powers.

They only had THE FORCE and how you used it.

This isn't true. Luke, during ROTJ, was on the same path as his father throughout much of the movie. When he starts to give into his hatred and cuts off Vader's hand he realizes this. He looks to his own hand and realizes that he's on the same path as his father. Instead, he gets up, and refuses to give him and tosses his lightsaber away. Finally becoming a true Jedi.

 

The quote in Jedi Knight Jedi Academy isn't Canon and Luke never taught Dark Side abilities at his academy nor encouraged their use.

not at all. Not once in all of the original Trilogy is Luke ever interested in power. In the cave on Degobah Luke doesn't kill the Vader illusion out of thirst for power or revenge he does it out of fear. Anakin however is ONLY concerned with power. Luke was never on the path to the darkside.

not at all. Not once in all of the original Trilogy is Luke ever interested in power. In the cave on Degobah Luke doesn't kill the Vader illusion out of thirst for power or revenge he does it out of fear. Anakin however is ONLY concerned with power. Luke was never on the path to the darkside.

Fear is on the path of the dark side. Yoda says as much. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Anakin became interested in power to protect the ones he loved. That was the original catalyst. Luke feared for his friends safety and was willing to do anything in his power to protect them. Anakin was afraid of losing his mother. Afraid of losing Padme. Luke was afraid of losing his friends. Afraid of losing his sister. It's actually which spurs him to rage. When Vader is trying to get him out of hiding he uses Luke's feelings for his sister against him. This strikes home and sends Luke into a rage.

Fear is on the path of the dark side. Yoda says as much. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Anakin became interested in power to protect the ones he loved. That was the original catalyst. Luke feared for his friends safety and was willing to do anything in his power to protect them. Anakin was afraid of losing his mother. Afraid of losing Padme. Luke was afraid of losing his friends. Afraid of losing his sister. It's actually which spurs him to rage. When Vader is trying to get him out of hiding he uses Luke's feelings for his sister against him. This strikes home and sends Luke into a rage.

not at all. Anakin's true path to the darkside was all about becoming more powerful. He talks about it a lot in the Prequels about how he wants to become the most powerful jedi, how everyone is jelous of his power, how he desreves to be a Master Jedi so on and so on.

In fact remember at the very beginning of Attack of the Clones when he is raging against Obi Wan? He isn't afraid of losing anyone there he feels that Obi Wan is holding him back of getting more power. He even tells Padme this.

There are only 3 times when Luke is really afraid. At this point there was no one that he was afraid of losing he was just power hungry.

1. In the Cave.

2. When he is fighting Vader and loses his hand.... although that doesn' t seem as much fear as it is just a feeling of betrayal.

3. on the Death Star

When he uses Force choke he is calm and not afraid at all. In fact he is clearly not even on the path to the dark side at that point. He even talks to yoda just after that how he has learned so much since the cave and is still clearly on the path of light.

not at all. Anakin's true path to the darkside was all about becoming more powerful. He talks about it a lot in the Prequels about how he wants to become the most powerful jedi, how everyone is jelous of his power, how he desreves to be a Master Jedi so on and so on.

 

In fact remember at the very beginning of Attack of the Clones when he is raging against Obi Wan? He isn't afraid of losing anyone there he feels that Obi Wan is holding him back of getting more power. He even tells Padme this.

There are only 3 times when Luke is really afraid. At this point there was no one that he was afraid of losing he was just power hungry.

 

1. In the Cave.

 

2. When he is fighting Vader and loses his hand.... although that doesn' t seem as much fear as it is just a feeling of betrayal.

 

3. on the Death Star

 

When he uses Force choke he is calm and not afraid at all. In fact he is clearly not even on the path to the dark side at that point. He even talks to yoda just after that how he has learned so much since the cave and is still clearly on the path of light.

When I claimed he was going down his father's path I was referring to the dark side itself. Fear leads to the dark side. He ran off without finishing his training because he feared for his friends. In the cave he reacted out of fear. Yes he claimed he's learned much since the cave but that wasn't enough to be considered a Jedi. To be a full Jedi he had to confront Vader once again. In his confrontation with Vader he truly confronted his fear. He defeated Vader and tossed his weapon aside. That was when he truly became a Jedi. That was when he truly mastered his fear.

Just because someone appears calm doesn't mean they are. Luke seems confident in the throne room but begins to look worried when Sidious explains that he knew his friends were going to attack. That the death star is operational and that soon they'll be dead. He keeps glancing at his saber and looking away. Sidious even claims that he can feel the hatred swelling within him. Luke had not yet mastered how to control his emotions. Eventually he takes his saber with the use of the force and tries to strike Sidious down.

Later he runs and hides from Vader. This is another sign of fear. Another sign that he had not yet let it go. Vader used his emotions in regards to his sister to draw him out. He knew that would effect him. Luke reacts to this out of fear.. that quickly turns to anger. As Yoda said.. fear leads to anger and anger leads to.. Vader is down. Luke repeatedly kept striking at him until he chopped off his hand.

There he sees Vader's hand, much like his own, is machine and realizes where his fear was taking him. Instead, he finally takes both Yoda and Ben's advice. He lets go of his hate. By being able to let go of his hate and fear he is able to trust in the force. By trusting in the force he has mastered his emotions. He has truly become a Jedi Knight. A Jedi isn't a warrior. A Jedi is a servant of the force. A guardian of peace and justice. Instead of giving into his hate he tosses his weapon aside.

Fear is on the path of the dark side. Yoda says as much. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Anakin became interested in power to protect the ones he loved. That was the original catalyst. Luke feared for his friends safety and was willing to do anything in his power to protect them. Anakin was afraid of losing his mother. Afraid of losing Padme. Luke was afraid of losing his friends. Afraid of losing his sister. It's actually which spurs him to rage. When Vader is trying to get him out of hiding he uses Luke's feelings for his sister against him. This strikes home and sends Luke into a rage.

don't mean to blatantly steal from redlettermedia, but couldnt anger lead to fear, and hate lead to anger, and suffering lead to hate? theres no order of logic with interchangeable emotions.

this shows a MASSIVE writing mistake when it comes to yoda. instead of being wise, he comes off as really stupid.

The Dark Side has many paths. Fear, anger, hate all lead to it. Even if Luke had it all planned out when he went to Jabba's, and no matter how calm he appeared, that fear of losing his friends was still there. RotJ was/is (however you want to look at it) a mirror for RotS, which showed Anakin's fall, spurred on by his roiling emotions, which makes the end of RotJ all the more powerful.

Anakin grew up knowing and believing he was the prophesied bringer of balance, giving him delusions of grandeur, coupled with his extreme fear of losing his loved ones, sending him on a quest for power and spiraling toward the Dark Side.

When I claimed he was going down his father's path I was referring to the dark side itself. Fear leads to the dark side. He ran off without finishing his training because he feared for his friends. In the cave he reacted out of fear. Yes he claimed he's learned much since the cave but that wasn't enough to be considered a Jedi. To be a full Jedi he had to confront Vader once again. In his confrontation with Vader he truly confronted his fear. He defeated Vader and tossed his weapon aside. That was when he truly became a Jedi. That was when he truly mastered his fear.

 

Just because someone appears calm doesn't mean they are. Luke seems confident in the throne room but begins to look worried when Sidious explains that he knew his friends were going to attack. That the death star is operational and that soon they'll be dead. He keeps glancing at his saber and looking away. Sidious even claims that he can feel the hatred swelling within him. Luke had not yet mastered how to control his emotions. Eventually he takes his saber with the use of the force and tries to strike Sidious down.

 

Later he runs and hides from Vader. This is another sign of fear. Another sign that he had not yet let it go. Vader used his emotions in regards to his sister to draw him out. He knew that would effect him. Luke reacts to this out of fear.. that quickly turns to anger. As Yoda said.. fear leads to anger and anger leads to.. Vader is down. Luke repeatedly kept striking at him until he chopped off his hand.

 

There he sees Vader's hand, much like his own, is machine and realizes where his fear was taking him. Instead, he finally takes both Yoda and Ben's advice. He lets go of his hate. By being able to let go of his hate and fear he is able to trust in the force. By trusting in the force he has mastered his emotions. He has truly become a Jedi Knight. A Jedi isn't a warrior. A Jedi is a servant of the force. A guardian of peace and justice. Instead of giving into his hate he tosses his weapon aside.

you are missing the bigger point. I'm not arguing that he was afraid when he was on the death star at the end. I am saying during the entire rest of RotJ he is not on the path to the dark side.

During the entire Jaba's palace scenes he has nothing to be afraid of. Espeically when he uses Force choke. This is because back when it was made there was no light or dark side abilities that all came after the movies when they started making the video games and the table top RPGs.

Its back tracking just like how people have tried to explain how the Milienium Falcon can make the kessel run in less then 5 parsecs when a parsec is a measurment of distance not time.

don't mean to blatantly steal from redlettermedia, but couldnt anger lead to fear, and hate lead to anger, and suffering lead to hate? theres no order of logic with interchangeable emotions.

 

this shows a MASSIVE writing mistake when it comes to yoda. instead of being wise, he comes off as really stupid.

He never stated that's the only path and that fear is the only way to lead to hate/suffering. He was explaining why fear is bad.

don't mean to blatantly steal from redlettermedia, but couldnt anger lead to fear, and hate lead to anger, and suffering lead to hate? theres no order of logic with interchangeable emotions.

 

this shows a MASSIVE writing mistake when it comes to yoda. instead of being wise, he comes off as really stupid.

We hate what we fear, and we can't hate something with being angry about it. The more you fear it, the more you hate it, the angrier you become and the more you hate it. The Dark Side would have you strike out against it, to destroy it while the Light Side would have you accept it and let it go, gaining peace.

The Dark Side has many paths. Fear, anger, hate all lead to it. Even if Luke had it all planned out when he went to Jabba's, and no matter how calm he appeared, that fear of losing his friends was still there. RotJ was/is (however you want to look at it) a mirror for RotS, which showed Anakin's fall, spurred on by his roiling emotions, which makes the end of RotJ all the more powerful.

 

Anakin grew up knowing and believing he was the prophesied bringer of balance, giving him delusions of grandeur, coupled with his extreme fear of losing his loved ones, sending him on a quest for power and spiraling toward the Dark Side.

Well all the movies are mirrors of one another really.

EP 1: The sith emerge, and start planning out their attack on the galaxy. A jedi master dies(Qui-gon) who the apprentice(Obi-Wan) looked to for guidance.

EP 4: The jedi come out of hiding, and help to save the galaxy. A jedi master dies(Obi-Wan) who the apprentice(Luke) looked to for guidance.

------

EP 2: Clone Wars begin, the CIS lose Geonosis(like the Rebels lost the battle of Hoth), a duel is there and Anakin gets a limb cut off.

EP 5: The GCW is going on, Rebels lose Hoth. A duel happens, and Luke gets a limb cut off.

--------

EP 3: The Clone Wars come to a close, the jedi are all wiped out, and the Empire controls the galaxy.

EP 6: The GCW comes to a close, the sith are wiped out, and the Rebellion frees the galaxy.

I thought it was rather neat, when I first figured it out!

you are missing the bigger point. I'm not arguing that he was afraid when he was on the death star at the end. I am saying during the entire rest of RotJ he is not on the path to the dark side.

 

During the entire Jaba's palace scenes he has nothing to be afraid of. Espeically when he uses Force choke. This is because back when it was made there was no light or dark side abilities that all came after the movies when they started making the video games and the table top RPGs.

 

Its back tracking just like how people have tried to explain how the Milienium Falcon can make the kessel run in less then 5 parsecs when a parsec is a measurment of distance not time.

The Millenium Falcon bit was explained by Lucas himself in the commentary. As for the choking thing.. I didn't bring it up. The post I quoted referred to it but I simply claimed throughout much of the movie he was on the same path as his father. This is true. He had not yet mastered his emotions and most of his decisions in the end were based off fear.

Truthfully he shouldn't have left his training. His training was more important than what his friends were up to and doing. His friends were a small drop in the bucket on galactic affairs but his attachment to them and his fear of losing him constantly put his life at risk when the entire galaxy was suffering. One could argue, however, in the end he made the right call as his love for his friends also helped end the conflict but that's still an opinion more than anything else. What we do know of is that he hadn't mastered his emotions up until that final moment in ROTJ. In the end, it doesn't matter. Force Choke has been shown even by Lucas to be something "Dark." even if it wasn't originally intended to be.

Well all the movies are mirrors of one another really.

 

EP 1: The sith emerge, and start planning out their attack on the galaxy. A jedi master dies(Qui-gon) who the apprentice(Obi-Wan) looked to for guidance.

 

EP 4: The jedi come out of hiding, and help to save the galaxy. A jedi master dies(Obi-Wan) who the apprentice(Luke) looked to for guidance.

------

 

EP 2: Clone Wars begin, the CIS lose Geonosis(like the Rebels lost the battle of Hoth), a duel is there and Anakin gets a limb cut off.

 

EP 5: The GCW is going on, Rebels lose Hoth. A duel happens, and Luke gets a limb cut off.

--------

 

EP 3: The Clone Wars come to a close, the jedi are all wiped out, and the Empire controls the galaxy.

 

EP 6: The GCW comes to a close, the sith are wiped out, and the Rebellion frees the galaxy.

 

I thought it was rather neat, when I first figured it out!

Indeed. The over-arching story was really laid out well. In the end, I feel Palpatine did much more to balance the Force than Anakin, in that through his machinations both sides were pretty much set to 0 and had to start over, with the Jedi vastly coming out on top with new ways of thinking and acting. The Old Republic Jedi were too set in tradition to see the threat that was right in front of them, arguably the most powerful Dark Lord ever. The Jedi and Sith were too far at the polar extremes, with both sides blind to the necessity of balancing between the light and dark.

Indeed. The over-arching story was really laid out well. In the end, I feel Palpatine did much more to balance the Force than Anakin, in that through his machinations both sides were pretty much set to 0 and had to start over, with the Jedi vastly coming out on top with new ways of thinking and acting. The Old Republic Jedi were too set in tradition to see the threat that was right in front of them, arguably the most powerful Dark Lord ever. The Jedi and Sith were too far at the polar extremes, with both sides blind to the necessity of balancing between the light and dark.

Balance was destruction of the Sith. This is confirmed. The number of Jedi/Sith is irrelevant. Balancing Light/Dark also irrelevant.

Balance was destruction of the Sith. This is confirmed. The number of Jedi/Sith is irrelevant. Balancing Light/Dark also irrelevant.

I think that was the interpretation the Jedi assumed was correct, but I feel that is wrong. You can't balance something by only getting of one side of the equation. That merely serves to unbalance it further. Both sides, Jedi and Sith, had gotten to the extremes of the ideology, and most of the major conflicts in the galaxy arose from them warring with each other. The Force could only be brought back into balance with both sides being "reset", at least IMHO.

I think that was the interpretation the Jedi assumed was correct, but I feel that is wrong. You can't balance something by only getting of one side of the equation. That merely serves to unbalance it further. Both sides, Jedi and Sith, had gotten to the extremes of the ideology, and most of the major conflicts in the galaxy arose from them warring with each other. The Force could only be brought back into balance with both sides being "reset", at least IMHO.

"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt.

There's the rise of the Sith, who are becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this we have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic...

Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. And it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with.

And then we will get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the dark side..

Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

GL on Balance.

Balance = Destruction of the Sith.