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Why not try to help PUGs?


georgemattson

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So I can't find the thread, but I recall someone posted a question as to the best PvP match people had played. I've had a few, but my memory is bad enough that I rypically can't really recall enough details for a good story.

 

However... I just had what was one of my better PvP matches. Not because it was down to the wire or because we did spectacularly well, but I was in a Novarre Coast match with a bunch of other Republic PUGs that we managed to turn around from a pretty bad start.

 

Seeing as I tend not to trust other people to guard nodes, I headed east and set up to guard. Three other pubs came with me, and I mentioned that we didn't need four guards, but by the time they got the point, we were down 100%-70%. I asked the other two if they would guard and call incoming, so I could head south, and no response. Finally, one asked, "call incoming?" Not a great sign, but about that time they decided to head west. Another player complained about the group heading all the map again, and maybe it was the past two nights of "YOU GUYS ALL SUCK!" that I'd been reading in WZ chat, but I got tired of it and decided to give direction.

 

First, I pointed out that splitting our forces south and west would guarantee a loss. Then I asked everyone to zerg south. And you know what? Everyone listened! One guy came up to guard with me (I'm a lvl 15 sent, so rather squishy), but then headed west. I asked him to stop and head south, and he did. Eventually, we took south, and at 100% to 24%, we had two nodes. I asked everyone to forget west and hold south and east, called out incoming a few times after that (and each time, people came to help and we kept the node). At one point, the other team zerged east and one of the other players told everyone to "keep 2 south, everyone else east." And sure enough, we all did. The node was almost taken, but that's it; almost.

 

In the end, it was a marvel of cooperation and although I sucked (as I usually do), everyone worked together, as a team, and everyone listened to directions.

 

I know it's fashionable to bash noobs, tell everyone how much we all suck (and yeah, some of us definitely do), but we were all noobs once and we can actually get better. Screaming at everybody that they all suck and need to get better isn't going to do it, though.

Edited by georgemattson
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I don't mind helping but sometimes people respond negatively when you try to give direction. As was pointed out in a post I read earlier, when someone suggested something to someone to help the team the response given back was "Do you pay my sub?" You can't help people with that attitude.

 

I do offer suggestions every now and then or because my main is my Shadow I'll let people know I'm going to guard a specific node and I'll call incoming if I need help. But I can't control the 2 "War Zone Heroes" who want to chase enemy players all over the map lol. And it happens quite a bit.

 

In the end if you PUG you can only hope that you get a good group of people who understand their roles and listen or give good advice or that you get on a pretty good pre-made team.

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Funny you should mention that. Since the time I posted this thread originally, I played another match and got two people who completely met that description. Kept spewing out the **** comments, called me a stupid b***h (I'm actually a guy, and this is my first female toon; wanted a different sent, as this is my fourth), etc. Definitely pretty nasty.

 

Ah well... we were getting our butts well and truly kicked until I started calling out instructions, but the rest of the group listened and we turned things around and won afterward.

 

Added both of those guys to the ignore list. Would be nice if that meant I'd never queue for PvP with them again.

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You know... what's funny is that I don't know you from Adam but I can pretty much guarantee you're probably a LOT better than me in PvP, so coming from the point of view of one of those people someone like you could potentially teach in that ten minute time period, I can tell you that some of us do listen. I didn't get better at winning warzones from reading the forums. I got better by listening to people telling me to stay on node, hit the ball carrier, attack the healer, etc. Heck, when I first started, I had no clue who the healers were, had no idea what the target markers meant, and the only thing I knew to do was go attack whoever had the lowest health bar on the other side.

 

I still suck with my rotation, can't play my class a tenth as well as the typical 12-year old player (I'm 46 and have the reflexes of a 96-year old man), but I do at least know how to play as a team member.

 

I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of other players like me out there.

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I don't mind helping but sometimes people respond negatively when you try to give direction. As was pointed out in a post I read earlier, when someone suggested something to someone to help the team the response given back was "Do you pay my sub?" You can't help people with that attitude.

 

Right. Many pugs cannot be helped, because in their minds, they are already leet pros who are better than everyone else

 

your attempts to help such people are met with extreme prejudice

 

i would expect that most of the players of this category are the young ones

Edited by Arlanon
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You know... what's funny is that I don't know you from Adam but I can pretty much guarantee you're probably a LOT better than me in PvP, so coming from the point of view of one of those people someone like you could potentially teach in that ten minute time period, I can tell you that some of us do listen. I didn't get better at winning warzones from reading the forums. I got better by listening to people telling me to stay on node, hit the ball carrier, attack the healer, etc. Heck, when I first started, I had no clue who the healers were, had no idea what the target markers meant, and the only thing I knew to do was go attack whoever had the lowest health bar on the other side.

 

I still suck with my rotation, can't play my class a tenth as well as the typical 12-year old player (I'm 46 and have the reflexes of a 96-year old man), but I do at least know how to play as a team member.

 

I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of other players like me out there.

 

I like your mentality.

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Right. Many pugs cannot be helped, because in their minds, they are already leet pros who are better than everyone else

 

your attempts to help such people are met with extreme prejudice

 

i would expect that most of the players of this category are the young ones

 

Indeed. You can't teach common sense. And, there's more than enough videos and guides for players to improve their pvp skills and how pvp works in this game. I am a firm believer in 'helping yourself'.

 

yesterday a level 55 said in Novare Coast - 'can we win with just one node?' - That kinda sums up the bads in pvp right now

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So I can't find the thread, but I recall someone posted a question as to the best PvP match people had played. I've had a few, but my memory is bad enough that I rypically can't really recall enough details for a good story.

 

However... I just had what was one of my better PvP matches. Not because it was down to the wire or because we did spectacularly well, but I was in a Novarre Coast match with a bunch of other Republic PUGs that we managed to turn around from a pretty bad start.

 

Seeing as I tend not to trust other people to guard nodes, I headed east and set up to guard. Three other pubs came with me, and I mentioned that we didn't need four guards, but by the time they got the point, we were down 100%-70%. I asked the other two if they would guard and call incoming, so I could head south, and no response. Finally, one asked, "call incoming?" Not a great sign, but about that time they decided to head west. Another player complained about the group heading all the map again, and maybe it was the past two nights of "YOU GUYS ALL SUCK!" that I'd been reading in WZ chat, but I got tired of it and decided to give direction.

 

First, I pointed out that splitting our forces south and west would guarantee a loss. Then I asked everyone to zerg south. And you know what? Everyone listened! One guy came up to guard with me (I'm a lvl 15 sent, so rather squishy), but then headed west. I asked him to stop and head south, and he did. Eventually, we took south, and at 100% to 24%, we had two nodes. I asked everyone to forget west and hold south and east, called out incoming a few times after that (and each time, people came to help and we kept the node). At one point, the other team zerged east and one of the other players told everyone to "keep 2 south, everyone else east." And sure enough, we all did. The node was almost taken, but that's it; almost.

 

In the end, it was a marvel of cooperation and although I sucked (as I usually do), everyone worked together, as a team, and everyone listened to directions.

 

I know it's fashionable to bash noobs, tell everyone how much we all suck (and yeah, some of us definitely do), but we were all noobs once and we can actually get better. Screaming at everybody that they all suck and need to get better isn't going to do it, though.

 

You have any idea how rare that is? Nine times out of ten the pugs generally just ignore everyone and do their own thing. It's great when you get a group that does listen...but they usually do not. Hell most pugs still cannot get the most basic function down which is attack the damn player with the big *** mark over their head.

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You have any idea how rare that is? Nine times out of ten the pugs generally just ignore everyone and do their own thing. It's great when you get a group that does listen...but they usually do not. Hell most pugs still cannot get the most basic function down which is attack the damn player with the big *** mark over their head.

 

i tell them to pretend this is pve and attack the marked one

 

when i think it will help. it often doesn't

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you can not type and fight, if you can predict the enemy team you can win, if a bad pug, you must predict your own team too...

rare are the pugs that reach the chemistry.

dont wait for calls in a pug, check the odds yourself, or you are the bad in the pug

Edited by deedeede
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You have any idea how rare that is? Nine times out of ten the pugs generally just ignore everyone and do their own thing

 

in pug vs pug matches one of my most used pvp skills is gettting my group to work together via chat. I consider it my personal best pvp skill.

 

It can be done. If you know how to do it that is :p

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you can not type and fight, if you can predict the enemy team you can win, if a bad pug, you must predict your own team too...

rare are the pugs that reach the chemistry.

dont wait for calls in a pug, check the odds yourself, or you are the bad in the pug

 

True, you can't type and fight, but it take very little time to "1w" in chat. Four keystrokes that can make a difference between keeping the node and winning the WZ or not, and if you're keeping a close enough lookout on the incoming lanes, you'll have more than enough time for that. I guard pretty consistently and rarely do I not have enough time to send one, two, or sometimes three calls before I'm taken out (if I am, that is; I'm getting better at the 1v1 cap attempt and am about 60/40 in fending those off). If I do have to send out a follow up, it's almost always a single digit ("2" or "3") or occasionally a "zerg w." As an example:

 

1w

2

zerg w

 

Clear enough, I would think, and takes very little time.

 

In any event, though, it's a pretty rare occurrence where I have to decide between dying and sending a warning out; usually 2-3 stealth, with one hitting me at the same time that another player comes out of stealth to cap, but even in such instances, I'll send the warning out while I'm being frozen, then break cc and hit the capper. In a few well-coordinated attacks, there will be a cc immediately following that roots me (usually followed by a quick death on my part), but teams that play that well are usually a no win for a PUG group anyway (as well as being a pre-made, typically). Still, in those instances, I have even more time to send a longer warning.

 

Of course, that's all with a lvl 15 combat sentinel, where I don't have GBTF and have minimal CDs to use, but that's also the range where I think people are more willing to listen.

 

 

Overall, though, I do get the point a lot of folks are making here, and I'm wondering if it might be a better idea to just try to find a pre-made to join. So... new question; how does one go about joining a pre-made, when everyone in your guild is 55 and only interested in raiding?

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the problem is with people that simply don't want to listen. They keep making the same basic mistakes all over again, every single day, after a few times you get that trying to be nice is just pointless.

 

Coming from the same server as you do, part of this problem is also that it seems to me that sometimes, some people just don't understand english at all. (I'm trying not to look towards the russian players, most of them are competent and understand english, but I have met way too many who - it seems - don't.) It's hard to explain a strategy if part of the team doesn't understand what you're saying.

 

But I agree with OP, it's always worth trying to come up with a strategy. If the team doesn't listen, well, at least you tried.

Edited by Seireeni
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You know... what's funny is that I don't know you from Adam but I can pretty much guarantee you're probably a LOT better than me in PvP, so coming from the point of view of one of those people someone like you could potentially teach in that ten minute time period, I can tell you that some of us do listen. I didn't get better at winning warzones from reading the forums. I got better by listening to people telling me to stay on node, hit the ball carrier, attack the healer, etc. Heck, when I first started, I had no clue who the healers were, had no idea what the target markers meant, and the only thing I knew to do was go attack whoever had the lowest health bar on the other side.

 

I still suck with my rotation, can't play my class a tenth as well as the typical 12-year old player (I'm 46 and have the reflexes of a 96-year old man), but I do at least know how to play as a team member.

 

I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of other players like me out there.

 

I exist with that mentality. I also look inward as often as I can when things don't go right because I realize I am not perfect, nor the best pvper.

 

See, the pugs that need help generally are not of that mentality. Its always the premade or someone else fault, so they won't accept help. They may even start insulting their team and even if it really is their teams fault, they are doing nothing but throwing gas on the fire.

 

Now that's out of the way, I was thinking about making a thread on the positives of pugs. Not all are bad, and its important everyone knows that. I often think premade complaints are not even premades at times. Just better puts against bad ones. Have had some matches lately where me and teammates just seem to be on the same page, and that is awesome

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Sometimes though people have no idea what to do. I don't pvp and I will not based on what I have read and seen in these forums. I tried it once and tried to explain to the person I have no idea what I am supposed to do and let's just say from the behavior and the attitude I received I will not set foot in a pvp area again.

 

Sometimes if you take the time to try to help someone you may find out they just need some idea what to do and give them some time to learn some things. You don't learn the mechanics of the hard mode flashpoints or operations overnight. It takes practice.

 

Why do people expect people to know how to pvp when some may have never done it and then we are met with this kind of attitude. Why would we want to even try to learn to do something and maybe try to understand why people want to pvp when we are met with this type of attitude.

 

I don't know about you but why would I want to play with someone that is constantly yelling or screaming when someone makes a mistake .

 

If you take the time to help you may find you have taught someone something that they didn't know but most don't want to . They prefer yelling, calling them names and just being rude to actually helping.

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I exist with that mentality. I also look inward as often as I can when things don't go right because I realize I am not perfect, nor the best pvper.

 

See, the pugs that need help generally are not of that mentality. Its always the premade or someone else fault, so they won't accept help. They may even start insulting their team and even if it really is their teams fault, they are doing nothing but throwing gas on the fire.

 

Now that's out of the way, I was thinking about making a thread on the positives of pugs. Not all are bad, and its important everyone knows that. I often think premade complaints are not even premades at times. Just better puts against bad ones. Have had some matches lately where me and teammates just seem to be on the same page, and that is awesome

 

Sometimes though people have no idea what to do. I don't pvp and I will not based on what I have read and seen in these forums. I tried it once and tried to explain to the person I have no idea what I am supposed to do and let's just say from the behavior and the attitude I received I will not set foot in a pvp area again.

 

Sometimes if you take the time to try to help someone you may find out they just need some idea what to do and give them some time to learn some things. You don't learn the mechanics of the hard mode flashpoints or operations overnight. It takes practice.

 

Why do people expect people to know how to pvp when some may have never done it and then we are met with this kind of attitude. Why would we want to even try to learn to do something and maybe try to understand why people want to pvp when we are met with this type of attitude.

 

I don't know about you but why would I want to play with someone that is constantly yelling or screaming when someone makes a mistake .

 

If you take the time to help you may find you have taught someone something that they didn't know but most don't want to . They prefer yelling, calling them names and just being rude to actually helping.

 

Thank you so much to both of you - this is exactly what I'm talking about, and I know for a fact that people like us do exist. I know full well that I am not good at PvP and I pull some truly bonehead moves at times. There are many occasions when I get flustered, lose track of the ball carrier or the healer, or am just generally out of touch with what's going on. I still have instances where I think I'm attacking, moving, and defending, but in reality I'm just spamming nonsense into the chat box.

 

But I'm learning. I know that I suck, but I also know I suck less than I did last week and I suck one heck of a lot less than when I first started. I rarely get into the upper levels of the scoreboard at the end of the match, but I'm now routinely taking the #1 spot on objective points (which does nothing for my comms, but at least makes me useful).

 

Almost all of what I've learned, though, comes from actually playing. Some of it has come from other people telling me what to do (usually accompanied with a curse or insult, and often in ALL CAPS). I've read the forums ad nauseum and I've gone to a lot of other websites, but learning to do a regular 360 degree scan of the nodes instead of just looking for incoming was learned when someone stealthed in, capped the node, and didn't bother me until after he'd capped. Yeah, it was a profoundly stupid move on my part, but I don't do that any more now.

 

But as ScarletBlaze points out, you don't just know this stuff. Nobody is just born with the knowledge of how to play PvP. Everyone has to learn somewhere. Yeah, I would agree that there's a lot of immature players who won't listen and they're definitely very loud and obnoxious (hence why I'm very grateful for /ignore), but how many players join WZs for the first time without really knowing what they're doing, and get verbally assaulted because they don't know that you're supposed to grab orbs and bring them to the pylons, or guard the cannons in ACW? WZ strategies aren't always intuitive, and even if they're intuitive for a player who has a long history of PvP gaming, it's not necessarily intuitive to the 35 year old stockbroker who decided to try SWTOR on a lark and wanting to see what the game was like. Yeah, his (or her) first impression might be, "this is kind of fun, and I want to do it again and learn how to do this better," but it's just as likely to be "these guys are raging jerks with serious emotional problems and I don't want to deal with them again."

 

Personally, I find it rather sad that Scarlet has reached the conclusion she(? - guessing here) has on not wanting to do PvP, but in no way can I blame her. When the vocal minority is the only voice, and they're the ones shouting about how terrible everyone is, scream at people to guard nodes (when they themselves have no interest in doing so), and curse at people who try to make things better, is it their fault for being obnoxious or our fault for not offering a different voice? If the only voice you hear is negative, how can you form a positive impression?

 

Honestly, I think everyone who reads this thread and agrees with me should just start speaking up in WZ chat. Be supportive, be helpful, and offer instructions. For the emotionally stunted players who can't deal with that, use the /ignore option.

 

I'll bet you real money that we could make a legitimate difference and that the overall quality of WZ PUG play would improve.

 

Oh, and btw... Scarlet, if you're ever on PoT5, I would be more than happy to play WZs with you. Even if you're worse at it than I am (which would be hard to do).

Edited by georgemattson
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For the emotionally stunted players who can't deal with that, use the /ignore option.

 

In warzones, there's a problem with ignore. Since /ignore doesn't affect matchmaking - you get to same teams with people you have ignored - you may make life more difficult to yourself and/or your team. When that person who was insulting everyone last match tries to call incs in the next match, you can't see those messages. Which may result in you losing a node.

 

With my healers, I usually dealt with this kind of people by stopping healing them. Hopefully, they die, a lot, and ragequit, and we get someone with manners as a backfill.

Edited by Seireeni
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In warzones, there's a problem with ignore. Since /ignore doesn't affect matchmaking - you get to same teams with people you have ignored - you may make life more difficult to yourself and/or your team. When that person who was insulting everyone last match tries to call incs in the next match, you can't see those messages. Which may result in you losing a node.

 

With my healers, I usually dealt with this kind of people by stopping healing them. Hopefully, they die, a lot, and ragequit, and we get someone with manners as a backfill.

 

Yeah, I can definitely see your point, and I imagine that may potentially become an issue. From what I've noticed so far, though, having only added two WZ players to my iggy list, those guys were not overly team players to begin with, though, and very focused on just farming comms. Not sure they'd ever be in a position to call out incoming? Of course, I could very well be wrong, but for my own mental and emotional well-being, I'd prefer to filter out the non-ending stream of profanity and risk it.

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Yeah, I can definitely see your point, and I imagine that may potentially become an issue. From what I've noticed so far, though, having only added two WZ players to my iggy list, those guys were not overly team players to begin with, though, and very focused on just farming comms. Not sure they'd ever be in a position to call out incoming? Of course, I could very well be wrong, but for my own mental and emotional well-being, I'd prefer to filter out the non-ending stream of profanity and risk it.

 

I'm glad if you haven't met more than 2 people worth ignoring, and if they truly were as terrible teamplayers as you said, it probably doesn't hurt anyone if you ignore them. But I at least have met some players, who are doing pretty fine in the team - as long as we're winning. If we're losing or if there are just some people who are new to pvp and don't know what they're doing, they start blaming their team. These are tricky cases with ignoring, because they actually are useful to the team, even though they have sort of...fiery temperament.

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I'm glad if you haven't met more than 2 people worth ignoring, and if they truly were as terrible teamplayers as you said, it probably doesn't hurt anyone if you ignore them. But I at least have met some players, who are doing pretty fine in the team - as long as we're winning. If we're losing or if there are just some people who are new to pvp and don't know what they're doing, they start blaming their team. These are tricky cases with ignoring, because they actually are useful to the team, even though they have sort of...fiery temperament.

 

Well, for what it's worth, it tends to take an awful lot for me to ignore someone. Everyone gets angry or irritated on occasion, and that I don't mind, but the constant, sexist, profanity-laden tirade that just kept going for the majority of the match was where I drew the line. What was especially puzzling to me was the sexism. Yes, it was a female toon, but I always assume 90% of most players are men and just seeing a female toon doesn't make me assume the person playing it is female. Yet they definitely thought that, and that was evidently an issue. If they think I'm stupid, fine. If they get angry at me because I'm trying to tell them what to do, fine. But when they assume my gender has anything to do with it and also don't bother explaining *why* they think I'm stupid, and have to emphasize that to great length, volume, and vehemence because my toon pees sitting down and they mistakenly believe I do as well, I tend to think that kind of player doesn't have anything constructive to offer.

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Well, for what it's worth, it tends to take an awful lot for me to ignore someone. Everyone gets angry or irritated on occasion, and that I don't mind, but the constant, sexist, profanity-laden tirade that just kept going for the majority of the match was where I drew the line. What was especially puzzling to me was the sexism. Yes, it was a female toon, but I always assume 90% of most players are men and just seeing a female toon doesn't make me assume the person playing it is female. Yet they definitely thought that, and that was evidently an issue. If they think I'm stupid, fine. If they get angry at me because I'm trying to tell them what to do, fine. But when they assume my gender has anything to do with it and also don't bother explaining *why* they think I'm stupid, and have to emphasize that to great length, volume, and vehemence because my toon pees sitting down and they mistakenly believe I do as well, I tend to think that kind of player doesn't have anything constructive to offer.

 

Yeah, I know the type. Ironically, these people are usually the ones handicapping their team - if not before they start raging, certainly after it. When they start using all their time typing to the chat instead of playing the game, there are only 7 people in your team actually trying to something and one trying to make everyone else feel bad. And yeah, they are usually the ones who won't call incs even if they do guard, so it doesn't really matter if you ignore them or not.

 

Btw, it might annoy you that someone assumes you're a female because of your female toon, it also annoys females (me, at least) that everyone automatically assumes I'm a guy, no matter what kind of toon I play. I understand why they do it, but I don't have to like it.

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