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Why must the ability to heal as a DPS = underwhelming performance as a DPS?


DarkIntelligence

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Let me preface this by saying that this is not another “You are telling me to **** and heal to full!? Hold my purse those are fightin’ words!” thread, not because I don’t think there is anything to be said about it, on the contrary in fact, but because I do not believe anything meaningful can be accomplished by pursuing that course of action.

What I want from this thread is a meaningful answer, dare I say it, supported by evidence as to the philosophy, which has become painfully clear that the developers hold, that classes which have the ability to heal cannot be expected to perform on par with classes that do not with respects to PvE and PvP DPS as well as overall PvP potential. Let me clarify that when I say “on par” I mean within a reasonable margin of around 5%, which is not the case at present (as many have pointed out it is closer to 10% or even 15%). The validity of this philosophy (again, as many have already grasped) is the crux of the argument which has arisen from the now infamous “heal to full” thread.

 

As a lightning sorcerer since early release, and someone who has cleared all content released to date, as well as having a good deal of PvP experience I have never understood this philosophy. As far as I am concerned literary the only instance in which the ability to heal is a noticeable asset is when soloing PvE content, that is to say leveling and doing dailies as that is the only solo content this game has to offer (with the exception of the two new Czerka SM FPs, where I guess this also applies). Aside from that and especially when it comes to group PvE content the ability to heal as an otherwise DPS class is entirely irrelevant, and though there may be extremely rare cases where throwing an extra heal might save the day, those come but once in a blue moon and are the result of either something going horribly wrong, bad luck, a poor healer, or most likely a combination of all 3. Therefore, I see no justification as to why the at least 10% disparity in DPS exists in PvE. Though it is by no means game breaking (especially for those of us who are not obsessed with getting on top of the damage charts), nor can it be the difference between downing a boss encounter (contrary to popular belief, because if things get that close then chances are your group is simply not ready for said encounter for whatever reason), this unjustifiable disparity in DPS can still keep people from playing a class they enjoy, either because they are unwilling to play a class with subpar DPS or because raid leaders will not take such a class. Regardless this is an issue which should not exist at all.

 

When it comes to PvP the situation is even simpler. Healing yourself or others as a DPS class in PvP is at best highly inefficient and at worst (and most often) simply an exercise in futility that serves only to prolong the inevitable and even then it prolongs it by a pitifully short amount of time. In other words even if we do try to “make them pay for trying to kill us” by simply boring them enough to make them move on to an easier target, as full healers do, we could not do it, precisely because we are NOT full healers but DPS. The ability to heal yourself as a DPS in a PvP environment is hardly an advantage at all, let alone one that justifies lower DPS and less overall survivability and defensive cooldowns.

 

Quite frankly, I do not see how anyone can dispute this logic, even if I do say so myself, not because I have made a particularly brilliant argument but because it is so simple I hesitate to even call it an argument at all. Why the developers can’t see it, then, is entirely beyond me.

 

Well that is all I have to say on the matter, now it’s up to you guys. Can any of you offer any defense for this philosophy? Can you drop some knowledge on me that can make me reconsider what I hold as self-evident? Yes Andryah, when I say this my gaze pierces the veil of the interwebs and stares right at you (not in a creepy way of course). :rolleyes:

 

As always I would love to hear from a developer on this, but I am not holding my breath. Anyway, I am now off to heal myself to full! :D

Edited by DarkIntelligence
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Paladins in WoW can DPS or Heal as a role.

warlocks can only DPS as a role.

Paladins who DPS can match a warlock's DPS with a 5% margin up or down from patch to patch. This is done thru reiterative changes to abilities and with new items for both specs as they are on test server.

Blizzard believes the players will not tolerate anything beyond a 2% margin and shoots for that, but frequently has spillover by outliers.

 

Hybrids should be competitive, but currently aren't in SWTOR.

Edited by ImpactHound
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I don't agree with the idea of the hybrid tax, if that's what's going on here. Especially in a PVE environment, we don't want our dps having to heal during a fight when enrage timers are at stake. There is absolutely no benefit to that. Same in PVP. However, I do think people underestimate the ability to *cough* heal to full. Look through WoW arena forums and see how much QQ there is over dps classes that can heal and the explosion when certain ones didn't get a heal nerf they were proposing.

 

I think that if Bioware buffed Sorc dps and gave them better defensive cooldowns, they would also inevitably nerf their ability to heal while in DPS spec. Would people find that an acceptable trade off?

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LOL! Just had to hear that one for myself.

 

Inquisitors and Consulars will never be returned to their demi-god release status. The sooner you guys get over that the sooner we can all enjoy a balanced game.

 

If you played at launch you would know that consulars were far from godly due to waiting on cast animations, and nobody is asking for godly status. We just want more than sentinels and gunslingers in our raids.

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I think that if Bioware buffed Sorc dps and gave them better defensive cooldowns, they would also inevitably nerf their ability to heal while in DPS spec. Would people find that an acceptable trade off?

 

If Bioware made healing useless for a DPS Sorc and gave us a group buff like Marauders and Snipers have while making our DPS close to equal I would be extremely happy with that

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I think that if Bioware buffed Sorc dps and gave them better defensive cooldowns, they would also inevitably nerf their ability to heal while in DPS spec. Would people find that an acceptable trade off?

 

Absolutely.

 

The reality is that Dark Heal is an immensely Force Inefficient Heal and that the cast time on Dark Infusion combined with the likelihood of push-back makes it nigh-useless tactically.

 

One of the more intelligent (I think) discussions have revolved around tying Healing and DPS abilities to specific Stances for the AC which would allow individual role balancing while addressing these concerns.

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I think that if Bioware buffed Sorc dps and gave them better defensive cool downs, they would also inevitably nerf their ability to heal while in DPS spec. Would people find that an acceptable trade off?

That is the whole point. When you spec dps, you are focusing on dps not healing. A dps sorc shouldn't have to look after healing others in the raid or themselves. I don't think sorc should be glass cannons like a mage though. Sorc are pure dps classes. They can either heal or dps. But dps wise they should be a lot more competitive in numbers but not topping charts.

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A hybrid tax is frankly ridiculous in this game. There is no need for a back-up healer unless things go terribly wrong in a fight. The lackluster heals a dps sage can put out should be treated the same as every other class's utility abilities. They are certainly not a replacement for providing dps equal to a slinger or a sent. Edited by iamthehoyden
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I agree, I just know from past experience that nerf to their heals will cause a big stir from many people, because any time any nerf happens, for better or for worse, that is what people do.

 

It seems like I really haven't seen a concentrated effort to get this point across. I see a lot of asking for buffs, but not people saying that they are want this trade-off.

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I don't play a Sorc so I'm not too familiar with their issues, but it seems like the issue seems to be a disconnect between how the devs envision the class should be played vs the players. The players feel Sorcs don't have enough survivability, so they ask for better cooldowns. The devs argue that they already have self healing to make up for the lack of powerful cooldowns. The players then feel that self healing as a DPS spec is too weak or too inefficient to be a suitable survivability mechanic. If this is truly the case (again, I don't have a Sorc so I don't know first hand), it seems that the next step should be thinking of ways to improve a Sorc's self healing ability as a DPS spec.

 

There are plenty of ways that a mechanic could be added near the end of the Sorc DPS trees that improve their ability to self heal. Just off of the top of my head, a stacking buff that improves the casting time / force cost / healing value of the next heal the Sorc self casts, and stacks are generated by casting X abilities. Something like that could allow self healing to act as a viable survivability mechanic over the course of a fight, without allowing them to just turtle up as effectively as a healing spec could (since they would need to build stacks through attacking).

 

And that's just the first thing I thought of as someone who doesn't even play the class. I'm sure the people who do could come up with much better ideas and maybe even have them ready for the next round of mirror class questions.

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I agree, I just know from past experience that nerf to their heals will cause a big stir from many people, because any time any nerf happens, for better or for worse, that is what people do.

 

It seems like I really haven't seen a concentrated effort to get this point across. I see a lot of asking for buffs, but not people saying that they are want this trade-off.

 

Everyone wants to be the best. Everyone wants to walk in push a button and wait for the smoke to clear. Which is why <insert class> sucks or <insert YOUR class> is OP vs <insert my class> please nerf <insert YOUR clasS> are fairly heated debates.

In our guild there is a sense of "competition" to get on HM raids. People are gearing like crazy and parsing to ends of the earth to get that max HPS or DPS that says "i'm ready for HM" since they can get pulled through SM content pretty easily (albeit sloppy). As if stepping into a HM/NM operation is simply about numbers. I don't care what you HPS are if you are losing 3/4 of your life standing in TFB Spit during phase one, before you realize it and move, you are NOT going to get into a HM op in the near future.

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Easy answer. Have a talent that costs 1 point to take and does the following: -

 

Removes hybrid tax on ability's for dps but removes all healing abilitys from class. Cannot have it both ways. Want the same dps then no healing whatsoever. Want to be able to heal and dps except you are not going to put out the same numbers.

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I agree, I just know from past experience that nerf to their heals will cause a big stir from many people, because any time any nerf happens, for better or for worse, that is what people do.

 

It seems like I really haven't seen a concentrated effort to get this point across. I see a lot of asking for buffs, but not people saying that they are want this trade-off.

 

the problem is, the heals are pre nerfed..they are pretty much a waste of time already.

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Paladins in WoW can DPS or Heal as a role.

warlocks can only DPS as a role.

Paladins who DPS can match a warlock's DPS with a 5% margin up or down from patch to patch. This is done thru reiterative changes to abilities and with new items for both specs as they are on test server.

Blizzard believes the players will not tolerate anything beyond a 2% margin and shoots for that, but frequently has spillover by outliers.

 

Hybrids should be competitive, but currently aren't in SWTOR.

This isn't WoW

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One of the more intelligent (I think) discussions have revolved around tying Healing and DPS abilities to specific Stances for the AC which would allow individual role balancing while addressing these concerns.

 

although i LOVE having access to kolto bomb on my commando as dps, if this is what it would take, i would be all for it.

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The best situation IMO.

 

All classes have a strength and a weakness. All classes have a bane and a boon class...one class they are naturally weak against, one they are always strong against.

 

The current situation IMO.

 

An attempt was made to create situations where hybrids had a lower performance due to the ability to cover two roles, but then mitigation and/or survivability was not balanced as it probably should have been.

 

So there are classes that have clearly inferior output without truly covering all bases and become less desirable in PVP.

 

However, in PVE IMO the weaknesses are not as apparent, and we have already walked down the road of changes to the classes overall for the sole sake of PVP with toxic results.

 

So, IMO, the problem is the way the classes are designed currently. And the mind set that all things need to be equal as well.

 

I actually believe that there should be two rule sets when it comes to PVE and PVP....and they should both play differently. A set of buffs, debuffs, additional skills and skill disable should come into play when one engages in PVP....this should be an overall set of variables that can be adjusted apart from PVE and allow changes that can benefit imbalances.

 

Either that or I think the classes need to be redesigned so that they can fill all three roles, the ACs clearly represent all three roles, and the output ends up being the same OR the boon and bane class method is used.

 

 

So here is what I think needs to be done, one of the following three....

 

1) Adjust all classes to have a boon and bane class

2) Create a buff/debuff system with ability additions and subtractions that can be adjusted for the sake of PVP only

3) Redesign the ACs so that all ACs can fill all three roles, with approximately equal output.

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I don't agree with the idea of the hybrid tax, if that's what's going on here.

 

It gets called a hybrid tax in the forum.. but I see it as the result of a balance budget (for lack of a better term). A class has X balance points (to measure against other classes). If measured against a pure DPS class... then unless the Sage/Sorc were pure DPS.. some % of it's balance points would be allocated to healing. I don't see why that is unreasonable, nor a tax per se.

 

I remain convinced the only way out of this circular rage (other then reasonable player realizations) is if they redid the spec trees such that each tree shifts the class to either DPS, Healing, or HYBRID. DPS spec gets no heals, Heals Spec gets no DPS (other then base), and Hybrid gets a balance. But while this works at level cap.. it falls apart at low levels since you lack the spec points to make it work. So maybe it only happens at the top end of the tree.. when you are above level 45. /shrug. Doing it with /stances would be too easy to exploit in PvP I think.

 

So... what.. right now.. Sorc/Sage DPS we are down 10-15% vs pure DPS + can heal? I really don't see that as unreasonable.

Edited by Andryah
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Meh, the bigger problem isn't dps, it's the lack of utility. Giving the best dps and utility to the same class is a bit of a problem.

 

As for pvp...meh? I usually run hybrid. Been trying out lightning, while not a great PvE spec, might be better than hybrid for PvP...undecided as of yet.

Edited by Hockaday
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