Exactly. There is no reason that I can see that would make the Empire inherently homophobic (however, I have encountered some sexism in the Empire - likely small holdovers from a patriarchal society; see that the Sith Code upholds stereotypically "masculine" emotions as being superior.) The Empire's humans are not Earth's humans - they do not have the same history or culture and therefore do not necessarily hold the same values or prejudices.

I'd say that Cool-dude's idea that the Empire's fascist values being the same as the Nazi's fascist values stems from a misunderstanding of fascism and the inability to distance the humans of a fictional culture and Earth's humans.

What is demonstrated in the Empire is a cult of personality (that of the Emperor), a social Darwinism both within the Sith circles and Force Blind professional and social circles, and a unifying military theme. I feel there are quite a few 1984 and other dystopian sci-fi themes as there are real world influences.

While Hitler did sometimes claim that the Nazi movement contained elements of 'socialism' so as to appeal to workers, in practice this was always a Strasserite angle. The Hitlerite policy there cannot even be described as corporatism (one of the real reasons that the Nazis did not align all that well with Fascism, unlike, say, the Falange). Hitler disestablished the unions, massively pared down welfare benefits from their highs under the Republic, inserted wage controls, and pretty much out-and-out allied with the major business interests. The sole program he instituted that even "might" have been "socialist" was Kraft durch Freude, a fairly transparent attempt to buy blue-collar workers off, and that was ended at the outbreak of war.

By the mid-1930s, even Hitler's election-time rhetoric about merging socialism and völkisch ideals receded. It is difficult to claim that one is representing any sort of "socialist" endeavor when one's bombers are flattening villages in the Spanish Republic, when the USSR has become one's avowed ideological enemy, and when one's relationship with the French Popular Front government has shifted from vague disapproval to overt hostility.

If a comparison can be made between the Sith Empire and Nazi Germany, apart from the obvious elements of racism and authoritarianism and the token ones of uniforms and symbolism, it is in how remarkably hands-off they were with respect to the actual workings of government and state. Hitler's Germany consisted of several different bureaucratic and administrative structures actively fighting against each other over jurisdiction, with rarely much of a concrete goal at all. Ian Kershaw described this state of affairs as "working toward the Führer", a system in which nobody was entirely sure what Hitler wanted to actually be done at any given time. Instead, due to the "charismatic" style of the regime, the people who actually made the decisions in the government pursued objectives that they individually believed were compatible with the Führer's barely-stated (or unstated) vision - not to mention ones that would increase those people's personal power and authority.

Hitler, by contrast [to Stalin], was on the whole a non-interventionist dictator as far as government administration was concerned. His sporadic directives, when they came, tended to be delphic and to be conveyed verbally, usually by [Hans] Lammers, the head of the Reich Chancellery, or, in the war years (as far as civilian matters went) increasingly by [Martin] Bormann [manager of the Party bureaucracy]. Hitler chaired no formal committees after the first years of the regime, when the Cabinet (which he hated chairing) atrophied into nonexistence. He directly undermined the attempts by Reich Interior Minister [Wilhelm] Frick to unify and rationalize administration, and did much to sustain and enhance the irreconcilable dualism of Party and State which existed at every level.

Remarkably similar to the Sith Emperor's style of rule, wouldn't you say?

Anyway. All that is, yeah, quite off topic. It is quite true that neither racism nor homophobia is intrinsic to an authoritarian society. Ancient Sparta, a decidedly authoritarian state - even totalitarian, although that word is painfully overused and insufficiently descriptive - was racist, although in fairly benign ways (the standard ancient Greek idea of 'the barbarian', which in Sparta's case was virtually never applied due to isolationism). It was also painfully misogynistic, both socially and legally. But it was not homophobic. Quite the opposite, really; Lakedaimonian homoioi were socially - if not legally - encouraged to develop sexual relationships with other men. So, too, the Theban "Sacred Band".

So the Empire might very well not be homophobic. It doesn't really impinge on their ideology at all. One would even think that, due to the virtually limitless freedoms afforded to Sith, that restrictions of any kind on the expression of a Sith's sexuality would be unthinkable. Sith can steal or kill whomever they please, and don't have to take orders from anybody if they don't feel like it; who, exactly, would enforce anti-homosexuality strictures?

As for the Empire, I might suggest that rampant sexism against women could lead to reduced homophobia and more tolerance towards homosexuality. This combination of attitude was fairly rare, but I can think of an example in Ancient Greece where this was common.

Also, modern Saudi Arabia.

I think there probably are some parallels between the Nazis and the Sith - the cutthroat merit system comes to mind, as well as the racism and use of slave labour, though the Nazis liked to call those concentration camps. But overall, I'd probably call the Sith Empire a theocracy - they are ruled by priests and warrior monks believed to have special or divine powers, and the head of state comes from the same group and has created a cult of personality around himself.

was racist, although in fairly benign ways

Benign? Spartan males had to assassinate a helot before they could be considered "men" and accepted into the military.

There's a lot of Sparta in the Sith Empire as well. However, Sparta was actually less misogynistic than other Greek City States, as women were allowed to own and manage property and have a say in civic policy. On the other hand, Spartans also believed that rape was marriage.

Ancient Greece kinda sucked.

I think there probably are some parallels between the Nazis and the Sith - the cutthroat merit system comes to mind, as well as the racism and use of slave labour, though the Nazis liked to call those concentration camps. But overall, I'd probably call the Sith Empire a theocracy - they are ruled by priests and warrior monks believed to have special or divine powers, and the head of state comes from the same group and has created a cult of personality around himself.

Or, indeed, a magocracy.

But yes, I fully agree. There are many disconnects between Nazism and TOR's Sith. Which only emphasizes the bankruptcy of simply correlating all of the policies of the one with the other. Nazi homophobia has no bearing on Sith policy toward homosexuality.

Benign? Spartan males had to assassinate a helot before they could be considered "men" and accepted into the military.

 

There's a lot of Sparta in the Sith Empire as well. However, Sparta was actually less misogynistic than other Greek City States, as women were allowed to own and manage property and have a say in civic policy. On the other hand, Spartans also believed that rape was marriage.

 

Ancient Greece kinda sucked.

I wouldn't describe the Lakedaimonian stance towards Messenians and helots as "racism". It wasn't totally class antagonism, either, of course. But in order for it to have been "racism" there would have had to have been a biological/primordialist component to it, and that simply wasn't there. Ancient Greek racism was directed against the barbaroi, or at least the idea of the barbaroi. Whatever the Spartans' problems with Messenians, fundamentally, both groups were still Greek.

And yes, ancient Greece objectively sucked. You've heard of the saying "familiarity breeds contempt"? Well, I'm extremely familiar with classical history.

Ok, this thread has completely fallen to Godwin's Law....

Oh yes, Cool Dude* was most definitely trolling with his idea that "Empire=Nazis, because all fascists are Nazis" statement, however if people are going to try the argument of "CLEARLY a Fascist State would never allow a deviation from the Patriarchal 'Straight Man Is Everything' ideal" then it's best to have a post or two to show them why they're wrong.

I mean, we can never actually ask the writers why something is or isn't (they aren't allowed to talk to the community, after all), but we can at least come up with reasons grounded in logic and the facts presented us in-game.

*I cannot get over this guy's name, either, it just does lend itself to any sort of discussion.

Not all fascists are the same and not all bigotry is the same, either. You are assuming that all the values of the Empire are equal to the values of entirely Earth-based fascist governments, and that is a mistake.

By that same thinking, one could go with the idea than any earth based values, ways of life, ect ect are wholly different than they are on Earth on every subject.

Ok, this thread has completely fallen to Godwin's Law....

I bet someone in this thread thought it would be me to bring it up too.

I got discouraged and stopped following the thread for a while. I know 'flirting' was added to Makeb... This was actually when I got discouraged as it's ONLY Makeb... Is this still the only SGRA content that's been added so far?

After all this time I know better than to ask about word of any future content...

I got discouraged and stopped following the thread for a while. I know 'flirting' was added to Makeb... This was actually when I got discouraged as it's ONLY Makeb... Is this still the only SGRA content that's been added so far?

 

After all this time I know better than to ask about word of any future content...

Makeb is our only SGR content, yes.

It appears that we won't be getting any new class story content (Mr. Hood did say they were going for an "Avengers" style and the one time I asked Mr. Musco about it, he said, "have we not been clear?") and companions are... quite possibly not happening because Mr. Hickman said it was proving to be "difficult".

So, yay, one-off NPCs and world [Flirt]s are being treated as the equal of the Companion Romances. Go Bioware. /sarcasm

Makeb is our only SGR content, yes.

 

It appears that we won't be getting any new class story content (Mr. Hood did say they were going for an "Avengers" style and the one time I asked Mr. Musco about it, he said, "have we not been clear?") and companions are... quite possibly not happening because Mr. Hickman said it was proving to be "difficult".

 

So, yay, one-off NPCs and world [Flirt]s are being treated as the equal of the Companion Romances. Go Bioware. /sarcasm

i remember a dev saying they would companion romance via of a patch after ROTHC was released and that very shortly before ROTHC was released. I also heard 2.2 may be that patch

Oh yes, Cool Dude* was most definitely trolling with his idea that "Empire=Nazis, because all fascists are Nazis" statement, however if people are going to try the argument of "CLEARLY a Fascist State would never allow a deviation from the Patriarchal 'Straight Man Is Everything' ideal" then it's best to have a post or two to show them why they're wrong.

 

I mean, we can never actually ask the writers why something is or isn't (they aren't allowed to talk to the community, after all), but we can at least come up with reasons grounded in logic and the facts presented us in-game.

 

 

*I cannot get over this guy's name, either, it just does lend itself to any sort of discussion.

Empire=Nazis is correct, as the idea is modeled after the Nazis.

I also never said a fascist state would never allow anything outside of, as you put it: " 'Straight Man Is Everything' ideal"" My point was that the Nazis would not, and the Empire in the Star Wars spectrum of things are modeled after the Nazis. I suggested that SGR should be in-game, but within the Empire faction, it should be seen as distasteful. However, lets say you are an imperial Agent, or a Sith, no one will dare say anything to you about it, because of your status.

"does not mean that they therefore believe in a hierarchy based on race, gender or sexuality".

They do have a hierchy based on race and social standing though. If you aren't human or pureblood, you are seen as a lower being.If you aren't a Sith, everyone below them in rank is a lesser being. If you aren't an officer in the military, you are a lower being. If you aren't a noble, you are even down the chain.

i remember a dev saying they would companion romance via of a patch after ROTHC was released and that very shortly before ROTHC was released. I also heard 2.2 may be that patch

Never heard anything like that.

2.2 is on the PTS and that's definitely not included. I think we have to face that we aren't ever getting companion romance...too hard n stuff.

Never heard anything like that.

 

2.2 is on the PTS and that's definitely not included. I think we have to face that we aren't ever getting companion romance...too hard n stuff.

Never heard anything about it either. But I like to hope they will add it. I just think it'll be "Buy our new companion complete with companion missions for 2000 Cartel Coins!"

If there is a Cartel Market "solution" to my Sith Mara finally having a go with Vette, I would buy it. Pixel luv ?

I'm glad that the weird fascism vs nazis vs empire thing is all done with.

To quote Ferris : "-Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself." Or herself.

i remember a dev saying they would companion romance via of a patch after ROTHC was released and that very shortly before ROTHC was released. I also heard 2.2 may be that patch

Mr. Musco has stated he hopes/d to have more information for us post-ROTHC, though gods alone know when that will be.

Mr. Hickman stated that the Companion SGRA's were proving "difficult" and that therefore we wouldn't be seeing them soon.

I would like to know where you heard 2.2 to be our Companion SGRA patch, as that does not mesh with the above two statements given us by Bioware.

TBH all they are saying here is...

Gays are bad because they only exist as imperials (generally accepted bad guys)

Lesbians are good because they only exist as republic (generally considered good guys)

Discrimination within SGRs

lol GJ BW

You continue to impress me

TBH all they are saying here is...

Gays are bad because they only exist as imperials (generally accepted bad guys)

Lesbians are good because they only exist as republic (generally considered good guys)

Discrimination within SGRs

lol GJ BW

You continue to impress me

No. What you're saying is that. And probably because you want to stir up some sort of player outrage.

1) Makeb is a planet with a planet storyline. Therefore the options were limited on who your character could flirt with in the main planet quest story.

2) There are no lesbian NPCs, as male PCs can flirt with all the female NPCs that are flirtable by female PCs, which makes them bisexual.

3) Bisexual female NPCs on Empire side.

4) It's not discrimination, it's not a lot of content being released. Seriously. You think Makeb was going to be more than a planet worth of content? Go look back at all the planets level 1-50. You generally, IF AT ALL, had one serious NPC you interacted with on the Planet Storyline Quests, with the real story on the planet being your Class Storyline Quest.

Now all that said, I believe it was figured out before hand, trolls like you would say that's what BW was going for. Sooo...

*clap clap*

...way to prove people right You're an awesome guy for doing so!

Mr. Musco has stated he hopes/d to have more information for us post-ROTHC, though gods alone know when that will be.

 

Mr. Hickman stated that the Companion SGRA's were proving "difficult" and that therefore we wouldn't be seeing them soon.

 

I would like to know where you heard 2.2 to be our Companion SGRA patch, as that does not mesh with the above two statements given us by Bioware.

on the subject of how diffcult it is. i always thought you were going current companions to sgr. it would nearly impossible given alot of us have lvl 50 and completely their stories. i was impression that they intruduce new companion for that. to me atleast it would make sense. as for were i heard some people talking bout on my jc server. and saw a thread on another claiming that it was indeed 2.2. but personally when get here it get here. just threw out as something i heard.

I DO want SGRA's with current Companions, but I also think that they should be backwards compatible (that is, available to those of us who have played the god damn game since release and have actually got the 10k Affection and Level 50/55 characters) and hopefully, the introduction of that compatibility is causing the problems and not the act of scripting and recording.

Because if scripting and recording is the problem, this game can kiss story lines goodbye.

Makeb is our only SGR content, yes.

 

It appears that we won't be getting any new class story content (Mr. Hood did say they were going for an "Avengers" style and the one time I asked Mr. Musco about it, he said, "have we not been clear?") and companions are... quite possibly not happening because Mr. Hickman said it was proving to be "difficult".

 

So, yay, one-off NPCs and world [Flirt]s are being treated as the equal of the Companion Romances. Go Bioware. /sarcasm

Thanks for the update and info. "difficult" hmm... Doesn't sound good for us. But, at least it sounds like there's a trickle of information for us.

Thanks for the update and info. "difficult" hmm... Doesn't sound good for us. But, at least it sounds like there's a trickle of information for us.

and people wonder why this game is going downhill. not my opinion but i can see why people have it though.. not contiuning class story is going kill the game. but as sgr with the currentr companions. i see that nearly impossible.to some extend wit new ones if there writing new ones for every class.

 

3) Bisexual female NPCs on Empire side.

 

Wait... are you saying there is, or there isn't bisexual females on the Empire side? Because if there is, that contradicts what everyone else has said.

Wait... are you saying there is, or there isn't bisexual females on the Empire side? Because if there is, that contradicts what everyone else has said.

There really isn't.

You can flirt with two females as a female (GSI quest givers) but nothing happens.

Hard to say if they are really bisexual or not.

There really isn't.

 

You can flirt with two females as a female (GSI quest givers) but nothing happens.

 

Hard to say if they are really bisexual or not.

While yes, with the way they set it up, I'd say it leans more towards yes they are.

With that line of thinking, with how it played ou anyways, one could say Lemda isn't really bisexual, but made an exception for my female smuggler, and followed along that trope.