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Class Balance in 6.0 (Question)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Class Balance in 6.0 (Question)

memerobot's Avatar

10.12.2018 , 02:54 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Whynotdothis View Post
I don't miss with any of my attacks as a melee unless mara if the other player doesn't have something on me like obfuscate or diversion. So, no, that assertion is wrong.
It has the same accuracy as many other attacks. The 'missing a lot' simply has to do with defense chance. You got unlucky, too bad.
Check the parse whenever you play your marauder, the attacks from second saber fails a lot of attacks since, for some reason, has decreased accuracy.

Quote: Originally Posted by Whynotdothis View Post
LOL the entire team is mezzed? Really?, I've never seen that as there are always a dot on someone. Or we don't stack so they can't hit all of us. In which case, the healer cleanses the stun. I pretty sure 99% of people don't know you can do that.
Just by ready this, I can see you never tried TR against a proper team.

Quote: Originally Posted by Whynotdothis View Post
**** really? Stun and LOS. It's not that hard to do in the vast majority of the circumstances. Stop being lazy.
All arenas, you'll be caught in open areas and not next to any sort of LoS but again this is only against proper teams that happens to you.
Lower tier teams will just net you right away and not think ahead of what you could pull of.

In regs, depends on where you are placed:
Huttball > unless you're already at the sides, 'cover' from net is pretty much impossible.
Novare Coast > Unless you manage to hide behind to bunker walls with the merc on the other side, or the turret's 'thingy', there's no real place to hide.
Ancient Hypergate > If the fight is at middle, you either use the walls next to the entrance or the middle «thing» and if next to pylons, you use the pillars on the side.
Yavin Ruins + Alde Civil War > At mid, you're close to the beneath the ramps or behind the console; At the sides, stand on the side of the stairs or behind console.

These are all the places, pretty much, where you can hide and honestly, you're rarely caught in a net in these situations. At least, against smart mercenaries. Yet again, there's always the majority that just waste nets.
And mezzing won't work 80% of the cases in regs

4) Merc:
Nr1: Hydraulics > 45s - lasts for 6s (can go up to 10s)
Nr2: Jet Boost > 30s (can be 25s + utility that can reduce its CD 1s every 1,5s but barely anyone takes this)
Nr3: Rocket Out > 20s (can be 17s + has utility that can refresh it 1 more time in case takes melee or tech damage, so that means any double saber throw or vicious throw will give you extra kiting.)
Nr4: Missile Blast > 8s, roots you 5s (It says 4s but the thing is bugged and already roots you, a lot of times, before it even lands on you) but if taken damage, its 2s to be gone.
Nr5: Arsenal spec only >, your Blazing bolts reduce 70% of speed while channeled + 1,5s-3s after it ends.
Nr6: Utility on your spam attack(tracer missile) to reduce speed by 40%

Nr1: Predation every 30 stack or every 30s
Nr2: Mad Dash: Every 45s(can be reduced to 35s)
Nr3: Stealth: 45s (Honestly effective if they have cleanse effects from utility, otherwise, you'll keep the effects of root/slow down)
Nr4: Leap: Every 12s I believe (Add another in case you're Fury with Obliterate + Utility that allows you to double leap)
Nr5: Cripplish Slash: reduce speed by 50%
Nr6: Ravage: Can equip Utility to root but this can be cleansed by anyone
Nr7: Utility to add reduce speed by 50% on Force Charge, Force Rend, Obliterate, Devastating blast for 6s

Mara has most gap closers/reduce speed to catch up with but they can be shut down through roots anyway AND you can verify that Merc has lower CDs on the more 'important ones, even if the number is lower'.

Quote: Originally Posted by Whynotdothis View Post
This is mostly a player issue not having the awareness of their surroundings. Need to figure that one out on your own. I don't have the time to explain everything.
Same thing the other way around.

Quote: Originally Posted by Whynotdothis View Post
Yes, it's a huge waste of a utility. If you take it and use Missile Blast you lose DPS/DCDS/Healing. Plus the rooting effect is really only semi-useful in 1v1 situations. But like you stated before arenas are not 1v1s.
Semi useful? You severely underestimate the power of this utility, seriously. And how come you lose DPS/DCDs/Heals?
Every damned 8s you have a chance to use 2/3 heals(2 channeled + instant/ 1 channeled+instant/2 channeled) and follow up with attack. If the marauder uses a rootbreaker, you gained an advantage right away because he wasted an important one against something that is spammable AND a marauder CAN'T heal.

Quote: Originally Posted by Whynotdothis View Post
)If you are at least a mediocre player you can.
Considering you catch the merc at a relatively short health (below 20%), yeah, possible, otherwise, the double tick actually can be stronger than the mara's attack, since merc can just throw the instant heal to compensate if not enough to keep the health high thus keeping itself up but again in regs, I don't find this problem but try dueling against proper mercs and you'll see what I mean.

Quote: Originally Posted by Whynotdothis View Post
If merc reflect is broken so is Enraged Defense. When I can heal from literally 1% to 100% in 1-2 GCDs there is something wrong.
ED can be used in a mere 2/3 GCDs against bursts and can vanish in a single GCD if it goes against a dot and again they STILL TAKE FULL DAMAGE.
Just so you see the difference, I've managed to burn through ED as Lethality Operative in 1 GCD quite the few times before. Corrosive Assault (strongest attack in Lethality, 11k) + Toxic Blast for every dot tick (deals puny 1.5k at most)+ 3 dots procced by Corrosive Assault (usually 2k each, at most 3k). That's 7 attacks and more 4/6 attacks from the automatic ticks from the dots on target. In total, its 13 attacks. And the dots can double tick (10% chance), as well 13>12.
So, in total, I've dealt, at most, 35k damage, while he supposedly healed, easily, +150k health(atm ED ticks heal 17k, I believe. So 17k x 12 is more than 200k).
As you can see, Jugg lost potential heals(about 30k up to 50k) from that since it can go full health after 6-8 of them.

Merc heals 5% every attack it lands and reflect lasts 6s and they don't take damage aside from light dots and AOE attacks
And mara attacks are bugged af, as well. No matter which attack a marauder does, it counts like this: 1 attack +1 because retarded "two sabers" wielding, so that means that, by accident, if I hit the merc with melee, and since marauder uses 2 sabers, I've healed 15%, which is around 20k because it counts as 2 + 1. If you don't believe me, open parse, use any melee attack and you'll see in parse how many attack it counts. Even damned Vicious throw counts as 2.

Quote: Originally Posted by Whynotdothis View Post
No, really, you need to learn to play at a higher level than SM Warrior or 1k rating.
I reached Gold on my Leth Operative with pugs (random teammates and no comms) in S9 and got 2 Gold(S8+S9) on my marauder. Also have Silver in other seasons (S6+S7). I've only started playing real PvP after S5 ended.

Quote: Originally Posted by Whynotdothis View Post
No, I know what their limits are. I see many of them in Ranked and they are not nearly as mobile as you think.
Proper Mercs can go around their 'limits'. Same with Marauders.

Quote: Originally Posted by Whynotdothis View Post
LOLOLOLOLOL a merc that makes 1-3 mistakes is usually dead really soon. You should really learn to play so as to not make more mistakes than a merc or anyone else for that matter.
Reg Mercs (75%) do this. Proper ones don't. Same argument goes for a mara.
And everyone does mistakes here and there. No one's perfect.

Quote: Originally Posted by Whynotdothis View Post
Yeah, I'm going to take the advice of someone that is crying about mercs.
Sorcerer/Mercenary/Operatives should not lose to snipers as long as there's something to hide behind from. There's always turn around but it is an advantage to be able to heal and to exist objects to hide behind.

Quote: Originally Posted by Whynotdothis View Post
No, just learn to play.
Right. Would like to see you pull it off a lot of times against 2 proper players with.
Best scenario is Solo Ranked and catching up proper players or Team Ranked where both teams ARE GOOD and lost their healer and tank(this rarely happens) and you are also the only DPS alive in yours against 2 others.
Rarely, in regs, you find proper players, and when you do, its NOT A REAL FIGHT. It is something from the likes of stalling a cap because Operative is the niche role of protecting objective points.

CannotDeny's Avatar

10.15.2018 , 07:31 AM | #52
I really hope nobody on the dev team listens to you guys or thinks its a good idea to
1) Remove more skills/not add any new skills
2) Remove the option to mix tank and DPS gear/skank tank setups
3) Remove tanky/heal abilities from DPS or have tanks unable to use DPS stats

You're all clamoring for killing choice, akin to when they removed stances and pruned a bunch of flavor abilities that for example you could have just not used on your action bar.

Terrible, but if it gets to that point I no longer have to worry about this game's future.

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar

10.15.2018 , 12:30 PM | #53
edit : woops wrong thread
Beruhl / Zenovia / Lobotomy / Warpunk
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Quote: Originally Posted by Trolltar View Post
I believe he's quoting a frequent contributor to these forums. His name is Strawman.
Quote: Originally Posted by Lunafox View Post
Thanks Rion Starbrah.

Eloi_BG's Avatar

10.15.2018 , 02:07 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
5 - I can't imagine the amount of crack you smoked that brought you to this utterly wrong conclusion. This is a ranged meta up and down and even if it wasn't that principle would still be wrong. Custom dictates that melee must have higher dps than ranged due to greater up time, being less prone to damage [because they are wussies and fight from 5 blocks away] and can adjust to mechanics with greater ease and still be able to DPS properly unlike melee whom any time they need to get more than 4m away, must stop DPSing no matter what.

You are a NiM level player so it would be impossible for you to come to this conclusion having done Revan HM, TOS Coritanni and Master/Blaster HM, Styrak NiM, TFB NiM, DP/DF NiM.

If there is no difference in uptime and safety between ranged and melee, stop standing so friggen far from the boss all the time, stand right next to the melee all the time and stop DPSing anytime you have to go further than 4 m from your target like melee do.
If you think this is a ranged meta in PVE you're wrong. Melee DPS have dominated PVE since this 5% rebalance thing they did, even on every single boss you just mentionned. 2-3% would be a lot more fair. Please don't talk like you're a NiM player saying that kind of things: "You are a NiM level player so it would be impossible for you to come to this conclusion [...]". Pretty much every single MM player agrees this 5% gap is too big.

As for PVP, I don't see snipers and mercs dominating because of their DPS. No one really dominates because of their DPS, its mostly the other utilities that shape up PVP. A 2-3% difference is not really important in PVP and doesn't change the meta.

Side note on that last paragraph I quoted. You just showed with that how little you understand how high end PVE is played, you should refrain from commenting on something you obviously don't know too much about. Thank you
Nemio the Acceptable Player

SiegePro's Avatar

10.15.2018 , 02:12 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by CannotDeny View Post
I really hope nobody on the dev team listens to you guys or thinks its a good idea to
1) Remove more skills/not add any new skills
2) Remove the option to mix tank and DPS gear/skank tank setups
3) Remove tanky/heal abilities from DPS or have tanks unable to use DPS stats
1) The only skill I want removed is the abjectly worthless Transpose for the Vanguard/Powertech tanks. And that's not so much "remove" as "replace with something that is actually more useful than just spamming your basic attack." As it stands, right now the VG/PT tanks get one useless (transpose) and one marginal (oil slick/smokescreen) talent as part of their spec... so literally HALF their spec's powers could stand some serious revamping or replacing. What it could REALLY use is an actual "Oh Crap!" reflect ability and to have the levels for its grapple and charge abilities swapped (There is NO reason charge should be delayed until level 59. NONE).

2-3) I'd only really be for removing the DPS gearing for tanks if they also included a DPS version of the tank builds (i.e. same skills, dps-level armor/defenses and damage). The biggest issue I see with skank setups is its effect on group-finder content. Skanks have problems with higher end tanking, but are flagged as tanks for group-finder. They also have a disproportionate effect on PVP content.

But, at least for Shadow/Assassin and Vanguard/Powertech, they're also the build that plays the most like what you'd EXPECT of the class... a better mix of melee and 10 meter abilities without being a DoT-based class... which is why I see the appeal of the builds and why people would gear them as a Skank for solo play (so they can least be in the ballpark of the damage they need to deal to run through Heroics and Story-mode Flashpoints without it turning into a slog). In the case of the Vanguard its also your only non-DoT choice that doesn't have you giggling like a crazy person every six seconds as their key proc triggers... you're supposed to be a professional soldier damn it, not a stand up comedian.

That's why I'd honestly be for some type of toggle or something similar that could let you set the tank spec to DPS-mode without having to respec, re-select your utilities, swap out your gear and rearrange your skill bars just because you're wanting to do solo content at the moment instead of group content.

The biggest constraint there is that whatever toggles it between tank and DPS mode has to be something that can't just be flipped in the middle of a fight... preferably it should be something not able to be toggled in combat at all and honestly should have a cool-down in the 10-15+ minute range on top of that, but I'm not sure what the technical limitations of the game engine are to enable something like that.

Barring something like that though, for the sake of people who like to use the tank spec in solo content (and really, how are you supposed to get any good with it if you can't practice with it?), I can't condone removing the option to gear in a more DPS-focused way for them.

Slafer's Avatar

10.16.2018 , 12:21 AM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by xMaranathax View Post
Just throwing my $0.02 in here.

General Improvements
1. Get rid of off heals and off tanking mechanics for DPS specializations. DPS Specializations shouldn't be able to taunt, guard, nor heal in any regard. DPS should DPS. If we keep this, why not gray the lines more and add healing to tanking? Reminiscent of the Kinetic Combat pre 2.0 with the heals on Telekinetic Throw.

2. Bump up tank damage slightly. Tanks were hit hard in a recent patch that was aimed at taking away skank tank (hybrid tanks). This did no such thing, and only made running full mitigation mods and enhancements a joke. Though the recent adjustment to shield and crit, tanks are more resilient now, their damage is still sub par. I recommend changing the code behind the scenes so the attack abilities are based off tank stats, such as defense, shield, and absorb, opposed to the dps stats such as power, critical, and alacrity.

3. Require tanks to gear in tank gear. Not sure how you could do this, but this would kill off the skank tanks. Require that as soon as a tank specs into a tanking specialization, require that only tanking gear can be equipped.

Class specific (only the ones I see need help)
1. PT/VGs need some love. An additional DCD and reworking of the current would be beneficial. They need more survivability, even at the expense of DPS. Bring back the 30m range for PT/VG. Even if it is one ability like it was with Full Auto, it was at least something. Having a skill set similar to that of Hatred Assassins/Serenity Shadows would be ideal.

2. Mercenary/Commando DCDs need to be nerfed. I am including the off heals as part of their "DCDs" in this, so removing the off heals would help at the least. Reflect, with a heal to full, with a damage reduction is just too much for one class.

3. I cannot believe I am saying this now, because I was one who cursed for them to be nerfed, but please buff damage output for Sage and Sorcs. They need more offensive love.

4. Nerf the survivability of Snipers and Gunslingers. They are currently mini-tanks and put out too much damage for being able to survive so much.
i disagree as a lighting sorc my heals do not have that great an effect on pvp and i do not want to lose them because the way bioware works i will lose them for pve as well I am found of healing here and there in tougher fights. Specs like mine need the heals to help stand on there own. Plus I can't 1 v 1 as easy as other classes
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ProKsnNwk's Avatar

10.17.2018 , 08:17 PM | #57
So I don't know about any other class, but regarding Assassin/Shadow in PvP I feel that it's underpowered in terms of Survivability/Anti Root/Off GCD DMG ability, not quite sure how to call it.

I main Shadow/Assassin since Beta, played 8v8 in Reality Check TRE, played S1 to S3 All-star.
I came back to game this Season, did some PvE and PvP (YOLO and proper TR, 248 Augmented).
In PvE I didn't find any problem I was very happy both with both DPS specs.
I consider myself a good Shadow/Sin Player I know theorycrafting behind the class and rotations and some know hows.

But for PvP something feels wrong, when fighting all other classes they are right in your face and tanking damage while doing damage to you then Healing back to full and I feel rooted all the timed having hard time closing distance.
Also lot of times against other Melee classes I find that Stuns are useless and don't work.

Still I always find myself lagging behind in terms of DPS in WZ and Yolo, in TR is not as bad.
But it's really bad in Yolo and Regs. I find myself having to Kit as Range class to avoid damage and wait for my CDs to come off and I am even spaced in all DMG reductions, Absorptions/Reflections.
and I understand other classes CDs too when to not dmg, when to stun etc...

I think the main reason for this feeling of powerlessness than is because all our Defensive CDs are usable when not stuned compared to other classes and new roots, new cds, stun immunities from other classes
Especially since all other classes now having Anti-Focus mechanics and Heal to full mechanics where you have too long of downtime to do anything.
While Sin have to Vanish away to lose Aggro and cannot Tank damage, while having possibility to be broken away from Vanish.
So therefore making Shadow/Sins CC less useful.

I think that there are couple good options how to deal with it.
Sin/Sha for PvP would merit a lot from having Force Speed Root immunity Utility Point together with Force Speed DMG Absorption rating.
or an Off GCD Damage ability that triggers our Surging Charge on standard CD
or Off GCD Vanish when specced into Force Cloak with Vanish.

I really feel that for PvP Ranked except for Sorc/Sage I don't feel like we have lot of margin for error compared to other classes.
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Slafer's Avatar

10.20.2018 , 09:57 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by SilverWF View Post
1. Sorcs/Sages obviously must be buffed.
How? Force Lightning damage buff, something like +10-20%

2. No Phasewalk back for Sins/Shadows.
They are already have WAY too many defense/vanish stuff, why give them (back) more?

3. NO ANY NEW SKILLS for anyone!
Gosh damn, ppl what is wrong with you? Are you octopus or what?

4. Remove half of skills.
Split most similar skills to single ones. There is way too many skills, that acts in the same way, why they even exists? Just make 1 skill instead of 2-3, with lower cd!
All modern MMOs has lower (allowed) number of skills, having full 5 hotbars is a last century, really.

This game would die if you take out half the abilities really there aren't enough interesting abilities as is in a game that's years old we want to keep the players interested. And as somebody else pointed out when others MMOs have done that it destroyed the game balance.
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xMaranathax's Avatar

10.25.2018 , 11:56 AM | #59
For everyone complaining that VG/PT doesn't have their charge until later levels....

Go back. First off, only tank spec had it.

Secondly, you had to get to level 41 (i think) to get it. That meant we had to deal with no gap closer for most of the leveling experience. Sure, which the addition to hop in Group Finder and go into Flashpoints that were originally above your level is different now, you still have to imagine what it was like back in the good ol days of Vanilla.

As far as my recommendations to 6.0, I think they need to get rid of all off heals and off tanking abilities (such as taunt and guard). If you're DPS, you should DPS. No heal to full for DPS. That's absurd. Tanks can't off heal. Why should DPS?

VG/PT needs a lot of love. I would love to see some of their damage restored for Shield Tech/Specialist, but they mostly need some DCDs.

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