There are a lot of new players who complain about the difficulty of their first many games. They are unskilled and have stock ships. Then, there are the elitists who state that "Skill > Gear." This is a one-sided, blind argument based on a false assumption. The issue is that there will rarely be a time in which the opposing team does not have an Ace. (For those players arguing as such, put yourself in a ground PvP and PvE situation--fresh 60s with no PvP gear versus a 60 in full 174 augmented gear or a level 60 with 172 gear going into ToS HM.)

Take two of the same player **insert your idea of a best player here** and put them in separate ships--one a fully upgraded Sting and the other a stock Blackbolt. Can anyone honestly tell me that, with the same skills, he would even have a chance to win with the Blackbolt? If you believe that, you're delusional and evading a key point--skill will be found on both sides.

GSF could have a Bolstering system. For the first 6 hours of play or so, they could have increased health, armor, evasion, and damage. After that 6 hours is up, they will earn an achievement (or something) and the buff will be removed. To help fight against those Aces who would abuse this feature by starting new accounts or characters, the buff could self-remove (per game) after so many kills in-game (say, 5 or 6). The purpose of this Bolster would be to allow newer players to actually have the TIME to survive longer than being spawn-farmed.

This is a solution that I feel will allow players to stay involved in GSF rather than play once and never hit that queue again.

There are a lot of new players who complain about the difficulty of their first many games. They are unskilled and have stock ships. Then, there are the elitists who state that "Skill > Gear." This is a one-sided, blind argument based on a false assumption.

Great to have you here in the thread, oh Arbiter Of Truth and Judge Of Pilots.

Would a bolster system prevent new pilots from flying slowly in a straight line at a target and unleashing their furious maxxed burst lasers from 10k out? Would a bolster system direct new pilots to correctly defend a satellite when they are instead fighting out in the middle of empty space? Would a bolster system teach a new pilot the value of sticking with their team instead of freelancing wantonly with no regard to the tactical situation in a match? Would it teach them to lock missiles?

There have been many Stock Night events where veterans fly stock ships and non-veterans or those who don't know about the event fly their usual hangar. In a surprise to nobody, the veterans still outperformed less skilled people who were flying more upgraded or mastered ships. I can and have gone into many matches in stock ships (while building alts on new servers) and contributed very positively to my team's effort. Other veteran pilots have had the same experience.

I just wrote a guide with ACTUAL advice. New players should read it, and develop their skills, not be propped up with gear they can't even use effectively.

The only real solution to a better new player experience is that we get enough people playing that new pilots are matched against their peers and not against 'whoever is queuing if you manage to scrape together at least 8 people'.

Despon

As I stated, which you did not read, the bolster system would allow new players to survive longer than a few seconds. They can't put your guide to use if they're getting picked off by those Aces who fly around the capital ships. They can't put your guide to use if they can't even make it to the satellite. And, by the time the 6 hours is up, they should have learned enough to know the basics, and possibly put your guide to use.

With all aspects of this game, you'll have players who have been here for years and still do not know how the turrets spawn, just as you have players who have no idea how to pass the Huttball.

There are a lot of new players who complain about the difficulty of their first many games.

There's a lot of anyone who complain about anything on the net, but players new to pvp losing in pvp is good design.

Then, there are the elitists who state that "Skill > Gear."

Skill isn't > gear, it's at least an order of magnitude more impactful. Skill >> Gear.

This is a one-sided, blind argument based on a false assumption.

It's not one-sided, because the experienced players have all rolled a ton of stock ships across all servers, and have played both mastered ships, stock ships, and everything in between, a whole lot. Veterans of the game have seen every side of this situation, and we all know how good gear is, and how good skill is.

A one-sided argument is "I need bolster, because I lose." or "I need gear because I don't have it". That's one sided because that guy isn't playing ships of different req levels enough to know what he's saying. He literally only has one side of experience.

The issue is that there will rarely be a time in which the opposing team does not have an Ace.

Let me first dispute that there is always at least two aces per match, or even all that often. That is false.

While I don't want to turn this into an ace debate, it's very clear that the term ace is reserved for pilots of high skill. With that obvious fact in mind:

(For those players arguing as such, put yourself in a ground PvP and PvE situation--fresh 60s with no PvP gear versus a 60 in full 174 augmented gear or a level 60 with 172 gear going into ToS HM.)

You immediately make a terrible comparison. This isn't the ground game, it doesn't have a gear treadmill, and gear isn't the focus. The damage, health, and healing magnitude between the example you JUST CHOSE vastly DWARFS that offered by gear in GSF. It's a terrible comparison because it takes a small number greater than one (the damage increase for having a properly reqqed ship) and compares it to a huge multiplier (the damage increase for having a bunch of stats in pve), and then says "and you can clearly see, neither of these numbers are one. Therefore, they are the same number."

Nonsense!

Also note- an ace has skill. A geared pvper or pveer likely has skill, but it is not guaranteed. An enemy with a mastered ship has at least played for a while, but just as gear is no guarantee of underlying skill in the ground game, the same is certainly true in GSF. Moreso in GSF, because all req can be acquired solo, whereas much of the ground game gear sort of needs a team to put together, and teams do push out players that dramatically hold them back.

Take two of the same player **insert your idea of a best player here** and put them in separate ships--one a fully upgraded Sting and the other a stock Blackbolt. Can anyone honestly tell me that, with the same skills, he would even have a chance to win with the Blackbolt?

Of course not. But this proves nothing. If your question is "do you need req on ships to play at the top level", yes of course you do. You are changing the goalposts every other sentence. You started talking about NEW PLAYERS. New players aren't good at GSF. They float about like confused hamburgers. We call them foodships for a reason. Gear is not their problem. The fact that you couldn't go against the top solo build flown by a top tier pilot in a stock ship doesn't say anything about the new player experience. You don't load into GSF for your first time, always against some amazing battlescout streamer, and then have a popup say: "Your goal for this game is to eliminate, in solo combat, this one enemy guy who has played 1000+ games more than you."

If the game did that, sure. Maybe we could talk about boosting baddies, or preventing that from happening. But that's not a game mode.

The real reason your idea is unworkable is that it would start players (or much worse and exploitable, characters) with a type of flight that doesn't exist anywhere else. They will learn nothing until the buff wears off, because they'll be learning to play with a buff that they won't have ever again. Additionally, the much more common situation is that a new player fights against a player with a few games, or several games, but not any kind of ace. Why does he get the drop on his peers this way? He should get destroyed utterly by the ace, but he should also lose a close 1v1 versus those of similar but slightly advanced skill.

It's not a good idea. Any bolster idea is pretty bad, and it's a damned shame that they couldn't do their numbers correctly on the ground game such that they ended up ever needing bolster in the first place- not only is balancing the numbers the big task (that they skip out on) in an RPG combat situation, but it also creates a false expectation in the playerbase. Bolster would be terrible for GSF.

This is a solution that I feel will allow players to stay involved in GSF rather than play once and never hit that queue again.

Nah. It'll just have a bunch of characters complaining that their buff juice ran out, and they can't get any more. Or creating fresh accounts repeatedly to get the buff juice because they like having an advantage over their other foodship opponents, who are most of what they are fighting. Instead of your ship rapidly increasing in power (and remember, stock ships are only played for a few games- the first upgrades are huge and cost almost nothing), instead it would rapidly decrease.

It would be awful.

As I stated, which you did not read, the bolster system would allow new players to survive longer than a few seconds. They can't put your guide to use if they're getting picked off by those Aces who fly around the capital ships. They can't put your guide to use if they can't even make it to the satellite. And, by the time the 6 hours is up, they should have learned enough to know the basics, and possibly put your guide to use.

I did read your post, and disagree that it is a solution that would help.

If a pilot has no idea what they are doing, it takes very little time for someone who -does- know what they are doing to blow them up. This is proven over and over again. Having that extra second (which is about all it would buy) is not going to teach anything meaningful. Learning the game, doing some reading, and watching videos to explain how things are done will improve people's survival rate beyond any temporary bolster period to give a crutch for their confidence to lean on will.

It's a moot point anyway, because Bioware is not going to implement any system like that which would have to interact with a number of game mechanics already in place. They have spared zero resources on GSF development for an entire year, and this whole Strike Buff thing is likely to be as uncomplicated as they can possibly make it unless they dramatically alter course from the one they have been on.

Focus your efforts on achievable, immediate help. New pilots need to learn the game and maintain a thick enough skin to get through that initial phase of having no clue whats going on.

Despon

I will also reiterate that if GSF had cross server (and ground pvp could benefit a lot as well), it could make much better matches. That's the correct answer.

That is 100% correct. The more players that we can get into the same matchmaking pool, the more likely it is that matches of teams with evenly equipped and experienced pilots will be made.

Lately, many pilots from GSF-dead small servers like POT5 have been migrating to Ebon Hawk and Harbinger. It has improved the overall level of play and made even matches more likely. From a purely GSF perspective (I can't speak about raiding or ground PvP) I wish they would just merge servers down to one or two East Coast and West Coast options.

Despon

I feel as though, before any further comments are made, anyone posting should answer this question: Why do MMOs implement a Bolster system in PvP? Why do some MMOs implement a Bolster system in PvE raiding?

That's the purpose of this content. It's not to promote your extended typing skills. It's not to promote your "guides." I understand, fully, that some people will just never be able to play. But, the reason I suggest the Bolster system is to allow those who would play, and have potential for skill, to be able to hop in a match on farm night and survive longer than normal.

If the time needs to be reduced (2 hours?) then that's doable. If the damage reduction needs to be more, then that could be doable. The point is to allow new players (those who have no skill) to be able to ENJOY their first few GSF matches.

You guys are fighting to keep a system in place which clearly pushes new players out of the GSF community.

It's not to promote your "guides."

...

You guys are fighting to keep a system in place which clearly pushes new players out of the GSF community.

The point of me making a guide was to help people who are new to GSF understand the systems and forces they will have to contend with. I do not stand to gain anything from it, it's a thread on this forum, free for anyone with the sole goal of presenting people concrete advice that will help them contribute to their team and improve personal experience.

The system that is in place is the one we must deal with. We (the relatively small and monetarily insignificant GSF community) do not control what Bioware spends its resources on. We have to deal with what is here. And what is here is really pretty good, though flawed. Working within that framework is what will most help GSF.

Despon

I'm not opposed to the idea but also I know it won't help. No bolster can compensate for the experience veteran pilots gained over time.

That's exactly my point. It will help. Again, why do MMOs implement Bolster systems in PvP?

It will allow them to survive longer. What good is a guide on how to lock missiles if they do not have the time to do so?

If you guys paid attention to the non-GSF community, you would hear nearly every single complaint --- "GSF Sucks because I die."

Not all players like GSF. However, there are many who like the idea of GSF. Is it really so disgusting to suggest an idea that would allow players to live a little bit longer?

Yes, Cross-server would allow for faster queues. It would mingle more players together. But, that still does nothing for the person who started yesterday and hit H on the keyboard for the first time.

The system that is in place is the one we must deal with. We (the relatively small and monetarily insignificant GSF community) do not control what Bioware spends its resources on. We have to deal with what is here. And what is here is really pretty good, though flawed. Working within that framework is what will most help GSF.

 

Despon

The system in place is not one with which we must deal. My main argument is, again, for the 3rd or 4th time, "Why do MMOs implement a Bolster system in PvP?"

The system in place is not one with which we must deal.

Yeah, it kind of is, unless you are the budgeting director for Bioware and can command them to allocate resources to GSF development, this is what we get. No amount of forum posting will change that.

Your bolster plan has good intentions. It won't help. This isn't ground PvP, it isn't PvE. GSF is its own thing with its own set of expectations, demands and mechanics. Things that would actually help new players are 1. better tutorial material in-game (which has long been argued for) and 2. more players playing so new people aren't matched against teams of veterans. Bolster is unnecessary and would not help the root of the problem.

Despon

So, Despon, I can ask a 5th time because I'm patient.

Why do MMOs implement a Bolster system in PvP and in some PvE? Why do they do that? Can you, without bringing up your guide, answer me that question? If you cannot, or simply cannot read, I can attempt another way to try to communicate with you. I have Skype. I know sign language. I can even ask in German. However you want me to make it easier, I can comply. I'm done discussing this with you until you can answer me that question.

So, Despon, I can ask a 5th time because I'm patient.

 

Why do MMOs implement a Bolster system in PvP and in some PvE? Why do they do that? Can you, without bringing up your guide, answer me that question? If you cannot, or simply cannot read, I can attempt another way to try to communicate with you. I have Skype. I know sign language. I can even ask in German. However you want me to make it easier, I can comply. I'm done discussing this with you until you can answer me that question.

They might do that if they are poorly designed and don't want to address the underlying problems that make such a system in their eyes necessary.

And I'm done discussing this with you, period, because you are not interested in discussion, you are interested in being certain that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Good luck with that.

Despon

I regret my sarcasm. I can completely understand the challenge in creating a bolster system for GSF. I know it won't happen tomorrow.

My post thread is entitled "New player solution" because I feel that Bolster is an idea that should be considered. It would not give players immediate super powers, but it can help those who might become regular players play more than one match.

And, the only thing I've been doing is trying to have you answer my question. There is no right or wrong in that.

I don't have a problem with some kind of bolster in GSF. Not at face value, anyway.

Attrition in GSF is high. There's still a lot of life left in it, but dammit, something should be done to get more pilots flying (or keep old pilots flying, that's a big part of the problem too). Cross-server is probably preferable, though--a much larger player pool would do a lot for levelling the asteroid field--er, playing field.

I think you could put a brand new pilot in a full upgraded ship and they would still crash and burn just as fast, a bolster buff wouldn't make a difference there.

So, someone with level 60 Bolster in Huttball can still have no clue how to pick up or pass the ball. That is irrelevant. I suppose I can ask you the same question that I've been repeatedly asking throughout this argument--Why do MMOs implement a Bolster system for PvP and some PvE?

I don't have a problem with some kind of bolster in GSF. Not at face value, anyway.

 

Attrition in GSF is high. There's still a lot of life left in it, but dammit, something should be done to get more pilots flying (or keep old pilots flying, that's a big part of the problem too). Cross-server is probably preferable, though--a much larger player pool would do a lot for levelling the asteroid field--er, playing field.

I agree that cross-server would be the best plan. However, they've all but said cross-server will not happen. Cross-faction may be an idea, but we've yet to see if that will include GSF. They implemented Bolster for ground PvP, so I can assume that a GSF Bolster is highly likely.

 

Would a bolster system prevent new pilots from flying slowly in a straight line at a target and unleashing their furious maxxed burst lasers from 10k out? Would a bolster system direct new pilots to correctly defend a satellite when they are instead fighting out in the middle of empty space? Would a bolster system teach a new pilot the value of sticking with their team instead of freelancing wantonly with no regard to the tactical situation in a match? Would it teach them to lock missiles?

 

Despon

Despon, I have taken the time to read your guide. It provides no answers for your own questions, save one. Working as a team, and not going solo, is a good piece of advice, but even as a veteran it can be difficult to stay with the group. You cannot really judge distance, without looking at the minimap, to your team members. Maybe a solution to that would be to allow a distance meter, like on enemies, to allies, as well.

Iiezl, I don't have an answer for why Bolster is ever implemented in a ground game. Hell, I don't even understand the purpose of separate PvP gear or stats, I would much rather see players just have to use one set of gear and just deal with that.

I am however firmly in the belief that a bolster system will not work in GSF because a bolster will not actually teach them anything about the combat. Unlike the ground game, where when you tab to your target and all of your attacks home in on them, GSF is incredibly dependent on how well you can keep your crosshairs on the lead indicator, and how well you can keep that enemy lead indicator focused in the center of your screen so that you have the most accuracy. Missiles are dependent upon keeping a target in small faintly visible circle inside another circle until you can get a lock and release (and even then your missiles might not hit if they use a missile break). Add in that people are trying to do the same things to you and so you are trying to dodge and avoid them as much as possible, and it becomes even more challenging.

A bolster would pad their stats, make them a little tougher, live longer etc. But it doesn't actually teach a new player the skills to fight or survive. It wont teach them about tracking penalties or missile breaks, it won't teach them about evasion or armor or the importance of crew skills. Without these skills their still going to die to the veterans and aces of GSF and not understand why or what happened.

In my opinion, the best thing Devs could do for new players is to expand and improve upon the existing Tutorial so that it covers more of the gameplay and information; to teach them the skills they need, not just how to fire their lasers with the left mouse button.

Iiezl, I don't have an answer for why Bolster is ever implemented in a ground game. Hell, I don't even understand the purpose of separate PvP gear or stats, I would much rather see players just have to use one set of gear and just deal with that.

 

I am however firmly in the belief that a bolster system will not work in GSF because a bolster will not actually teach them anything about the combat. Unlike the ground game, where when you tab to your target and all of your attacks home in on them, GSF is incredibly dependent on how well you can keep your crosshairs on the lead indicator, and how well you can keep that enemy lead indicator focused in the center of your screen so that you have the most accuracy. Missiles are dependent upon keeping a target in small faintly visible circle inside another circle until you can get a lock and release (and even then your missiles might not hit if they use a missile break).

 

A bolster would pad their stats, make them a little tougher, live longer etc. But it doesn't actually teach a new player the skills to fight or survive. It wont teach them about tracking penalties or missile breaks, it won't teach them about evasion or armor or the importance of crew skills. Without these skills their still going to die to the veterans and aces of GSF and not understand why or what happened.

 

In my opinion, the best thing Devs could do for new players is to expand and improve upon the existing Tutorial so that it covers more of the gameplay and information; to teach them the skills they need, not just how to fire their lasers with the left mouse button.

Cynfor, I appreciate your comment and agree that the tutorial is lacking.

However, the point of the Bolster would be to allow the new players to live longer. They can't practice too well in the tutorial. A live game is the only real practice they will have. I'm not suggesting a permanent bolster, but a limited bolster that self-removes over A. time played B. kills made C. requisition gained. The idea would be so that they could live longer and practice more rather than die 7 times and ragequit--never to queue again.

Every single one of us has had the game in which we were on a team of eight 5-shippers versus eight 2-shippers. Not one of us has ever thought, "Oh my God. This is going to be a wipe fest. They're all Aces in disguise."

The GSF community is great, with small exceptions, because everyone is helpful and considerate. Let us acknowledge the possibility that it can include in-game, too.

As I can see, there are a lot of people who are under the impression that suggesting a Bolster system will improve skill and knowledge. That is not the case. That is not the point of this thread.

Look at it from a ground PvP point-of-view: How can anyone learn Huttball if the other team will not let them off of the ledge? If they cannot survive long enough to reach the Huttball, passing the ball is not the biggest issue.

Look at it from a PvE point-of-view: How can players in 172 gear possibly hope to kill Revan HM if they cannot get past the first boss? What do the mechanics of Revan matter if they're never seen?

It's time, fellas. It's time and survival that I'm suggesting. Time to allow the new, fresh players more opportunities to understand spacebar and locking missiles. More time = more knowledge and skill gained.

I regret my sarcasm.

Since you offered up a not-quite-an-apology for your tone in this thread, I will offer another comment:

If you transplanted a baby's brain into the body of LeBron James, that baby would not be any good at basketball because it would not know the rules, would not know how to be part of a team, and would not know how to shoot.

Learning the game (and teaching the game to those that will listen) will help new players more than any bolster system ever could.

Getting players to congregate on active servers is also a good way to help all levels of GSF'ers because it stands a better chance of pitting evenly matched teams against each other.

Despon