Well, maybe it is a little silly of me to want a certain level realism in a game with laser swords and all sorts of aliens and The Force. But the birthrate in Star Wars was already downright anemic long before any gay person existed in the canon. Where did all these trillions of people come from if nobody ever produces more than two kids?

Decanting. Obviously.

Well, maybe it is a little silly of me to want a certain level realism in a game with laser swords and all sorts of aliens and The Force. But the birthrate in Star Wars was already downright anemic long before any gay person existed in the canon. Where did all these trillions of people come from if nobody ever produces more than two kids?

Well, no one's saying people don't reproduce and/or aren't into having opposite-sex interactions (gay people can also reproduce, btw).

My point is that there's a lot that happens to the PC that's 'extra-ordinary' including the type of people they meet and travel with (and possibly hook up with)....I'm not sure why the focus goes on 'too many same-sex options when talking about 'realism'.

You don't have to do any of the SGR options if you think that having so many is unrealistic. Similarly, you don't have to do all the OGR options if you think having too many of those is unrealistic. I mean, every female that travels with a PC is romantically available for males...'real life' isn't quite like that. I don't see guys complaining that there are too many female options for their male character and that this is 'unrealistic' b/c irl they don't nearly have nearly that many options.

This game is like that b/c it's fantasy and escapism. The romances are for 'fun' and some people like to do them so they are there for them. I'm not sure how you can justify limiting SGR options considering that.

Well, no one's saying people don't reproduce and/or aren't into having opposite-sex interactions (gay people can also reproduce, btw).

 

My point is that there's a lot that happens to the PC that's 'extra-ordinary' including the type of people they meet and travel with (and possibly hook up with)....I'm not sure why the focus goes on 'too many same-sex options when talking about 'realism'.

 

You don't have to do any of the SGR options if you think that having so many is unrealistic. Similarly, you don't have to do all the OGR options if you think having too many of those is unrealistic. I mean, every female that travels with a PC is romantically available for males...'real life' isn't quite like that. This game is like that b/c it's fantasy and escapism. The romances are for 'fun' and some people like to do them so they are there for them. I'm not sure how you can justify limiting SGR options considering that.

Because the use of realism was the arguement for SGR. That's why the focus goes to it.

Also, on the realism topic... we still laugh at Padme being elected Queen, and at the circumstances surrounding Anakin's conception (which I won't get into here because of spoilers and stupidity), among other things in the movies that don't make any sense.

So, yes, there a is a minimum level of realism needed, even in Star Wars.

Also, on the realism topic... we still laugh at Padme being elected Queen, and at the circumstances surrounding Anakin's conception (which I won't get into here because of spoilers and stupidity).

 

So, yes, there a is a minimum level of realism needed, even in Star Wars.

Anakin being a miracle birth by "the force" is a spoiler? o.O

Also, on the realism topic... we still laugh at Padme being elected Queen, and at the circumstances surrounding Anakin's conception (which I won't get into here because of spoilers and stupidity).

Do we?

It's likely Naboo had a tradition of monarchy, but at some point in their history had a political revolution. Instead of overthrowing the idea of a monarch entirely, they implemented a system of having elected officials. The monarch becomes the elected head of state, much like Presidents are in republics. It's not ludicrous in the least, it's a title which has a different meaning in Earth culture, is all. Much like female Sith are still Lords and Darths; they're not Darthesses.

Anakin being a miracle birth by "the force" is a spoiler? o.O

Okay, so it's more the stupidity angle.

Okay, so it's more the stupidity angle.

I don't see what's so stupid about an elected head of state having a very traditional title associated with their position.

Oh, you were talking to SK. Is that some George Lucas weird, pseudo-religious EU thing?

Yeah, sorry about not adding that quote to my comment before you could respond.

I think Lucas was overreaching in an attempt to show us that Anakin was supposed to be the equivalent of Jesus but then went bad. So, yeah, some pseudo-religious thing.

Also, on the realism topic... we still laugh at Padme being elected Queen, and at the circumstances surrounding Anakin's conception (which I won't get into here because of spoilers and stupidity), among other things in the movies that don't make any sense.

 

So, yes, there a is a minimum level of realism needed, even in Star Wars.

I don't know, I think you could say the same about any work of fiction. People like to pick them apart XD

It's subjective. Some of these things bother certain people but others don't care. I don't think you can base an argument along the lines of 'X shouldn't happen in a story/game b/c it's unrealistic' first and foremost because there are always going to be things included that are unrealistic and the only question is, what unrealistic things will certain people tolerate while others criticize and make fun of. Like Anakin's conception....lots of people don't bat an eye over it while it really bothers others. You could possibly argue that this shouldn't have been included for a variety of reasons but I don't think 'realism' is the issue.

I don't see what's so stupid about an elected head of state having a very traditional title associated with their position.

 

Oh, you were talking to SK. Is that some George Lucas weird, pseudo-religious EU thing?

Less religion, and just saying Anakin didn't have a father, but just a mother who concieved him by the force.

I thought the Amidala being an elected queen had more to do with her age at election (13 or 15), than the title, but I could have misread that.

Yeah, sorry about not adding that quote to my comment before you could respond.

 

I think Lucas was overreaching in an attempt to show us that Anakin was supposed to be the equivalent of Jesus but then went bad. So, yeah, some pseudo-religious thing.

Well, he's not involved in things anymore, so hopefully the Star Wars Universe will start making sense within itself again. It's the thing about fiction - we expect there to be a certain set of rules that the fictional universe adheres to and which are constants, but we also expect that anything that is human, or is representative of humans, act in a recognisably human manner. And then add to that, that this is a game, which is even further removed from the basis of either aforementioned things (e.g. a Sith Pureblood should have a greater start in life and be given more respect and more "stuff" than a force sensitive human or alien) because of a basis of fun and detachment from reality.

I guess you could call it doublethink, if you really wanted, but I think it's more the conscious decision of recognising the elements required to maintain the story and basis for the Universe in question and then having to find what can be altered to allow for an enjoyable gameplay experience.

I'm reminded of someone's rant posted to the EscherGirls tumblr recently, in which the woman said she did not like reading fictional women's struggles against sexism and misogyny in escapist fiction, because she has to deal with that everyday. Escapist fiction should be escapist for everyone - if that means suspending the percentages of reality so that LGB players can have a game where they don't have to be reminded every other step that they are a marginalised group, then I don't see a problem with that.

Would you be okay with making straight people feel marginalized here? Because that's exactly what would happen if the game were perceived as "too gay".

Think about the uproar that occurred when Makeb was dubbed "the gay planet".

Now, imagine one class ended up having more same-sex flirt options than opposite-sex ones. Do you really think that class wouldn't come to be known as "the gay class"? Many straight people would begin to feel uncomfortable playing that class. We'd lose a lot of tanks and/or healers as a result.

Take it a step further. Imagine every class had more same-sex flirts than opposite-sex ones. Do you think "the gay MMO" would pull in as many players as TOR does now? I don't. I think we'd lose, oh, probably at least half of the game's population.

Now, you can say, "Good, we're better off without all those poopy homophobes, anyway," but are you prepared to make that decision on BioWare's behalf? Would you cut your own income in half on that principle?

Keep in mind, too, that those quitters wouldn't necessarily be homophobes. Some would just be concerned that people might think they're something they aren't. Some would just feel uncomfortable doing something that feels gay to them, while having absolutely nothing against gay people themselves. Some would object to the feeling that there's a political agenda being shoved down their throats (which ties in with your point about that woman who doesn't want to read feminist novels, Tatile). Some would simply see their guilds' numbers plummeting, and decide they don't have much reason to keep logging in.

If each of those groups is a mere 10% of the game's population, that's 40% gone right there, not even counting the actual homophobes.

Would you be okay with making straight people feel marginalized here? Because that's exactly what would happen if the game were perceived as "too gay".

 

Think about the uproar that occurred when Makeb was dubbed "the gay planet".

 

Now, imagine one class ended up having more same-sex flirt options than opposite-sex ones. Do you really think that class wouldn't come to be known as "the gay class"? Many straight people would begin to feel uncomfortable playing that class. We'd lose a lot of tanks and/or healers as a result.

 

Take it a step further. Imagine every class had more same-sex flirts than opposite-sex ones. Do you think "the gay MMO" would pull in as many players as TOR does now? I don't. I think we'd lose, oh, probably at least half of the game's population.

 

Now, you can say, "Good, we're better off without all those poopy homophobes, anyway," but are you prepared to make that decision on BioWare's behalf? Would you cut your own income in half on that principle?

 

Keep in mind, too, that those quitters wouldn't necessarily be homophobes. Some would just be concerned that people might think they're something they aren't. Some would just feel uncomfortable doing something that feels gay to them, while having absolutely nothing against gay people themselves. Some would object to the feeling that there's a political agenda being shoved down their throats (which ties in with your point about that woman who doesn't want to read feminist novels, Tatile). Some would simply see their guilds' numbers plummeting, and decide they don't have much reason to keep logging in.

 

If each of those groups is a mere 10% of the game's population, that's 40% gone right there, not even counting the actual homophobes.

1) No one's arguing for more SGR than OGR.

2) That would never happen.

3) . . . like, ever.

Now, imagine one class ended up having more same-sex flirt options than opposite-sex ones. Do you really think that class wouldn't come to be known as "the gay class"? Many straight people would begin to feel uncomfortable playing that class. We'd lose a lot of tanks and/or healers as a result.

 

Take it a step further. Imagine every class had more same-sex flirts than opposite-sex ones. Do you think "the gay MMO" would pull in as many players as TOR does now? I don't. I think we'd lose, oh, probably at least half of the game's population.

Your hypothetical situations are ludicrous, because there's no chance in Jotunheim that same-sex flirt options spread between all eight classes, which already have opposite-sex flirts and romances, could lead to one being referred to as "the gay class" even if the balance for it somehow tipped in favor of the same-sex ones.

Same situation for the game itself. Not to mention that The Secret World has had same-sex romantic/sexual interactions since it was released, and no one has made a fuss about that.

And I suspect you're projecting. And that you have no idea just how uninvolved a majority of the players are with the larger community.

Keep in mind, too, that those quitters wouldn't necessarily be homophobes. Some would just be concerned that people might think they're something they aren't. Some would just feel uncomfortable doing something that feels gay to them, while having absolutely nothing against gay people themselves. Some would object to the feeling that there's a political agenda being shoved down their throats (which ties in with your point about that woman who doesn't want to read feminist novels, Tatile). Some would simply see their guilds' numbers plummeting, and decide they don't have much reason to keep logging in.

That's funny, because having an irrational fear of being thought of as homosexual sounds a lot like homophobia to me. Not outright gay-hate, but still homophobia. And the people who complain about "political agendas" in social justice situations are, quite frankly, enormous idiots and/or bigots trying to mask their bigotry with a flimsy excuse.

I've had plenty of people on the Internet thinking I'm a woman, and I don't correct them. I'm pretty sure my brother-in-law thinks I'm gay, and I'm completely fine with that too.

I'd damn well rather have a fair game that makes a few 'phobes insecure about their sexualities than an unfair breeding ground for heterosexism.

Let's be honest, since the majority of Players are young, straight white males, I doubt we will see an equal amount of SGRs, even on the girl/girl side.

No, if we're going to be honest, the reason we'll never see an equal amount of SGRs is because BioWare Austin dropped the ball during pre-release development. EA now wants to see maximized profits with minimized development costs, and our only real chance of seeing an equal playing field is if the old lv.1-50 content is retooled.

Retooling old content and min-maxing costs-to-profits are two things that don't seem particularly compatible.

1) No one's arguing for more SGR than OGR.

2) That would never happen.

3) . . . like, ever.

Always wonder why people take a hypothetical and say "That would never happen."

It's a hypothetical. Hypothetically it could go either way. And that answer doesn't answer the question, which is a pretty straight foward, yes or no question.

Of course, I don't see BW actually doing that hypothetical. What I do see them doing is making herosexual companions to sell on the cartel market!

Your hypothetical situations are ludicrous, because there's no chance in Jotunheim that same-sex flirt options spread between all eight classes, which already have opposite-sex flirts and romances, could lead to one being referred to as "the gay class" even if the balance for it somehow tipped in favor of the same-sex ones.

If class stories are indeed being dropped, and there's going to be more of an effort to make things "balance out" in the future, then some classes may very well end up having more same-sex flirt options than opposite-sex ones. Those will be the "gay classes".

Same situation for the game itself. Not to mention that The Secret World has had same-sex romantic/sexual interactions since it was released, and no one has made a fuss about that.

Is there romance in The Secret World? I remember that Dragon players, regardless of gender, have sex with a female prostitute in their prologue. That's the closest thing I know of to romance. If that's the only sexual encounter in the entire game (and I think it is), then big whoop. That's not a relevant example, and it does nothing for your argument.

And I suspect you're projecting. And that you have no idea just how uninvolved a majority of the players are with the larger community.

What am I projecting, exactly? By all means, please, analyze me, Dr. Freud. But keep in mind that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. By the way, I'm pretty sure "a majority of players" is "the larger community". Or do words not mean the same to you as they do to me?

That's funny, because having an irrational fear of being thought of as homosexual sounds a lot like homophobia to me. Not outright gay-hate, but still homophobia. And the people who complain about "political agendas" in social justice situations are, quite frankly, enormous idiots and/or bigots trying to mask their bigotry with a flimsy excuse.

A lot of women won't date a man if they think he might be gay. Does not wanting every one of those women to reject you out of hand make you a homophobe? Does it somehow make those women horrible? Why? Because they don't want to date a dude who might leave them for another dude? And what "social justice situations" are you talking about? This is a game. Escapist entertainment. A lot of people don't want politics in their escapist entertainment, as Tatile has already pointed out (while arguing against me, might I add).

I've had plenty of people on the Internet thinking I'm a woman, and I don't correct them. I'm pretty sure my brother-in-law thinks I'm gay, and I'm completely fine with that too.

Do you really want to go there? Brother-in-law. Really? That seems like a big deal to you? I'll bet he doesn't even hate you. I'll tell you what... just drop the pretense that this gives you any sort of moral authority over me. Or else... I'll have to tell you why it doesn't. And you wouldn't want that. Oh, and by the way, I play mostly female characters in these games, so you being mistaken for a girl online also means nothing to me.

I'd damn well rather have a fair game that makes a few 'phobes insecure about their sexualities than an unfair breeding ground for heterosexism.

Oh, yeah, go ahead and drive off all the people you disagree with on anything, and watch this game quickly become unprofitable and get shut down. After all, you're not the one who'd lose money over it.

Would you be okay with making straight people feel marginalized here? Because that's exactly what would happen if the game were perceived as "too gay".

 

Think about the uproar that occurred when Makeb was dubbed "the gay planet".

 

Now, imagine one class ended up having more same-sex flirt options than opposite-sex ones. Do you really think that class wouldn't come to be known as "the gay class"? Many straight people would begin to feel uncomfortable playing that class. We'd lose a lot of tanks and/or healers as a result.

kinda like how mass effect and dragon age are "the gay rpgs" that totally flopped, right? oh wait.

or maybe it's like when 'the L word', 'noah's ark', 'queer as folk', and 'will & grace' were on TV and all the straight viewers felt marginalized and didn't watch.... oh wait.

or when brokeback mtn or a single man were "those gay movies" that no one saw...

oh wait.

relax. pretty sure no one cares or even thinks about whether you're gay or not.

kinda like how mass effect and dragon age are "the gay rpgs" that totally flopped, right? oh wait.

 

or maybe it's like when 'the L word', 'noah's ark', 'queer as folk', and 'will & grace' were on TV and all the straight viewers felt marginalized and didn't watch.... oh wait.

 

or when brokeback mtn or a single man were "those gay movies" that no one saw...

 

oh wait.

 

relax. pretty sure no one cares or even thinks about whether you're gay or not.

So, you're saying the Mass Effect and Dragon Age games have MORE same-sex flirt options than opposite-sex ones? I don't think that's true.

Also, you neglected to mention Six Feet Under. IMO, David was the coolest and most likeable character on that show, so you're doing him a grave injustice (EDIT: no pun intended).

By the way:

Real gay people criticized The L Word for being "too glamorous". It portrayed a Penthouse Forum version of lesbianism.

Noah's Arc flopped.

Queer As Folk flopped.

Will & Grace did well, I have to admit. I like Debra Messing, so this makes me happy.

Brokeback Mountain pulled in $178 million at the box office. Not bad. Not a blockbuster, but better than I'd have expected.

A Single Man pulled in $24 million at the box office. That's a flop.

So, you're saying the Mass Effect and Dragon Age games have MORE same-sex flirt options than opposite-sex ones? I don't think that's true.

 

Also, you neglected to mention Six Feet Under. IMO, David was the coolest and most likeable character on that show, so you're doing him a grave injustice (EDIT: no pun intended).

 

By the way:

Real gay people criticized The L Word for being "too glamorous". It portrayed a Penthouse Forum version of lesbianism.

Noah's Arc flopped.

Queer As Folk flopped.

Will & Grace did well, I have to admit. I like Debra Messing, so this makes me happy.

Brokeback Mountain pulled in $178 million at the box office. Not bad. Not a blockbuster, but better than I'd have expected.

A Single Man pulled in $24 million at the box office. That's a flop.

And Brokeback took in that much because of the hype more than anything. It really wasn't that great of a movie. With a lot of positive reviews being about it's scenery. But it also came out in a different time. But a great movie, it was not.

So, you're saying the Mass Effect games have MORE same-sex flirt options than opposite-sex ones? I don't think that's true.

 

Also, you neglected to mention Six Feet Under. IMO, David was the coolest and most likeable character on that show, so you're doing him a grave injustice (EDIT: no pun intended).

 

By the way:

Real gay people criticized The L Word for being "too glamorous". It portrayed a Penthouse Forum version of lesbianism.

Noah's Arc flopped.

Queer As Folk flopped.

Will & Grace did well, I have to admit. I like Debra Messing, so this makes me happy.

Brokeback Mountain pulled in $178 million at the box office. Not bad. Not a blockbuster, but better than I'd have expected.

A Single Man pulled in $24 million at the box office. That's a flop.

Don't think straight people the world over were threatened by any of these, don't think they rushed out to make more "straight" flix to compensate. Pretty sure L Word and Queer As Folk went on for many seasons, QAF even going so far as to have 2 (or more?) separate entries from different countries. Wouldn't consider that a flop in my book. BUT... not really my point anyway. That's fine if you chose to miss it, I expected as much.

Gonna step out now. Was almost amused by your post at first... now it just makes me sad. I'll never understand the hysterics people put themselves into over such harmlessness.

I guess so-called "straight" movies and "straight" TV series NEVER flop...

Seems like a weak argument.

Anyways, it's just a game so I don't think any RATIONAL person needs to worry about being changed

by the buttons the will never click.

I guess so-called "straight" movies and "straight" TV series NEVER flop...

Seems like a weak argument.

Anyways, it's just a game so I don't think any RATIONAL person needs to worry about being changed

by the buttons the will never click.

I personally think that the only TV show that has any sign of lesbianism that did well is Lost Girl (Show about a bisexual Succubus). I have not watched the current Season, but I know that it has the main character and the Doctor chick together.

still does not look good for gays/lesbians in the media.